Rogue PvP Openers: Then vs. Now

[shoegazing]

I had so much respect for you, and your opinion on this forum, right up until I saw this post. Just.. Wauw

OT: I feel that Rogues have indeed been pruned too much, and I am quite sure that Blizzard is aware of the issues that Subtlety and all rogue specs in general are facing these days. Blizzard will probably make heavy changes in 7.2.5, and with enough feedback we might be able to have a say in their decisions (this is optimistic I know)

What Blizzard tried, is to have a big focus on class, and spec differences and to make it fit their intended fantasy. This is something that I personally really appreciate. Every spec feels unique in visuals, animations, rotations and general feel, which is a HUGE succes imo. However, this does have a price, which was the pruning to allow (in your own words) noobs, 1600 mouthbreathers and people who want to smash their face on the keyboard to experience and participate in casual PvP which they succeded at. Blizzard reached their goal, now it's time for them to perfect the imperfect and this is where your and other Rogue's feedback comes into play.

Also.. Be nice..

I have zero interest in "being nice" to people who applaud the dumbing down of the class that I have loved for 12 years.

There were already 2 other rogue specs which were perfectly accessible for windowlickers to play. The class didn't need a 3rd one.

I refuse to sit here and be told "go play a different spec if you want complexity" by some 1600 windowlicker that never even played Subtlety before this expansion. Fuck that noise, Subtlety was that spec for most of the last 12 years and it should remain that way.

The class is so painfully fucking boring now. I just want the option to play a Cata/MoP/WoD style subtlety rogue once again.

[Resentless]

Sub was the highest skill cap spec in the game before Blizzard's D3 devs got their hands on it and trashed it for retards like you to play

I have played a Sub rogue as my main for 12 years so YOU fuck off. You go play a death knight or a demon hunter if you want to smash your face on your keyboard and do big damage you useless 1600 mouthbreather.

I bet you never even played Sub before Legion deleted half of the buttons and made it so retard friendly, noob.

How you didnt get infracted for this I dont know. I played sub in cata, when in pve it was considered the hardest spec to master. PvP'd as sub in that expansion when everyone and their dog thought they were reckful when they blind->sapped->shadow dance resap-> or smoke bomb into sap or some other bullshit easy shit. This game IS NOT DIFFICULT. It has NEVER been difficult on an individual level. The "skill" in this game, like every online team game ever, is how you interact with your teammates and how good they are. The only games in which individual skill has ever mattered despite playing with a team are fps and rts games. WoW isnt one of those. An mmo cannot be one of those. It never will be. Neither are MOBAs or anything with pvp even remotely similar to wows. Heroes of the storm isnt, league of legends isnt. The best players in LoL are good because they can master the games mechanics in whatever state it is, but most importantly, they are 100x better than all the other players that ARE NOT GOOD at the game. But WoW isnt difficult. It never has been. If you think fake casting or LoSing or chain cc-ing someone is skillful, you will be blown away by what people in starcraft and even warcraft 3 were doing.

Everyone lost abilities, but I dont see you getting glad despite how "dumbed down and easy" the game is. People said cata was dumbed down and easy compared to wotlk, which it was, yet all the stuff you talk about is from MoP and WoD, 2 of the most retard friendly expansions. MoP where every class had something ridiculous and anyone above 70 IQ could cc 1 player for 30 seconds solo. I see someone else here saying they felt like a god because they fake casted cyclones as feral..??????? is that what makes people feel skillful in this game? dear god. Skill is when you AND YOUR TEAMMATES completely outplay the enemy team, which you can still do in this expac all the time. This expac has the same level of skill as cata at least, even more when you consider the amount of "potential" abilities people have to learn. If youre gonna complain about the simplicity of your damage rotation, go complain on the rogue forums. If you are mad that you lost gouge and garrote so you cant use 3 buttons to cc someone for 15 seconds straight all on different DRs, you were spoilt for too long and carried by your overpowered class.

[shoegazing]

How you didnt get infracted for this I dont know. I played sub in cata, when in pve it was considered the hardest spec to master. PvP'd as sub in that expansion when everyone and their dog thought they were reckful when they blind->sapped->shadow dance resap-> or smoke bomb into sap or some other bullshit easy shit. This game IS NOT DIFFICULT. It has NEVER been difficult on an individual level. The "skill" in this game, like every online team game ever, is how you interact with your teammates and how good they are. The only games in which individual skill has ever mattered despite playing with a team are fps and rts games. WoW isnt one of those. An mmo cannot be one of those. It never will be. Neither are MOBAs or anything with pvp even remotely similar to wows. Heroes of the storm isnt, league of legends isnt. The best players in LoL are good because they can master the games mechanics in whatever state it is, but most importantly, they are 100x better than all the other players that ARE NOT GOOD at the game. But WoW isnt difficult. It never has been. If you think fake casting or LoSing or chain cc-ing someone is skillful, you will be blown away by what people in starcraft and even warcraft 3 were doing.

Everyone lost abilities, but I dont see you getting glad despite how "dumbed down and easy" the game is. People said cata was dumbed down and easy compared to wotlk, which it was, yet all the stuff you talk about is from MoP and WoD, 2 of the most retard friendly expansions. MoP where every class had something ridiculous and anyone above 70 IQ could cc 1 player for 30 seconds solo. I see someone else here saying they felt like a god because they fake casted cyclones as feral..??????? is that what makes people feel skillful in this game? dear god. Skill is when you AND YOUR TEAMMATES completely outplay the enemy team, which you can still do in this expac all the time. This expac has the same level of skill as cata at least, even more when you consider the amount of "potential" abilities people have to learn. If youre gonna complain about the simplicity of your damage rotation, go complain on the rogue forums. If you are mad that you lost gouge and garrote so you cant use 3 buttons to cc someone for 15 seconds straight all on different DRs, you were spoilt for too long and carried by your overpowered class.

It's not about mechanical skill it's about having tactical choices other than "press Cheap Shot 3 times because that's the only button left in my spellbook"

Obviously games like CS, Smash, Starcraft, and Rocket League have much more mechanical skill involved than WoW

But at least in prior versions of WoW I had decisions to make when playing my character

Now Shadow Dance is a maintenance buff that is used for spamming 2 buttons. it's "wait for stun DRs, then go" there is no more choice or thinking involved.

[Resentless]

It's not about mechanical skill it's about having tactical choices other than "press Cheap Shot 3 times because that's the only button left in my spellbook"

Obviously games like CS, Smash, Starcraft, and Rocket League have much more mechanical skill involved than WoW

But at least in prior versions of WoW I had decisions to make when playing my character

Now Shadow Dance is a maintenance buff that is used for spamming 2 buttons

So youre telling me you play rogue+mage in 2v2 at 2.3k mmr and you dont think it requires skill to pull it off? Even as the sub rogue? Sure as hell feels like it to me. Even moreso than in cata cause now I dont know what abilities my opponent has half the time. I need to be ready for EVERYTHING. Before you just had to know what to do, once. You didnt really have a choice. You garroted the casters/healers, into full kidney, into a shadow dance for ambushes. You stunned melee. The only time you would even bother changing it up was vs mages and hybrid dps where both silencing and stunning gave you a certain effect, but it was something you learned once and then you knew what to do and that was it. I remember dueling in the vale of eternal blossoms during s13-s14 every day, and each duel eventually just became methodical, rock paper scissors. They use x cooldown I use Y cooldown. They use A ability I use B defensive. You used different things for different people, but is that what made your class fun? I dunno man. I played mage too, and that has been dramatically changed from cata-legion in terms of playstyle, but it still feels like mage and I have all the tools i used to have. The core gameplay is still there for me, on every class they changed unless its like demo lock or sv hunter.

[shoegazing]

So youre telling me you play rogue+mage in 2v2 at 2.3k mmr and you dont think it requires skill to pull it off? Even as the sub rogue? Sure as hell feels like it to me. Even moreso than in cata cause now I dont know what abilities my opponent has half the time. I need to be ready for EVERYTHING. Before you just had to know what to do, once. You didnt really have a choice. You garroted the casters/healers, into full kidney, into a shadow dance for ambushes. You stunned melee. The only time you would even bother changing it up was vs mages and hybrid dps where both silencing and stunning gave you a certain effect, but it was something you learned once and then you knew what to do and that was it. I remember dueling in the vale of eternal blossoms during s13-s14 every day, and each duel eventually just became methodical, rock paper scissors. They use x cooldown I use Y cooldown. They use A ability I use B defensive. You used different things for different people, but is that what made your class fun? I dunno man. I played mage too, and that has been dramatically changed from cata-legion in terms of playstyle, but it still feels like mage and I have all the tools i used to have. The core gameplay is still there for me, on every class they changed unless its like demo lock or sv hunter.

rogue/mage in Legion = "stun healer, mage gets a polymorph, cheap dps 3x in frozen orb, run away and wait DRs, repeat"

there's no peeling for your teammate with garrote or dismantle or shiv

there's no setting up your burst damage with SnD, sang veins, & Find Weakness

there's no consideration of "can I gouge this guy or do I need to save poly DRs for my teammate"

there's no vanish-immuning incoming CC like blind or mortal coil or deep freeze

occasionally you get a map with a Z axis so you can jump off and call for your mage teammate to stand by the ledge so you can step up to them?

