Resto Shaman 4th golden trait.

[Deleted]

This fact doesn't make it any more useful. The 4'th trait is SHIT that requires a ton of AP to get to.

You'd be better off topping off the old traits to 4/4.

You're clueless and harming other players by spouting nonsense, 6 points spent anywhere will be the same cost :^)

[Korban]

6 points spent anywhere will be the same cost :^)

But they will yield MUCH BETTER results:

4/4 in Chain Heal, Riptide, HS/HW, Queen Ascendant, Titdal Chains - some of them with +5 points from Relics. OMFG.

Versus some extended spiritwalk for 3 points, and a total shit 4rth Golden Trait.

(Healing Rain at +30% is kinda nice tho)

[Deleted]

But they will yield MUCH BETTER results:

4/4 in Chain Heal, Riptide, HS/HW, Queen Ascendant, Titdal Chains - some of them with +5 points from Relics. OMFG.

Versus some extended spiritwalk for 3 points, and a total shit 4rth Golden Trait.

(Healing Rain at +30% is kinda nice tho)

Investing in your existing talents is a sub percentile gain per point, ignoring relics (which farther devalue it). More points in TC outside of Surge are broken due to GCD cap. In fact, buffeting waves, your strongest trait in this tier to buff, would only be approaching a single percent gain. You have a choice then, go into the new traits, get utility for your first 4 points, then gain a stronger boost to your output with the golden and HR traits. The other option is spending on existing points, foregoing extra utility afforded to you by a longer SWG, and get questionable gains from the existing traits.

It's an obvious choice if you do any research at all.

[Gunwolf]

Yes, Monks and especially Mistweaver Monks are very uncommon (MW is the least played spec in WoW) and a reason for that is their "uselessness". Their toolkit is strong but they are limited by their mana costs and their underwhelming raid CD. Monks are not just unpopular because they're Monks but because they're pretty underwhelming. You just need to check Mythic fights and see how many MW Monks are a) logged and b) existing. The number is tiny. I heard MW is strong in PvP but that's none of my business so I can't tell.

Mistweaver Monks get a trait in 7.2 just to "buff" our artifact skill. And our golden trait is another "buff" to our artifact skill. I mean Shamans get the 30% more healing for Healing Rain (I think that's awesome) and some kind of "okay" golden trait while MW get two traits improving the really bad artifact skill and one trait that decreases the CD of our pretty underwhelming raid cooldown by 40sec (yes, that is amazing).

To be honest I think both, MW and RShaman should get better traits with 7.2. I think both of them get pretty underwhelming new traits. I didn't want to hijack this thread and brag about MW, sorry.

Sure no prob, guess its always good to have a diff viewpoint. An extra raid CD for MW is prob a good idea, that's usually what is needed to give a lesser played spec a reason to be brought to raids. Life cocoon seems like its pretty good for tank cd, and revival is basically described as "aoe lay on hands+mass dispel" which prob has niche uses.... the 40 sec reduction looks good. Helping mana costs will surely help and since its a common complaint prob an important thing to look at... no idea on what kinda cd they could get or improve on that would be balanced still.

As for the new traits... they seem underwhelming for a lot of classes so... that is a bummer. The HR one is good true, while I can see ways to improve the other 2 we have. As for MW... it does kinda suck that its all just on ur artifact trait, but least revival will be more useable.

would it be cool to lets say recast GotQ not in place that was casted but on people that got hit by first cast no matter where they will be after that.

That would be good for dungeons but (could be) bad for raids. In raids: when it's cast on the same position again it could heal different targets when the first six have full health. The problem here is when there's no target left it heals nobody and even the HP buff is wasted.

I still think if the golden trait was instead for the second GotQ heal to be an absorb shield on group instead of direct heal it would solve both of these. You wouldn't really have overhealing, would be applied instantly after first heal, and it would technically stay with the group since it is an absorb shield on them and not another ground placed aoe heal.

[Korban]

Investing in your existing talents is a sub percentile gain per point

I dont get it. How is that? Did they nerf the extra point gains in old traits?