you cannot tell me with a straight face that Legion Subtlety AKA press cheap shot 3x the spec is anywhere near as satisfying to play as Cata sub was

look at this:



no legendary daggers, no heroic vial, just awesome and fun gameplay.

compared to other versions, Legion Sub has no poisons, no shiv, no Find Weakness windows, no buffs to juggle, no gouge, no garrote, no dismantle, no tricks of the trade, no disarm traps, no preparation, no premeditation, very limited reason to ever seek a restealth, no concept of ability relationships such as gouge warr --> zerker rage --> shiv dispel enrage --> priest teammate lands full fear

all there is left to this fucking trash is "press cheap shot 3x"

this fucking garbage does not deserve to be called a rogue anymore because it simply isn't one

[Resentless]

rogue/mage in Legion = "stun healer, mage gets a polymorph, cheap dps 3x in frozen orb, run away and wait DRs, repeat"

there's no peeling for your teammate with garrote or dismantle or shiv

there's no setting up your burst damage with SnD, sang veins, & Find Weakness

there's no consideration of "can I gouge this guy or do I need to save poly DRs for my teammate"

there's no vanish-immuning incoming CC like blind or mortal coil or deep freeze

occasionally you get a map with a Z axis so you can jump off and call for your mage teammate to stand by the ledge so you can step up to them?

you cannot tell me with a straight face that Legion Subtlety AKA press cheap shot 3x the spec is anywhere near as satisfying to play as Cata sub was

look at this:



no legendary daggers, no heroic vial, just awesome and fun gameplay.

The only thing there im sad to see go is shiv, cause having active application is always more interesting than passive auto attacks. The rest of it, especially the damage bit, really... snd you kept that up along with recup as much as you could, sang veins was from hemo no? 1 button application, and find weakness was basically auto apply in shadow dance or out of stealth come on man, theres no set up there. Vanish immuning cc was fun as fuck but is that not broken? Vanish was never supposed to immune cc, that was simply a game bug that has been in the game since vanilla, its part of the same vanish bug that would make vanish not work sometimes. Both of them are fixed, and its good that way. You have cloak to immune cc, if you want cloak to last 1 second so it feels skillful then by all means advocate that. Part of the point of the prune was so one class didnt have EVERY TOOL IN THE GAME to stop someone playing their character. Between sap, stuns, blind, gouge, dismantle, slows and silences, rogues alone could stop someone doing anything to your team. That wasnt skillful from the rogue, thats tab targetting and pressing your tools. The skillful bit came from the other team STOPPING the rogue from stopping them, through all the bullshit like cloak and vanish immuning cc (doesnt say that on the tooltip :/ ) Also man if you think DR management was tough, how is it not tough now that there are only 3 categories and each few seconds of cc matters more? Shall i sap for 4 seconds or is it worth it to let my mage cast it instead? If that sounds like good decision making, great, if it sounds retarded, thats how "shall i gouge or not" sounds as well.

Also ive seen khuna 4 like 80 times cause it was the only 120 fps video and he managed to 1v1 a feral in cata when ferals assraped rogues into the ground and it made me get excited in my pants. Ive seen more rogue videos than any other class, I know how they played. I understand you think triple cheap shot is braindead, it kinda is, but it seems like youve exclusively played rogue for 12 years, you dont see how bullshit it is when a single class (rogue and mage) can cc your entire team on their own, and they all claim its skillful when they are just using the tools they were given!

[shoegazing]

The only thing there im sad to see go is shiv, cause having active application is always more interesting than passive auto attacks. The rest of it, especially the damage bit, really... snd you kept that up along with recup as much as you could, sang veins was from hemo no? 1 button application, and find weakness was basically auto apply in shadow dance or out of stealth come on man, theres no set up there. Vanish immuning cc was fun as fuck but is that not broken? Vanish was never supposed to immune cc, that was simply a game bug that has been in the game since vanilla, its part of the same vanish bug that would make vanish not work sometimes. Both of them are fixed, and its good that way. You have cloak to immune cc, if you want cloak to last 1 second so it feels skillful then by all means advocate that. Part of the point of the prune was so one class didnt have EVERY TOOL IN THE GAME to stop someone playing their character. Between sap, stuns, blind, gouge, dismantle, slows and silences, rogues alone could stop someone doing anything to your team. That wasnt skillful from the rogue, thats tab targetting and pressing your tools. The skillful bit came from the other team STOPPING the rogue from stopping them, through all the bullshit like cloak and vanish immuning cc (doesnt say that on the tooltip :/ ) Also man if you think DR management was tough, how is it not tough now that there are only 3 categories and each few seconds of cc matters more? Shall i sap for 4 seconds or is it worth it to let my mage cast it instead? If that sounds like good decision making, great, if it sounds retarded, thats how "shall i gouge or not" sounds as well.

Also ive seen khuna 4 like 80 times cause it was the only 120 fps video and he managed to 1v1 a feral in cata when ferals assraped rogues into the ground and it made me get excited in my pants. Ive seen more rogue videos than any other class, I know how they played. I understand you think triple cheap shot is braindead, it kinda is, but it seems like youve exclusively played rogue for 12 years, you dont see how bullshit it is when a single class (rogue and mage) can cc your entire team on their own, and they all claim its skillful when they are just using the tools they were given!

you don't have to like it but that is the identity of the class and of the rogue/mage comp. a control and burst playstyle. it's iconic to WoW PvP.

there are other comp archetypes to play that are perfectly frustrating to vs, so why should a rogue play more like those other classes instead of playing like a rogue? let the turbos play like turbo, let the TSGs play like TSG, let the LSDs play like LSD, let RMP play like RMP.

guess what losing to turbo isn't fun but i don't go around asking for turbos to be given a completely different set of tools that is less interesting to them

[Resentless]

you don't have to like it but that is the identity of the class and of the rogue/mage comp. a control and burst playstyle. it's iconic to WoW PvP.

there are other comp archetypes to play that are perfectly frustrating to vs, so why should a rogue play more like those other classes instead of playing like a rogue? let the turbos play like turbo, let the TSGs play like TSG, let the LSDs play like LSD, let RMP play like RMP.

guess what losing to turbo isn't fun but i don't go around asking for turbos to be given a completely different set of tools that is less interesting to them

I get that, I played both rogue and mage for the longest time, but at least in my eyes the identity is still there. Rogue and mage are STILL the control kings. Only class that comes close is druid and thats only for resto+boomkin cause cyclone is absurd. I love control and burst too, but outside of classes being overpowered through too much damage/survivability (anytime LSD or TSG have been good) rogue and mage will always be at the top. You might say thats ok because they have to be at least 80 IQ to use their abilities to control people, but to me its wrong. There was an arms race between these two classes since tbc, both gaining more tools to control and more tools to burst, to the point where they were the best at both by a large margin. Maybe thats ok because "they have always been that way" but to me it isnt. I still feel like a sub rogue and i still feel like a frost mage. If you gave them back the tools they used to have, youd need to give them back to the other classes too, eventually youd just be back at MoP level pvp where people are sitting in CC for 60 seconds straight and you can burst through anything that isnt a >90% damage reduction.

Keep fighting your corner. Its good that you bring criticism to a system that blizzard is changing, but dont argue in a way that makes it sound like anyone who doesnt agree with you "just doesnt understand the class cause theyre a 1600 mouthbreather". Thats not how you get people to actually consider what you say. I think blizzard has the games best interests at heart, sometimes they dont get it and when enough of the community complains, like for this recent ilvl bullshit, they realise they fucked up and fix it. Clearly some people felt too gimped going into legion, hence they gave back shroud (and then disabled it in pvp... but hey). Maybe they'll bring back other abilities for future expansions, but its never gonna be like it was. Hell maybe they'll make a tier of talents where you can choose to alter cheap shot to become garrote or something, giving you the "options" back.

[RelaZ]

Maybe thats ok because "they have always been that way" but to me it isnt. I still feel like a sub rogue and i still feel like a frost mage.

Almost every single spec in the game feels like a shell of its former self. Frost feels like a wing clipped bastardized version of itself and the same goes for almost every single spec in the game. If you don't feel it enough to warrant massive change the problem is with you, practically everyone in the competitive PvP scene is begging Blizzard for an overhaul (#UnPrune), only they don't do it loudly because they know they'll just get ignored again so they cba spamming the forums (like shoegazing is getting shut down here) etc.

If you gave them back the tools they used to have, youd need to give them back to the other classes too, eventually youd just be back at MoP level pvp

Magically somehow MoP had way way way better competitive PvP than Legion, magically. Maybe one could draw some conclusions based on that.

[Bunchy]

Sub was the highest skill cap spec in the game before Blizzard's D3 devs got their hands on it and trashed it for retards like you to play

I have played a Sub rogue as my main for 12 years so YOU fuck off. You go play a death knight or a demon hunter if you want to smash your face on your keyboard and do big damage you useless 1600 mouthbreather.

I bet you never even played Sub before Legion deleted half of the buttons and made it so retard friendly, noob.

Sub was gutted a long time ago. Blizz has actively simplified the game since skill trees were deleted. When you had to stack resistance or even hit expertise or hit cap. The game has become more streamlined to combat mobas..

[Crispin]

Breaking news, wow gameplay changes with expansions, more news at 11.

[Deleted]

Sub was gutted a long time ago. Blizz has actively simplified the game since skill trees were deleted. When you had to stack resistance or even hit expertise or hit cap. The game has become more streamlined to combat mobas..

This point sums it up.

Blizzard runs this game, blizzard is a company, companies have to make as much money as possible to be seen to be doing well.

I just hope they realise that trying to turn WoW into something its not (moba as said) will only ruin this game not make it more successful.

They need to stick to there guns (of vanilla, tbc, wotlk to some extent) and realise that they still have the best and most popular MMO in the world and need to keep it an MMO, despite the fall in popularity of MMO's there will always be a market for them. You can't turn a game into something its not.

[Resentless]

Almost every single spec in the game feels like a shell of its former self. Frost feels like a wing clipped bastardized version of itself and the same goes for almost every single spec in the game. If you don't feel it enough to warrant massive change the problem is with you, practically everyone in the competitive PvP scene is begging Blizzard for an overhaul (#UnPrune), only they don't do it loudly because they know they'll just get ignored again so they cba spamming the forums (like shoegazing is getting shut down here) etc.


Magically somehow MoP had way way way better competitive PvP than Legion, magically. Maybe one could draw some conclusions based on that.

Really? S12 and S13 were good PvP seasons? You cant say MoP had better competitive pvp cause of the last 2 seasons when we have only had 2 of legion so far. S12 and S13 were the WORST pvp seasons in the game EASILY. Only ones that come close in terms of terribleness is S5. People seem to forget about those first 2 seasons, they were the biggest absolute shitfests that NO ONE liked. TFB warriors, BM hunters stampede -> Bestial Wrath into scatter trap intimidation silencing shot and then READINESS to do it all over again. Frost bomb frost mages, resto druids with ice block, godcomp just being immortal (hence going from shatterplay to GOD comp). If anything, them EVENTUALLY managing to fix it for the final patch of the expansion, that lasted so goddamn long they had to have 2 seasons in which the very very last one was considered good (finally) only proves my point, you arent giving them time to make this work.

Once again, you, just like OP are using your SUBJECTIVE OPINION (i dont think frost is "wing clipped") and claiming EVERYONE feels the same way, when they dont. "Practically everyone" citation needed. If everyone really cared that much, they would do it loudly and repeatedly. You see this recent ilvl scaling change for mobs in 7.2? That blew up so fast blizzard had to hotfix it overnight. If pruning had been an issue for THIS LONG they would have given back more abilities like shroud of concealment for sure.

[RelaZ]

Really? S12 and S13 were good PvP seasons? You cant say MoP had better competitive pvp cause of the last 2 seasons when we have only had 2 of legion so far. S12 and S13 were the WORST pvp seasons in the game EASILY. Only ones that come close in terms of terribleness is S5. People seem to forget about those first 2 seasons, they were the biggest absolute shitfests that NO ONE liked. TFB warriors, BM hunters stampede -> Bestial Wrath into scatter trap intimidation silencing shot and then READINESS to do it all over again. Frost bomb frost mages, resto druids with ice block, godcomp just being immortal (hence going from shatterplay to GOD comp). If anything, them EVENTUALLY managing to fix it for the final patch of the expansion, that lasted so goddamn long they had to have 2 seasons in which the very very last one was considered good (finally) only proves my point, you arent giving them time to make this work.

No. S12 and S13 were unbalanced, but they were still fun to play because the classes themselves were fun to play. Thus MoP was far far better than Legion will ever be (unless this promised 7.2.5 class overhaul is more than I'm expecting it to be). It's about core-gameplay, and you can say it's a "subjective opinion" all you want, but the truth is almost everyone in the competitive PvP scene agrees with me (no, I dont need a citation for this lol, if you followed to PvP scene you'd know, just take a look at the Legion beta forums).

If Blizzard would've been as active with hotfixing etc as they are now back in MoP/WotLK/Cata they would've been even better. It's not fair to say "MoP was shit because hotfixes took long time" when they managed to get 2/4 seasons just fine (and the others still playable and fun, just unbalanced) whereas Legion is somewhat balanced but complete utter garbage play-wise. MoP/Cata/WotLK class design with Legion hotfix-timings, that shit would've been rad, but jk not going to happen #Blizzard.

Again, the only reason BM was ever OP was because of the Stampede bug, MM took over in already in S13. It's not like I want a complete re-do of MoP with all its mistakes, I want the good stuff from Legion (hotfix times) with the good stuff from MoP and the other good PvP expansions (class design), and no TBC was not a good PvP expansion.

Readiness (which you clearly dislike) was an incredible tool that let good hunters stand out compared to bad hunters, bad hunters would use it incorrectly and thus lose more than good hunters. And as S14/S15 hunters showed, it's perfectly possible to balance Hunters with Readiness. But WoD/Legion removed all of that skillful gameplay, and yet here you are saying "I dont feel wing clipped", guess which of the hunters in the scenario you are? The bad one, that's right. Because the good one(s) will clearly notice and complain (and they did).

Once again, you, just like OP are using your SUBJECTIVE OPINION (i dont think frost is "wing clipped") and claiming EVERYONE feels the same way, when they dont. "Practically everyone" citation needed. If everyone really cared that much, they would do it loudly and repeatedly.

When you have only half of the abilities and mechanics you used to you are, factually, wing-clipped compared to before. It's not an opinion, it's the truth. Just because you don't feel wing-clipped, doesn't mean you aren't. Just because you are too bad of a player to notice half your fucking spellbook (non-damaging spells) missing doesn't mean it isn't.

And people did complain, loudly. Did you even follow the Legion alpha/beta forums? It was just a big fucking complaint on how bad PvP class design is. But after getting completely snuffed out and knowing nothing major will happen until the next expansion (because people are not morons) they don't bother complaining about the major overarching stuff, they'll instead focus on the things they can get blizzard to change (balance). People still do complain about class design, but not as much as they did before because they know nothing will happen mid-expansion, because they're not stupid. It's always been this way, the fact that you're trying to use the lack of complaints about things that people know wont change mid season as a reason that said thing is all good is laughable and shows your cluelessness.

You see this recent ilvl scaling change for mobs in 7.2? That blew up so fast blizzard had to hotfix it overnight. If pruning had been an issue for THIS LONG they would have given back more abilities like shroud of concealment for sure.

Pruning is an issue in arena (PvP), it's just that Blizzard doesn't care about arena (and again, anyone with half a brain who's following the PvP scene knows this). Blizzard does the absolute bare minimum to keep arena players playing, they'll add some token stuff like tabards (only two seasons late lol) but they won't do massive changes to things such as class design that would be needed to get good gameplay, they just don't think it's worth the investment. I think they're wrong, and so does the rest of the PvP community which is currently just withering away because people know Blizzard doesn't care and won't make any major changes, so they're quitting in droves. I don't think I've ever had a smaller friends list than now.

[Resentless]

No. S12 and S13 were unbalanced, but they were still fun to play because the classes themselves were fun to play. Thus MoP was far far better than Legion will ever be (unless this promised 7.2.5 class overhaul is more than I'm expecting it to be). It's about core-gameplay, and you can say it's a "subjective opinion" all you want, but the truth is almost everyone in the competitive PvP scene agrees with me (no, I dont need a citation for this lol, if you followed to PvP scene you'd know, just take a look at the Legion beta forums).

If Blizzard would've been as active with hotfixing etc as they are now back in MoP/WotLK/Cata they would've been even better. It's not fair to say "MoP was shit because hotfixes took long time" when they managed to get 2/4 seasons just fine (and the others still playable and fun, just unbalanced) whereas Legion is somewhat balanced but complete utter garbage play-wise. MoP/Cata/WotLK class design with Legion hotfix-timings, that shit would've been rad, but jk not going to happen #Blizzard.

Again, the only reason BM was ever OP was because of the Stampede bug, MM took over in already in S13. It's not like I want a complete re-do of MoP with all its mistakes, I want the good stuff from Legion (hotfix times) with the good stuff from MoP and the other good PvP expansions (class design), and no TBC was not a good PvP expansion.

Readiness (which you clearly dislike) was an incredible tool that let good hunters stand out compared to bad hunters, bad hunters would use it incorrectly and thus lose more than good hunters. And as S14/S15 hunters showed, it's perfectly possible to balance Hunters with Readiness. But WoD/Legion removed all of that skillful gameplay, and yet here you are saying "I dont feel wing clipped", guess which of the hunters in the scenario you are? The bad one, that's right. Because the good one(s) will clearly notice and complain (and they did).



When you have only half of the abilities and mechanics you used to you are, factually, wing-clipped compared to before. It's not an opinion, it's the truth. Just because you don't feel wing-clipped, doesn't mean you aren't. Just because you are too bad of a player to notice half your fucking spellbook (non-damaging spells) missing doesn't mean it isn't.