Almost everyone thinks that new traits are trash and they are decking out old traits first cause they're more useful:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753735886

[Deleted]

I dont get it. How is that? Did they nerf the extra point gains in old traits?

Almost everyone thinks that new traits are trash and they are decking out old traits first cause they're more useful:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753735886

Consensus of an ignorant mass of people doesn't make your choice correct :^)

[Korban]

Consensus of an ignorant mass of people doesn't make your choice correct :^)

Sure...

And what makes you such an expert on the subject?

[Nythiz]

and a total shit 4rth Golden Trait.

(Healing Rain at +30% is kinda nice tho)

I dislike the new golden trait as much as most other resto shamans do (mostly because it's use is quite limited and doesn't really apply that well in M+ and pvp, whereas other healers seem to get traits that are awesome in all situations); but lets be realistic here: Your GotQ in a raid setting is still a significant portion of your healing done.

Checking a few logs on Warcraftlogs shows me between 2.5-5% of total healing done on a lot of them. (And if the skill was used more frequently it would be even higher, since a lot of them dont use it on cooldown)
In the worst case scenario, with some overhealing and all, you're still looking at a 1-2% healing increase for a single trait point; in the best case it's 5% healing increase for a single point.
On top of that you're also need not forget the great synergy of GotQ and CBT, because this trait enhances that hugely as well.

The healing rain talent totally depends on the encounter and playstyle and can swing from a mere 1% healing increase to a whooping 4-5% increase as well.

Between the two you're looking at anywhere between 3-10% healing increase, depending on the encounter. Which is a 0.5-1.7% healing increase per point invested. Certainly the "main traits" can be very very close in cases that benefit that specific trait, but I'm not so sure they're better on average.

And don't forget that the traits become a bit weaker the more points you have in them; going from 100% riptide healing to 105% riptide healing with Pull of the Sea is a 5% increase, but going from 115% to 120% is only 4.35% increase (relatively). To get that 1% healing increase that you get from the new traits "on average"; you'd need to have 20% healing done from riptide, which is possible but unlikely to be true on every fight.

[Jynus]

I dislike the new golden trait as much as most other resto shamans do (mostly because it's use is quite limited and doesn't really apply that well in M+ and pvp, whereas other healers seem to get traits that are awesome in all situations); but lets be realistic here: Your GotQ in a raid setting is still a significant portion of your healing done.

Checking a few logs on Warcraftlogs shows me between 2.5-5% of total healing done on a lot of them. (And if the skill was used more frequently it would be even higher, since a lot of them dont use it on cooldown)
In the worst case scenario, with some overhealing and all, you're still looking at a 1-2% healing increase for a single trait point; in the best case it's 5% healing increase for a single point.
On top of that you're also need not forget the great synergy of GotQ and CBT, because this trait enhances that hugely as well.

You can't use it on CD though. And quite a lot of the second charges will be wasted or not near as powerful just due to other passive healing.

You're correct in that about a 1-2% norm increase and 5% best case given some best case encounters like maybe krosus.

Regardless of all that, everything else in the existing chain is also about 1-5% increase too. Without needing to dump 4 points into a wasted talent first. It's a no brainer to finish off existing hps talents before new chain.

[Korban]

Checking a few logs on Warcraftlogs shows me between 2.5-5% of total healing done on a lot of them. (And if the skill was used more frequently it would be even higher, since a lot of them dont use it on cooldown)

First of all, 2.5%-5% healing from your "best" trait is bad.

Second, you are not supposed to use it on Cooldown. You are supposed to use it when you need it. The synergy with CB totem is dead wrong too - because you just don't use it when the raid is topped off. Or it's hard to use because people are spread out. Or they are topped off by the time the 2sec cast is finished. And you're supposed to perfectly hit only 6 people which is not easy.

Then the trait itself: fires after 3 seconds when there is a 90% chance probability that these 6 people are going to be topped off, or nearly topped off. Or in completely different place by then.

So no, you are not looking anywhere remotely close to 10% increase. This is a very bad designed trait no matter how you spin it.