And people did complain, loudly. Did you even follow the Legion alpha/beta forums? It was just a big fucking complaint on how bad PvP class design is. But after getting completely snuffed out and knowing nothing major will happen until the next expansion (because people are not morons) they don't bother complaining about the major overarching stuff, they'll instead focus on the things they can get blizzard to change (balance). People still do complain about class design, but not as much as they did before because they know nothing will happen mid-expansion, because they're not stupid. It's always been this way, the fact that you're trying to use the lack of complaints about things that people know wont change mid season as a reason that said thing is all good is laughable and shows your cluelessness.



Pruning is an issue in arena (PvP), it's just that Blizzard doesn't care about arena (and again, anyone with half a brain who's following the PvP scene knows this). Blizzard does the absolute bare minimum to keep arena players playing, they'll add some token stuff like tabards (only two seasons late lol) but they won't do massive changes to things such as class design that would be needed to get good gameplay, they just don't think it's worth the investment. I think they're wrong, and so does the rest of the PvP community which is currently just withering away because people know Blizzard doesn't care and won't make any major changes, so they're quitting in droves. I don't think I've ever had a smaller friends list than now.

Lmao, still spouting subjective shit. I hate people like you with "everyone knows" "everyone thinks". Since when did losing abilities make someone "wing clipped". That would make me worse than before... havent noticed that. I still wreck shit like always. Holy GOD how can you say s12 and s13 were fun? 50% of top cata arena pvpers quit in s12/s13 because they were not just unbalanced but they were NOT FUN. Getting 1 shot by TFB warrior was fun? OK SIR. Subjective shit again, yet this time im pretty sure no one other than you MoP babies thought s12 and s13 were good seasons. And no, marksman had not taken over in s13, bm was still retarded and every thug cleave and phd was with BM... obviously.

I didnt like readiness at all, and you think it seperated the good hunters from the bad when they would literally just use it to re-cc the healer for another 15 seconds after ccing them for 30, SOLO. Meanwhile youre dead to double stampede and bestial wrath. Epic fun and balance. I always said it should be like preparation, reset defensives and mobility spells, NOT damage cooldowns and cc. What other class was allowed to RESET THEIR 5 MIN DAMAGE COOLDOWNS? XD im sorry, whenver anyone says legion pvp is the worst im 100% certain they were sub-1500 in s12-s13. Easily the most cancerous seasons of pvp in this game without a doubt, and the only people who will disagree with that are the legion crybabies because they dont get to feel like a pro when they rotate their cc on the healer and think it makes them good at the game.

You have a smaller friends list, mine is as big as it has ever been since wotlk. You know what that is? Subjective facts. They dont mean anything, so dont say them as if that somehow makes your argument any more sound. Also... wtf... blizzard changed the entire arena system in patch 5.4 and you think they couldnt do something like that in the middle of legion? Im "clueless" despite that happening? OK man sure. If people still gave a shit about the prune they WOULD still be complaining rather than alpha+beta whining like they have done since cata beta when talent trees were cut in half. There was a shitstorm about that one as well, but hey, people moved on. Same as this. Theres not some collective hive mind sitting about thinking "Now is not the time". Get real.

Have noticed, its always the people who thought s12 and s13 were fine that think legion pvp is bad. Seems to be a pattern, people want retard level op spells and cc and got sad when legion took them away and forced you to actually work with your teammates to set something up. Guess what, perhaps if you consider s1/s2 of legion so bad, just like I considered s12 and s13 dreadful, we will get some good seasons like s14 an s15 later on. They added abilities back before, if thats what youre so desperate for. If its just class changes... guess what the next patch is all about?

Also you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, readiness was removed in 5.4 (start of s14). They didnt balance hunters with, they deleted it and gave their defensive 2 charges, exactly what should have been done at the start. So keep talking out your ass when you dont even remember the ACTUAL facts, not your subjective opinionated drivel.

edit: the fact you think someone is a bad player because they arent crying like a baby when spells are removed makes me 100% sure you didnt play during transition to cata after wotlk when the ability prune of non-damaging abilities was bigger than the transition from wod-legion by a mile. I'm just a logical human being, not an emotional retard, and I can see when ive lost abilities that mattered and abilities that dont. I can see the changes to my own class in perspective with the changes to other classes and the game as a whole and understand why its happening and be ok with it. Buuut I guess youd rather "DONT TAKE MY THINGS AWAY WTF I LOVED PREMED IT WAS VERY SKILL INTENSIVE!!!11!" I have more abilities that I ACTUALLY USE than I did in wod, thanks to pvp talents and an actually balanced talent tree where I swap out abilities based on what im doing/who im against. If you dont like that style, maybe think about a different game?

[RelaZ]

Lmao, still spouting subjective shit. I hate people like you with "everyone knows" "everyone thinks". Since when did losing abilities make someone "wing clipped". That would make me worse than before... havent noticed that. I still wreck shit like always. Holy GOD how can you say s12 and s13 were fun? 50% of top cata arena pvpers quit in s12/s13 because they were not just unbalanced but they were NOT FUN. Getting 1 shot by TFB warrior was fun? OK SIR. Subjective shit again, yet this time im pretty sure no one other than you MoP babies thought s12 and s13 were good seasons. And no, marksman had not taken over in s13, bm was still retarded and every thug cleave and phd was with BM... obviously.

MoP S12/S13 weren't the best seasons ever, I've never claimed they were. But they were far more fun to play than Legion S1/S2/S3. If you didn't notice most of the (still remaining) PvP community didn't even buy the fucking Legion expansion, so fuck off with your "so many cata glads quit in mop".

"Since when did losing abilities make you wing clipped" oh jesus, well since forever? You know, that's what the word means - to lose something, to not be whole. Again, you're so bad (or it could be because you're playing DH lol) you don't understand how losing things such as Premeditation, Preparation, Readiness, Cyclone, Hibernate etc etc makes classes wing clipped. Just because you don't feel wing clipped doesn't mean good players arn't. And I cba explaining this again, seriously.

And considering I was at gladiator level in S13 I ought to know that yes, MM was a thing in the end of S13, but sure BM was still a bigger thing. Either way, my point stands - with todays faster tuning and hotfixing MoP would've been far better than Legion could ever be (and Legion is still worse without it).

If you were to put both expansions in Blizzards hands today, letting them only do hotfixing, minor changes and tuning - guess which one would turn out best and most people would play, from a competitive PvPers perspective? Bingo, MoP. And before you shout "subjective opinion", I know enough about the PvP community to make an advanced and most likely correct guess, you clearly don't.

You can't compare the two in a vacuum. The problem with MoP was slow hotfixing and tuning, the issue with Legion is the core gameplay is fucking awful. High level competitive PvPers don't find it fun, which is a massive issue for PvP participation.

I didnt like readiness at all, and you think it seperated the good hunters from the bad when they would literally just use it to re-cc the healer for another 15 seconds after ccing them for 30, SOLO. Meanwhile youre dead to double stampede and bestial wrath. Epic fun and balance. I always said it should be like preparation, reset defensives and mobility spells, NOT damage cooldowns and cc. What other class was allowed to RESET THEIR 5 MIN DAMAGE COOLDOWNS? XD im sorry, whenver anyone says legion pvp is the worst im 100% certain they were sub-1500 in s12-s13. Easily the most cancerous seasons of pvp in this game without a doubt, and the only people who will disagree with that are the legion crybabies because they dont get to feel like a pro when they rotate their cc on the healer and think it makes them good at the game.

Yeah, you're one of those "omg fucking pillar humper, just fight me like a man" kind of player who doesn't understand the value of CCing someone over spamming damage. I'll have you know I was playing at gladiator range in both late S12 and early S13, so again stop it with the fucking personal attacks when you've got nothing.

Also, since you frequently post bullshit on AJ aswell I found your character, nice 2K achievement in 3S you've got there, you clearly understand why some things are skillful and others arn't, clearly. On top of that you play fucking DH, the most skill-less class in game (arguably ever). You're clearly, clearly one to talk about skill and game understanding. Now go hide in a corner somewhere.

And yes, some people managed their Readiness better than others, otherwise why weren't every single BM player R1? Sure there were many, but the reason some BMs were R1 and others weren't was partly because the R1s handled Readiness better than others. Basically they were skilled Hunters versus unskilled Hunters, such distinctions barely exists nowadays, because the abilities allowing player Z of class X to stand out compared to player Y also of class X almost don't exist any more. And your 2K experience doesn't let you see that, because you're clearly not good enough to notice the skill cap differences if you don't feel "wing clipped" in Legion. Sure, I agree Readiness shouldn't have reset DPS cooldowns, but straight up removing it as a whole, no - that's the Legion way and that's not what the game needs.

Sure, BM was OP - but as I have been trying to tell you I'm not saying S12/S13 were great (better than Legion, but not great). But if you were to apply the faster hotfixes and tuning of today to MoP by the time of S13 the horrific parts of BM would've been fixed (considering S12 lasted almost as long as s19+s20 combined, and just think about how many overtuned things they've fixed in that time) and S13 would've had the chance to be a great season (and still many people think S13 along with S7 and S10 were one of the best seasons in the game, oh and obviously many like S8 and S14/15).

To prove my point further, imagine Legion with MoP speed hotfixing/tuning lol. It would've been the biggest shitfest ever.

You have a smaller friends list, mine is as big as it has ever been since wotlk. You know what that is? Subjective facts. They dont mean anything, so dont say them as if that somehow makes your argument any more sound. Also... wtf... blizzard changed the entire arena system in patch 5.4 and you think they couldnt do something like that in the middle of legion? Im "clueless" despite that happening? OK man sure. If people still gave a shit about the prune they WOULD still be complaining rather than alpha+beta whining like they have done since cata beta when talent trees were cut in half. There was a shitstorm about that one as well, but hey, people moved on. Same as this. Theres not some collective hive mind sitting about thinking "Now is not the time". Get real.

No. It's not subjective opinions, its facts, it's fact that the competitive PvP scene is smaller than ever and finding partners (who are not dogshit and not 2K top exp) is incredibly hard, that is fact. The top of the game are leaving in droves, because it's not fun to play when outplaying your opponents doesn't matter / is impossible to do and outcomping is key because all the skill and complexity was taken out of the game.

And sure, they might do massive changes to the systems, but if you even tried to understand my point even a little bit you'd understand that it has nothing to do with the PvP systems, and everything to do with class design. If you can't see the difference between:

a) Changing 2/3rds if not more of the classes/specs massively
and
b) Changing the PvP arena system from a team-based solution to a team-less solution

and how the first is not going to happen (mid-expansion) that's your problem not mine. Most other people have realized this, and did so several expansions ago, that's why complaints about class design are mainly focused around expansion launches - because that's the only time when real change can occur.

And yes, people still give a shit about the prune, what the fuck are you on about? Have you not noticed it's one of the top three complaints, it's all basically balance, rng-gearing or pruning complaints? But not many people care to make well thought out posts anymore complaining about the prune because they know Blizzard wont do enough about it mid-expansion. How can this be such a hard concept for you to grasp?

Oh and about your "talent tree prune" analogy, it's bullshit. Many, many, people still hate that change, but do they complain extremely loudly about it? No. Why? Because they know it's very unlikely anything's going happen. It's the exact same thing in that regard. People write short posts saying "well the old talent trees were better for X/Y/Z reason", but they won't go further into detail or try to rally people because they know nothing will change regardless. But even so there is still a massive difference to the two issues. That difference is that the game can still provide deep, complex and fun gameplay regardless of which talent tree system is used (it's the content of those trees that really matter) whereas one cannot have deep, complex and fun gameplay if you prune everything deep and complex about the gameplay.

Again, comparing changes of the surrounding systems to changing the core gameplay is really bad, stop doing it.

Have noticed, its always the people who thought s12 and s13 were fine that think legion pvp is bad. Seems to be a pattern, people want retard level op spells and cc and got sad when legion took them away and forced you to actually work with your teammates to set something up. Guess what, perhaps if you consider s1/s2 of legion so bad, just like I considered s12 and s13 dreadful, we will get some good seasons like s14 an s15 later on. They added abilities back before, if thats what youre so desperate for. If its just class changes... guess what the next patch is all about?

You just don't get it do you? Seriously. No, we don't think S12/S13 were great nor fine, what we do think is that MoP had a core class design, that with some minor changes could be amazing, compared to that of Legion which would require massive, massive changes to become good.

And yes, it's the same people complaining, if you were smart you'd know why. I'll spell it out for you:
1) MMO-C is not a hangout for high rated people.
2) Almost all the high rated people share this opinion (that Legion class design is bleh).
3) Very few people care to make long detailed posts about issues and much less so issues that are highly unlikely to get resolved.

This means that the few high rated people on MMO-C will most likely share the opinion and some of those few people will make detailed posts about the issue, the rest have just given up (as I've explained so many times now) => It'll be the same faces writing high-rating opinion PvP posts on a PvE focused website. The fact that there are still even this amount of people fired up enough to complain this much about this kind of issue mid-expansion on MMO-C should show you something.

If you went to AJ and wrote this very same thread it would be applauded, but everyone knows Blizzard isn't going to do shit about it. "Yeah the game was so much better, but jk Blizzard won't do shit" is, I imagine, the average reply.

And hey, you just might not get this but try to understand this: using CC correctly is skillful, spamming damage is not. Get over it. Yes, of course anyone worth their name will want all the bullshit passive retard mechanics in the game gone and replaced with the good mechanics we had before, or new well designed mechanics.

And no, they won't make the neccessary changes in this 7.2.5 patch. You just don't get it, or you're acting like you don't get it. The problems are so massive that a small patch mid-expansion is not going to make a difference and that's what the entire PvP community has realized, that's why they've given up on massive overhaul complaints, but you're just using stupid-logic to say "no one is complaining, huh must be cus they love it". It will all be PvE tailored changes that does nothing for PvP, or at the very best very little (probably the opposite actually). Because they don't want to separate PvP and PvE more, and that is a requirement at this point in order to make PvP better. At the absolute most they'll do a few small token moves that don't make much of a difference.

Also you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, readiness was removed in 5.4 (start of s14). They didnt balance hunters with, they deleted it and gave their defensive 2 charges, exactly what should have been done at the start. So keep talking out your ass when you dont even remember the ACTUAL facts, not your subjective opinionated drivel.

Yeah, I remembered MM from S13, and again MM was not OP in S13 so Readiness can absolutely exist in the game without being OP. Sorry about the confusion, I seemed to remember it being removed with S15, aka still existing in S14. But either way, my previous claim still stands. Sure, not every spec/class needs Readiness, but just saying "READINESS IS ALWAYS OP LOL AND SO EASY TO USE" is just mind-boggling and shows how bad of a player you are, these types of abilities requires the player to actually think. Just because it was OP for BM at one point in the game doesn't make it an automatically bad ability or design (although I agree, it probably shouldn't reset DPS cooldown, a small change that given todays hotfix speed they could've easily done). But why am I even trying to explain this to you - you've made it abundantly clear you don't understand what skill is in this game.

edit: the fact you think someone is a bad player because they arent crying like a baby when spells are removed makes me 100% sure you didnt play during transition to cata after wotlk when the ability prune of non-damaging abilities was bigger than the transition from wod-legion by a mile. I'm just a logical human being, not an emotional retard, and I can see when ive lost abilities that mattered and abilities that dont. I can see the changes to my own class in perspective with the changes to other classes and the game as a whole and understand why its happening and be ok with it. Buuut I guess youd rather "DONT TAKE MY THINGS AWAY WTF I LOVED PREMED IT WAS VERY SKILL INTENSIVE!!!11!" I have more abilities that I ACTUALLY USE than I did in wod, thanks to pvp talents and an actually balanced talent tree where I swap out abilities based on what im doing/who im against. If you dont like that style, maybe think about a different game?

That's your justification for the prune? "Okay, the game is changing so lets remove almost all skill from all classes, and letting Rogues keep their skillcap would be unfair, so lets prune them too of course". The problem is, obviously, that the game shouldn't have changed in that way to begin with. I'm obviously not advocating that Rogues should get their tools back and no one else. Almost everyone lost in skill cap over WoD/Legion, in my opinion that has to be fixed.

Yeah, all I see is you dont understand how Premeditation added to the skill-cap, and you dont understand how Preparation-esque abilities add to the skill cap and how both made the game better (not in a vacuum of course, I probably need to spell that out for you).

And yes, I did play during wotlk->cata transition. I've almost certainly played this game longer than you. I do apologize about the Readiness thing though, as mentioned before I remembered incorrectly. Either way I'm done discussing, you've shown clearly you don't understand why MoP (overall) was a better expansion than Legion. It comes down to 2 sentences: Classes were fun to play and you outplaying your opponent was still a big thing in MoP. Legion is a dumbed down, streamlined, boring and skill-less expansion.

[Resentless]

MoP S12/S13 weren't the best seasons ever, I've never claimed they were. But they were far more fun to play than Legion S1/S2/S3. If you didn't notice most of the (still remaining) PvP community didn't even buy the fucking Legion expansion, so fuck off with your "so many cata glads quit in mop".

"Since when did losing abilities make you wing clipped" oh jesus, well since forever? You know, that's what the word means - to lose something, to not be whole. Again, you're so bad (or it could be because you're playing DH lol) you don't understand how losing things such as Premeditation, Preparation, Readiness, Cyclone, Hibernate etc etc makes classes wing clipped. Just because you don't feel wing clipped doesn't mean good players arn't. And I cba explaining this again, seriously.

And considering I was at gladiator level in S13 I ought to know that yes, MM was a thing in the end of S13, but sure BM was still a bigger thing. Either way, my point stands - with todays faster tuning and hotfixing MoP would've been far better than Legion could ever be (and Legion is still worse without it).

If you were to put both expansions in Blizzards hands today, letting them only do hotfixing, minor changes and tuning - guess which one would turn out best and most people would play, from a competitive PvPers perspective? Bingo, MoP. And before you shout "subjective opinion", I know enough about the PvP community to make an advanced and most likely correct guess, you clearly don't.

You can't compare the two in a vacuum. The problem with MoP was slow hotfixing and tuning, the issue with Legion is the core gameplay is fucking awful. High level competitive PvPers don't find it fun, which is a massive issue for PvP participation.