Hell, you can beat it with a couple well placed Unleash Life buffed Chain Heals. Easier to do too, because of smart effect.

[Deleted]

Sure...

And what makes you such an expert on the subject?

Nothing mate, I just wrote the only available log parser for Resto and did 20 minutes of mental math to know that anyone taking old traits can go pound sand if they think it's better.

:^)

[furiousferret]

I get why RShams don't top meters, that being said I've struggled for years convincing my raid leaders. I don't do Mythic, just a middle tier raider (Heroic, Normal) and at that level everyone is obsessed with numbers. Spirit Link is awesome but I'd almost like it to be a talent at the point you can choose that or better HPS.

Back to the subject. I love Gift of the Queen, even use it in Keystones if I can afford to use the global, its free and tops off melee just before big hits come in. The points extending SG is what I don't like.

[Nythiz]

You can't use it on CD though. And quite a lot of the second charges will be wasted or not near as powerful just due to other passive healing.

I know that, that's why I said that in a worst case scenario 2.5% healing from GotQ will likely result in only 1-2% more healing from the golden trait.

Regardless of all that, everything else in the existing chain is also about 1-5% increase too. Without needing to dump 4 points into a wasted talent first. It's a no brainer to finish off existing hps talents before new chain.

I find it very hard to believe that 2.7% increased crit on chain heal (going from 110% to 113%), or 4% increased healing from HS/HW (going from 115% to 120%) is a 5% healing increase for a single point. Hell in a lot of cases those traits don't even get near the 1% throughput increase.
The new golden trait and the healing rain trait can on their own far outclass those point for point.

The only "problem" is that you have to go through 4 points of SWG bonus (which isn't bad per-se, but is a quality of life increase at best) to get to them.

I'm not going to pick up the new traits first. I'm doing too much mythic+ and other small group content not to go with some boosts to HS/Riptide first.
But outright dismissing the strength of the new traits, just because the rest of the herd is saying so seems a bit naive in my eyes.

First of all, 2.5%-5% healing from your "best" trait is bad.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this then.
If a single trait point gives me 2.5% - 5% healing increase, I call that significant.

Second, you are not supposed to use it on Cooldown. You are supposed to use it when you need it. The synergy with CB totem is dead wrong too - because you just don't use it when the raid is topped off. Or it's hard to use because people are spread out. Or they are topped off by the time the 2sec cast is finished. And you're supposed to perfectly hit only 6 people which is not easy.

I'm not saying you have to use it on cooldown. But Gift of the Queen is still strong even if you don't use it on cooldown. The 2.5% healing done log only used GotQ 3 or 4 times in a 6.5 minute fight.
I'm not really understanding your issue with the CBT synergy. GotQ adds a ton of healing to your CBT, so much so that in a lot of situations people hold one or the other to combine them. The point I was mostly trying to make was that since they're often combined, there is another "hidden" 25% extra GotQ healing hidden in the CBT healing done. Getting a free extra charge of GotQ, even if it's 100% overhealing for that matter, feeds into your CBT.

We can discuss about how GotQ isn't the ideal heal, and it's hard to land it so it's 100% effective healing. But the same can be said of certain other heals. If you can land it on a cluster of people, chances are that 6 are injured enough that you can get some potential out of it. And if your raid is constantly too high on health, than maybe you are playing with too many healers or in too low of a difficulty
Sure some fights don't favor GotQ, but the same can be said about many other heals.

Then the trait itself: fires after 3 seconds when there is a 90% chance probability that these 6 people are going to be topped off, or nearly topped off. Or in completely different place by then.

Of course. That is why this trait by definition doesn't double the healing of GotQ, it's most likely going to be a lot more overhealing and/or missing.
That said, there is also some fight knowledge involved. Throwing it on the melee group can often guarantee that they will still be there 3 seconds later. Of course you shouldn't throw it 2 seconds before Krosus' slam destroys the ground, that's just silly.

So no, you are not looking anywhere remotely close to 10% increase. This is a very bad designed trait no matter how you spin it.