Yeah, you're one of those "omg fucking pillar humper, just fight me like a man" kind of player who doesn't understand the value of CCing someone over spamming damage. I'll have you know I was playing at gladiator range in both late S12 and early S13, so again stop it with the fucking personal attacks when you've got nothing.

Also, since you frequently post bullshit on AJ aswell I found your character, nice 2K achievement in 3S you've got there, you clearly understand why some things are skillful and others arn't, clearly. On top of that you play fucking DH, the most skill-less class in game (arguably ever). You're clearly, clearly one to talk about skill and game understanding. Now go hide in a corner somewhere.

And yes, some people managed their Readiness better than others, otherwise why weren't every single BM player R1? Sure there were many, but the reason some BMs were R1 and others weren't was partly because the R1s handled Readiness better than others. Basically they were skilled Hunters versus unskilled Hunters, such distinctions barely exists nowadays, because the abilities allowing player Z of class X to stand out compared to player Y also of class X almost don't exist any more. And your 2K experience doesn't let you see that, because you're clearly not good enough to notice the skill cap differences if you don't feel "wing clipped" in Legion. Sure, I agree Readiness shouldn't have reset DPS cooldowns, but straight up removing it as a whole, no - that's the Legion way and that's not what the game needs.

Sure, BM was OP - but as I have been trying to tell you I'm not saying S12/S13 were great (better than Legion, but not great). But if you were to apply the faster hotfixes and tuning of today to MoP by the time of S13 the horrific parts of BM would've been fixed (considering S12 lasted almost as long as s19+s20 combined, and just think about how many overtuned things they've fixed in that time) and S13 would've had the chance to be a great season (and still many people think S13 along with S7 and S10 were one of the best seasons in the game, oh and obviously many like S8 and S14/15).

To prove my point further, imagine Legion with MoP speed hotfixing/tuning lol. It would've been the biggest shitfest ever.

No. It's not subjective opinions, its facts, it's fact that the competitive PvP scene is smaller than ever and finding partners (who are not dogshit and not 2K top exp) is incredibly hard, that is fact. The top of the game are leaving in droves, because it's not fun to play when outplaying your opponents doesn't matter / is impossible to do and outcomping is key because all the skill and complexity was taken out of the game.

And sure, they might do massive changes to the systems, but if you even tried to understand my point even a little bit you'd understand that it has nothing to do with the PvP systems, and everything to do with class design. If you can't see the difference between:

a) Changing 2/3rds if not more of the classes/specs massively
and
b) Changing the PvP arena system from a team-based solution to a team-less solution

and how the first is not going to happen (mid-expansion) that's your problem not mine. Most other people have realized this, and did so several expansions ago, that's why complaints about class design are mainly focused around expansion launches - because that's the only time when real change can occur.

And yes, people still give a shit about the prune, what the fuck are you on about? Have you not noticed it's one of the top three complaints, it's all basically balance, rng-gearing or pruning complaints? But not many people care to make well thought out posts anymore complaining about the prune because they know Blizzard wont do enough about it mid-expansion. How can this be such a hard concept for you to grasp?

Oh and about your "talent tree prune" analogy, it's bullshit. Many, many, people still hate that change, but do they complain extremely loudly about it? No. Why? Because they know it's very unlikely anything's going happen. It's the exact same thing in that regard. People write short posts saying "well the old talent trees were better for X/Y/Z reason", but they won't go further into detail or try to rally people because they know nothing will change regardless. But even so there is still a massive difference to the two issues. That difference is that the game can still provide deep, complex and fun gameplay regardless of which talent tree system is used (it's the content of those trees that really matter) whereas one cannot have deep, complex and fun gameplay if you prune everything deep and complex about the gameplay.

Again, comparing changes of the surrounding systems to changing the core gameplay is really bad, stop doing it.



You just don't get it do you? Seriously. No, we don't think S12/S13 were great nor fine, what we do think is that MoP had a core class design, that with some minor changes could be amazing, compared to that of Legion which would require massive, massive changes to become good.

And yes, it's the same people complaining, if you were smart you'd know why. I'll spell it out for you:
1) MMO-C is not a hangout for high rated people.
2) Almost all the high rated people share this opinion (that Legion class design is bleh).
3) Very few people care to make long detailed posts about issues and much less so issues that are highly unlikely to get resolved.

This means that the few high rated people on MMO-C will most likely share the opinion and some of those few people will make detailed posts about the issue, the rest have just given up (as I've explained so many times now) => It'll be the same faces writing high-rating opinion PvP posts on a PvE focused website. The fact that there are still even this amount of people fired up enough to complain this much about this kind of issue mid-expansion on MMO-C should show you something.

If you went to AJ and wrote this very same thread it would be applauded, but everyone knows Blizzard isn't going to do shit about it. "Yeah the game was so much better, but jk Blizzard won't do shit" is, I imagine, the average reply.

And hey, you just might not get this but try to understand this: using CC correctly is skillful, spamming damage is not. Get over it. Yes, of course anyone worth their name will want all the bullshit passive retard mechanics in the game gone and replaced with the good mechanics we had before, or new well designed mechanics.

And no, they won't make the neccessary changes in this 7.2.5 patch. You just don't get it, or you're acting like you don't get it. The problems are so massive that a small patch mid-expansion is not going to make a difference and that's what the entire PvP community has realized, that's why they've given up on massive overhaul complaints, but you're just using stupid-logic to say "no one is complaining, huh must be cus they love it". It will all be PvE tailored changes that does nothing for PvP, or at the very best very little (probably the opposite actually). Because they don't want to separate PvP and PvE more, and that is a requirement at this point in order to make PvP better. At the absolute most they'll do a few small token moves that don't make much of a difference.



Yeah, I remembered MM from S13, and again MM was not OP in S13 so Readiness can absolutely exist in the game without being OP. Sorry about the confusion, I seemed to remember it being removed with S15, aka still existing in S14. But either way, my previous claim still stands. Sure, not every spec/class needs Readiness, but just saying "READINESS IS ALWAYS OP LOL AND SO EASY TO USE" is just mind-boggling and shows how bad of a player you are, these types of abilities requires the player to actually think. Just because it was OP for BM at one point in the game doesn't make it an automatically bad ability or design (although I agree, it probably shouldn't reset DPS cooldown, a small change that given todays hotfix speed they could've easily done). But why am I even trying to explain this to you - you've made it abundantly clear you don't understand what skill is in this game.



That's your justification for the prune? "Okay, the game is changing so lets remove almost all skill from all classes, and letting Rogues keep their skillcap would be unfair, so lets prune them too of course". The problem is, obviously, that the game shouldn't have changed in that way to begin with. I'm obviously not advocating that Rogues should get their tools back and no one else. Almost everyone lost in skill cap over WoD/Legion, in my opinion that has to be fixed.

Yeah, all I see is you dont understand how Premeditation added to the skill-cap, and you dont understand how Preparation-esque abilities add to the skill cap and how both made the game better (not in a vacuum of course, I probably need to spell that out for you).

And yes, I did play during wotlk->cata transition. I've almost certainly played this game longer than you. I do apologize about the Readiness thing though, as mentioned before I remembered incorrectly. Either way I'm done discussing, you've shown clearly you don't understand why MoP (overall) was a better expansion than Legion. It comes down to 2 sentences: Classes were fun to play and you outplaying your opponent was still a big thing in MoP. Legion is a dumbed down, streamlined, boring and skill-less expansion.

You complain that I'm just not understanding your point when you don't even acknowledge what I'm saying. Legion PvP right now is not great. I never once said it was good, i never once said it was more skillful than mop or any other. What i am saying is there is this huge whinefest over blizzard dramatically changing classes, something they did in cata and mop with the talent trees and general pruning of buffs and debuffs and whatnot.

You keep saying classes are wing clipped 100% yet didn't even mention what it's actually defined as. It's not just 'losing' something it's losing something and being worse off for it. A bird with no wings can't fly, but rogues without gouge and dismantle do just fine. The bird will likely die out of its natural habitat that it can't reach anymore, while a rogue in wow is still doing his thing. Yes, i play demon hunter as my main, i also have rogue+mage+hunter+DK+priest ALTs, but you didn't see that when you tried to get super personal. I've played this game since 2007, didn't start pvping till late wotlk but was in a progression guild all of wotlk clearing content. I've been a 2-2.2k player since late cata with a heavy interest in the PvP scene. Ive never gotten higher than that mostly cause grinding to glad takes time more than anything, but I've been playing at 2600 MMR in 2s for like 4 seasons now, just never have good teammates for 3s. That isn't a legion specific problem. Notice how dh only came out this expansion? There's the 2k achiev, I've been 2k+ rated for 4 expansions. For your info, i was top 4k on eu west in LoL, top 100 in Europe in HotS for the first 2 ranked seasons, grandmaster and rank 1, global elite in csgo. I know my shit, mate. And since when did being in the top 10% of players make someone bad? You didn't know when shit got removed yet i did, does that not show I'm invested in something and go out of my way to understand context regardless of my own personal achievements? You think i didn't watch streams daily watching how people higher rated than me were playing and noticed what they did i didn't do? Sorry that I put my irl friends first to try and climb rating with, who didn't put in nearly as much effort as me, but that's how it went.

Also, you say i chat shit on AJ when everything bar one post on there is something helpful for my class regarding class changes? I know forum posts get people a bit heated, but why insult useful work?

This is where we differ. You think that mop class design and 'feel' is superior to legions. I don't think it is, and i don't think either of them are as good as cata s11 or wotlk s8 (played plenty of AT), but your reasons for thinking mop is better just make me wonder if its rose tinted glasses from your 'glad range' days that make you think s12 and s13 weren't easily the worst seasons of competitive PvP in this game. You say classes don't 'feel' fun to play compared to how they used to. I don't know how you can quantify something like that, my dh 'feels' amazing to play.

What PvP community are you talking about? Your squad of friends or the actual community streaming on twitch and posting on AJ? AJ died in wod and twitch is popular as it ever was for wow (which isn't much). It's funny you say that your experience of glad range in 2 seasons of shit PvP gives you authority over me on this topic when in those seasons there was about 200 rating separating us and God knows what you are nowadays.

Don't try and defend readiness, i heard all the arguments for that ability 4 years ago. Sure some hunters were better with it than others, but scatter trap, silence and intimidate x2 while QUITE LITERALLY the hunter pets are murdering you is not the definition of skill in this game. Ik sure you've seen kettu 3/4. You think having the ability to do that made the game better when back then everyone agreed it was just completely retard friendly. Anyone with over 80 iq can use his cc x2 on a healer. It was dumb and it should never have existed in the first place. Cata cold snap was also just as bad and that's coming from a mage main. I'm not saying legion is the best we've had, it isn't. But the 'core' gameplay is what they are trying to stabalize this expansion. In mop the core gameplay revolved around cc and everyone having one massive overloaded damage cooldown. You're telling me it isn't still based around that now?

Idk, i don't know why they even changed talent trees after wotlk, but i learned to live with it and understand the decisions of the developers. The crying about this is the same as the crying of every expansion since cata. Just understand why it happened and move on. Don't enjoy it anymore, quit. Same thing was said and done in mop and wod, wow is still here. New people fill the void. It's a video game, have fun. If you're not, go and do something else. You're right, they won't make dramatic fundamental changes during the expansion, so why are you here complaining about it? Over and over again this happens and the people that do it think they are special with their concerns. Sigh. I think this topic triggers me cause i was saying exactly the same you are now about cata during s12 and s13 saying it would never get better because the fundamental of everyone having a broken damage cooldown and infinite cc made mop incurable, despite the fact it wasn't finished yet. Just like legion now.
Also link your own char profile if youre gonna go and stalk me like that.

[RelaZ]

You complain that I'm just not understanding your point when you don't even acknowledge what I'm saying. Legion PvP right now is not great. I never once said it was good, i never once said it was more skillful than mop or any other. What i am saying is there is this huge whinefest over blizzard dramatically changing classes, something they did in cata and mop with the talent trees and general pruning of buffs and debuffs and whatnot.

I acknowledge what you're saying, you think Legion is "fine" and that Rogues are somehow fine, not wing-clipped and that anyone who disagrees with the current direction of the game should just quit instead of trying to do something about it.

You keep saying classes are wing clipped 100% yet didn't even mention what it's actually defined as. It's not just 'losing' something it's losing something and being worse off for it. A bird with no wings can't fly, but rogues without gouge and dismantle do just fine.

Did you miss reading parts of my post? I did define it. I specifically wrote what it is. To be missing something, to not be whole. And Rogues and almost every other class in the game right now is certainly missing something.

So no, they're not fine. They suck. They're boring as fuck to play. Also you missed all the other spells that were pruned (shoegazing can fill you in). Just because they work in the meta doesn't mean its fine.

The bird will likely die out of its natural habitat that it can't reach anymore, while a rogue in wow is still doing his thing. Yes, i play demon hunter as my main, i also have rogue+mage+hunter+DK+priest ALTs, but you didn't see that when you tried to get super personal. I've played this game since 2007, didn't start pvping till late wotlk but was in a progression guild all of wotlk clearing content. I've been a 2-2.2k player since late cata with a heavy interest in the PvP scene. Ive never gotten higher than that mostly cause grinding to glad takes time more than anything, but I've been playing at 2600 MMR in 2s for like 4 seasons now, just never have good teammates for 3s. That isn't a legion specific problem. Notice how dh only came out this expansion? There's the 2k achiev, I've been 2k+ rated for 4 expansions. For your info, i was top 4k on eu west in LoL, top 100 in Europe in HotS for the first 2 ranked seasons, grandmaster and rank 1, global elite in csgo. I know my shit, mate.

No. You don't know your shit. Nice, you played at 2.6K MMR (in 2s lol, as if it matters - if anything you should know how there is absolutely no difference between anyone anymore, be it 2.3K or 2.6K 2s) and at 2.2K in the bracket that matters. I'm guessing your Rogue+Mage+Hunter+DK+Priest ALTs are 2.4K+ 3S experience then yeah? Otherwise why would you mention them? They don't add to your credibility. I can play that game too, but I wont because talking about your alts on whom you (also) have no notable experience is irrelevant and only points to your lack of knowledge and skill. Oh, you've been decent in other games, good again what the fuck does an FPS have to do with WoW Arena? And still, if you are so hardcore as you claim how can you still defend this garbage design that is legion and just say "don't complain, learn to live with it". Right, because you're not a hardcore WoW player. You're a casual WoW PvPer. However, that's sadly the attitude of many people, but how the fuck are we supposed to make the game better if we just keep going along with all the stupid shit the devs do without even trying to make a change?

And since when did being in the top 10% of players make someone bad?

Uhm since the point where I could carry my 10 year old brother into top 10%. It's that easy. And at that rating you don't know, feel or understand the difference (I can assure you, as I've carried many of my friends to top 10% and they don't feel jack shit of differences going from expansion to expansion. Again I'll refer to the previous retarded statement "rogues are fine" and "I dont feel wing-clipped" as evidence enough. Anyone who knows anything about how the game has changed over these last years from a PvP perspective agrees with me: Legion is retarded, revert to WotLK/Cata/MoP and work from there, Legion is too fucked up to use as a starting point for PvP design.

Also, you say i chat shit on AJ when everything bar one post on there is something helpful for my class regarding class changes? I know forum posts get people a bit heated, but why insult useful work?

Giving advice at 2K exp is not useful work, sorry to burst your bubble. It's actually counter-productive as you're feeding newbies false information.

This is where we differ. You think that mop class design and 'feel' is superior to legions. I don't think it is, and i don't think either of them are as good as cata s11 or wotlk s8 (played plenty of AT), but your reasons for thinking mop is better just make me wonder if its rose tinted glasses from your 'glad range' days that make you think s12 and s13 weren't easily the worst seasons of competitive PvP in this game. You say classes don't 'feel' fun to play compared to how they used to. I don't know how you can quantify something like that, my dh 'feels' amazing to play.

Sure, you want Cata or WotLK design, I'm all for it. I just don't think it's as likely to happen as MoP design. And I'm still playing at glad ratings btw and I never got glad in MoP - only played at glad ratings. I got gladiator afterwards, when the game got dumbed down.

What PvP community are you talking about? Your squad of friends or the actual community streaming on twitch and posting on AJ? AJ died in wod and twitch is popular as it ever was for wow (which isn't much). It's funny you say that your experience of glad range in 2 seasons of shit PvP gives you authority over me on this topic when in those seasons there was about 200 rating separating us and God knows what you are nowadays.

Uhm, you know like every fucking person ever who queues arena at 2.4K+ rating in anything but 2S agrees with me (and most of the 2s heroes too). Legion design is dogshit and WotLK/Cata/MoP were all far superior. Have you been living under a rock or something? Oh wait, you don't play high rating 3s. It's all everyone complains about "lol Legion design, kappa".

Don't try and defend readiness, i heard all the arguments for that ability 4 years ago. Sure some hunters were better with it than others, but scatter trap, silence and intimidate x2 while QUITE LITERALLY the hunter pets are murdering you is not the definition of skill in this game. Ik sure you've seen kettu 3/4. You think having the ability to do that made the game better when back then everyone agreed it was just completely retard friendly. Anyone with over 80 iq can use his cc x2 on a healer. It was dumb and it should never have existed in the first place. Cata cold snap was also just as bad and that's coming from a mage main. I'm not saying legion is the best we've had, it isn't. But the 'core' gameplay is what they are trying to stabalize this expansion. In mop the core gameplay revolved around cc and everyone having one massive overloaded damage cooldown. You're telling me it isn't still based around that now?

Cba discussing readiness, you don't understand how preparation-esque abilities can be good for the game so I cba discussing it with you. With some tweaking Readiness could've been geat, but you don't understand that because you don't even see the difference between MoP gameplay and now (how can you even say that MoP and Legion is the same rofl). To be perfectly clear: Now the game design is revolving around spamming damage, spamming damage and spamming some more damage with a few extremely scripted (short, instant and retard-friendly) CC chains where no one can do anything to stick out. So basically, it's more PvE.

Idk, i don't know why they even changed talent trees after wotlk, but i learned to live with it and understand the decisions of the developers. The crying about this is the same as the crying of every expansion since cata. Just understand why it happened and move on.

Probably because every expansion since Cata has been pretty meh, especially compared to WotLK. Problem with WotLK though is half the PvP specs weren't even competitively viable, whereas they were in MoP.

Also link your own char profile if youre gonna go and stalk me like that.

I've posted my armory on here before, put some effort in. And it wasn't very hard to "stalk" you either. I literally went on AJ last week and saw the first post was made by someone with the same avatar as you and a very similar name. Maybe you shouldn't use almost the same username and the same avatar post on every WoW forum if you don't want to be found (or just not link your characters to your forum accounts). It was 4 clicks away lol, don't blame me. Also, you should probably let people who know how to play give people advice. I'm not going to go into detail as to why but just know it's always cringey when 2K players try giving other people gameplay advice. But you do you of course.

Don't enjoy it anymore, quit. Same thing was said and done in mop and wod, wow is still here. New people fill the void. It's a video game, have fun. If you're not, go and do something else. You're right, they won't make dramatic fundamental changes during the expansion, so why are you here complaining about it? Over and over again this happens and the people that do it think they are special with their concerns. Sigh. I think this topic triggers me cause i was saying exactly the same you are now about cata during s12 and s13 saying it would never get better because the fundamental of everyone having a broken damage cooldown and infinite cc made mop incurable, despite the fact it wasn't finished yet. Just like legion now.

You think MoP was just infinite CC, I think MoP was incredibly fun and allowed good players to stand out, unlike WoD/Legion - despite having perhaps too much CC. I can actually agree that some things in MoP was slightly overtuned (CC), but the issue with Legion compared to MoP is during MoP the classes still functioned basically the same way as in Cata, they just had a few things added. Fast forward to Legion the classes are completely changed and nothing is even slightly resembling WotLK/Cata/MoP design and is instead replaced by retarded passives etc. Therefore the simple conclusion can be made: The chances of Blizzard fixing the game with the current (Legion) design, or in Legion at all are next to zero. Roll-backing things (PvP-wise) to the way they were in MoP and working from there has a much much higher chance of actually working. Again, the chances of that happening (even at next expansion) are also very slim, but advocating the right things (i.e rolling back to an expansion which actually has a chance - although you don't understand that or see it for some reason with your limited 2.2K experience).

Actually thinking back, it's pretty funny. You know when MoP was about to end people were screaming for CC to be reduced, and sure I agreed - some CC should at that point be reduced. But guess what Blizzard did another Blizzard. Instead of just tweaking and reducing some of the instant CC a little bit they fucked up the entire game by merging DRs and pruning everyone and their mother of everything, so people complained about WoD for its entire duration and guess what - they did it again (and this time they fucked up things ontop of that which WoD had already fucked).

Also again, dogshit approach "don't like it - quit", yeah so my opinion is not as important as yours? I'm not allowed to voice my opinion and why the direction Blizzard is taking the game (PvP-wise) is horrible? Instead I should just quit so you can have your mongoloid game design which will continue to drop players until Blizzard removes arenas entirely because no one plays them? Yeah, no thanks.

PST: I'm done now, can't be arsed getting mad over another "stop complaining just live with it" Blizzard fan boy.

[Resentless]

I acknowledge what you're saying, you think Legion is "fine" and that Rogues are somehow fine, not wing-clipped and that anyone who disagrees with the current direction of the game should just quit instead of trying to do something about it.


Did you miss reading parts of my post? I did define it. I specifically wrote what it is. To be missing something, to not be whole. And Rogues and almost every other class in the game right now is certainly missing something.

So no, they're not fine. They suck. They're boring as fuck to play. Also you missed all the other spells that were pruned (shoegazing can fill you in). Just because they work in the meta doesn't mean its fine.

No. You don't know your shit. Nice, you played at 2.6K MMR (in 2s lol, as if it matters - if anything you should know how there is absolutely no difference between anyone anymore, be it 2.3K or 2.6K 2s) and at 2.2K in the bracket that matters. I'm guessing your Rogue+Mage+Hunter+DK+Priest ALTs are 2.4K+ 3S experience then yeah? Otherwise why would you mention them? They don't add to your credibility. I can play that game too, but I wont because talking about your alts on whom you (also) have no notable experience is irrelevant and only points to your lack of knowledge and skill. Oh, you've been decent in other games, good again what the fuck does an FPS have to do with WoW Arena? And still, if you are so hardcore as you claim how can you still defend this garbage design that is legion and just say "don't complain, learn to live with it". Right, because you're not a hardcore WoW player. You're a casual WoW PvPer. However, that's sadly the attitude of many people, but how the fuck are we supposed to make the game better if we just keep going along with all the stupid shit the devs do without even trying to make a change?

Uhm since the point where I could carry my 10 year old brother into top 10%. It's that easy. And at that rating you don't know, feel or understand the difference (I can assure you, as I've carried many of my friends to top 10% and they don't feel jack shit of differences going from expansion to expansion. Again I'll refer to the previous retarded statement "rogues are fine" and "I dont feel wing-clipped" as evidence enough. Anyone who knows anything about how the game has changed over these last years from a PvP perspective agrees with me: Legion is retarded, revert to WotLK/Cata/MoP and work from there, Legion is too fucked up to use as a starting point for PvP design.


Giving advice at 2K exp is not useful work, sorry to burst your bubble. It's actually counter-productive as you're feeding newbies false information.


Sure, you want Cata or WotLK design, I'm all for it. I just don't think it's as likely to happen as MoP design. And I'm still playing at glad ratings btw and I never got glad in MoP - only played at glad ratings. I got gladiator afterwards, when the game got dumbed down.


Uhm, you know like every fucking person ever who queues arena at 2.4K+ rating in anything but 2S agrees with me (and most of the 2s heroes too). Legion design is dogshit and WotLK/Cata/MoP were all far superior. Have you been living under a rock or something? Oh wait, you don't play high rating 3s. It's all everyone complains about "lol Legion design, kappa".


Cba discussing readiness, you don't understand how preparation-esque abilities can be good for the game so I cba discussing it with you. With some tweaking Readiness could've been geat, but you don't understand that because you don't even see the difference between MoP gameplay and now (how can you even say that MoP and Legion is the same rofl). To be perfectly clear: Now the game design is revolving around spamming damage, spamming damage and spamming some more damage with a few extremely scripted (short, instant and retard-friendly) CC chains where no one can do anything to stick out. So basically, it's more PvE.


Probably because every expansion since Cata has been pretty meh, especially compared to WotLK. Problem with WotLK though is half the PvP specs weren't even competitively viable, whereas they were in MoP.


I've posted my armory on here before, put some effort in. And it wasn't very hard to "stalk" you either. I literally went on AJ last week and saw the first post was made by someone with the same avatar as you and a very similar name. Maybe you shouldn't use almost the same username and the same avatar post on every WoW forum if you don't want to be found (or just not link your characters to your forum accounts). It was 4 clicks away lol, don't blame me. Also, you should probably let people who know how to play give people advice. I'm not going to go into detail as to why but just know it's always cringey when 2K players try giving other people gameplay advice. But you do you of course.



You think MoP was just infinite CC, I think MoP was incredibly fun and allowed good players to stand out, unlike WoD/Legion - despite having perhaps too much CC. I can actually agree that some things in MoP was slightly overtuned (CC), but the issue with Legion compared to MoP is during MoP the classes still functioned basically the same way as in Cata, they just had a few things added. Fast forward to Legion the classes are completely changed and nothing is even slightly resembling WotLK/Cata/MoP design and is instead replaced by retarded passives etc. Therefore the simple conclusion can be made: The chances of Blizzard fixing the game with the current (Legion) design, or in Legion at all are next to zero. Roll-backing things (PvP-wise) to the way they were in MoP and working from there has a much much higher chance of actually working. Again, the chances of that happening (even at next expansion) are also very slim, but advocating the right things (i.e rolling back to an expansion which actually has a chance - although you don't understand that or see it for some reason with your limited 2.2K experience).

Actually thinking back, it's pretty funny. You know when MoP was about to end people were screaming for CC to be reduced, and sure I agreed - some CC should at that point be reduced. But guess what Blizzard did another Blizzard. Instead of just tweaking and reducing some of the instant CC a little bit they fucked up the entire game by merging DRs and pruning everyone and their mother of everything, so people complained about WoD for its entire duration and guess what - they did it again (and this time they fucked up things ontop of that which WoD had already fucked).

Also again, dogshit approach "don't like it - quit", yeah so my opinion is not as important as yours? I'm not allowed to voice my opinion and why the direction Blizzard is taking the game (PvP-wise) is horrible? Instead I should just quit so you can have your mongoloid game design which will continue to drop players until Blizzard removes arenas entirely because no one plays them? Yeah, no thanks.

PST: I'm done now, can't be arsed getting mad over another "stop complaining just live with it" Blizzard fan boy.

You're actually pathetic if you think me listing the class changes for 7.1.5 is bad work because I'm 2k XP, and yes, this is done. You won't get your way, you said it yourself you know blizzard won't change anything, so leave. Your time is done. Good riddance by the sounds of it as well.