Hell, you can beat it with a couple well placed Unleash Life buffed Chain Heals. Easier to do too, because of smart effect.

I would have preferred the old golden traits as well where HS/HW apply absorb shields. Hell I dislike this one as well; as someone who does mythic+ regularily none of the new traits really appeal to me. But I see a lot of baseless statements made about how the new golden trait is completely worthless.
Simple math and log checking can simply show that this single trait can easily be responsible for a sizable healing boost. You might not like the design, but that doesn't make a trait bad per definition.

[Deleted]

I dont get it. How is that? Did they nerf the extra point gains in old traits?

Almost everyone thinks that new traits are trash and they are decking out old traits first cause they're more useful:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753735886

So let's clear this up mathematically then.
Of course these numbers will vary from player to player and from boss fight to boss fight, but let's take my latest krosus log as an example
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=20
A pretty standard log with torrent, guidance echo and high tide. I currently have 2 pull of the sea and 1 wavecrash relic.

What one additional point in the traits would have gotten me:

Pull of the sea riptide old healing = 19.14%, riptide new healing =(19.14%/1.25)*1.3=19.906% gain: 0.766%
Empowered Droplets hr old healing = 9.61%, hr new healing = ((9.61%/1.362)/1.06)*1.08*1.382= 9,935% gain: 0.325%
Tidal Chains hw+hs old healing = 4.73%, new healing = (4.73%/1.39)*1.42=4.83% gain: 0.1% This however assumes that i cast more hw with the cast times saved so this may be ~0.2 if you cast something else instead
Buffeting Waves hw+hs old healing = 4.73%, new healing =(4.73%/1.15)*1.2 = 4.935% gain: 0.206%
Wavescrashhst old healing=11.46%, new healing =(11.46/1.4)*1.5=12.28 gain: 0.819%
Floodwatersch old healing=29.60%, new healing= (29.60)/1.396)*1.426=30.236% gain: 0.636%
Queen Ascendant This log shows 31/45 ch casts and 13/22 hw cats had queen ascendant up -> old healing 29.6%*0.69+4.73%*0.59=23.129%, new healing = (23.129%/1.15)*1.2 =24.23% gain: 1.1%
You do not gain healing from the other traits.

Now let's have a look at what the new traits give me:
Tidewalker hard to quantify, but let's say over the course of the whole fight I can squeeze in a single hw cast by spending 4 points which otherwise was blank time. That would give me (4.73%/22)/4= 0.05%
Pitter-Patter hr old healing = 9.61%, new healing =9.61%*1.3=12.493 gain:2.883%
Deep Water gotq old healing=6.61%. Let's say this is really as bad as everyone says it is (in most fights it is rather good) and overheals/doesn't hit 75% of the time this would still give me 6.61%*1.25=8.263% gain: 1.65%

So let's recap all of this:
Spending ap on the 7 traits gives me 3.952% more healing.
Spending ap on the 6 new traits gives me 4.733%. I can then still invest another point in queen's ascendant and bring that number up to 5.833%

And that is ASSUMING 75% OVERHEAL on the golden trait. If I can get my golden trait to only overheal 40% of the time, the golden trait alone gives me as much healing as all 7 old traits combined.

These numbers will as i said differ from fight to fight and player to player. Generally a trait loses value the more points (aka relics) you have in a trait.
Of course I showcased an ae healing scenario with a decent amount of healing rain. However I also had fights with 16-18% healing rain, if I would take cloudburst I would get even more value from the hr traits and the golden one and even less from the riptide one. While using more single target heal spells instead of chainheal would give tidal chains and buffeting waves much more value, you lose value from queen's, floodwaters and emppwered droplets.
I also ignored guidance for all spells, the golden trait will get a nice chunk of additional value from it.
This leads to the new traits being better in nearly any raiding scenario where you can somewhat make use of healing rain.
The old trait's only make more sense if you mainly run mythic+, where i honestly also think the golden trait is shit. Maybe it would be wise to put the first point in queen's for raid healing but otherwise, get that golden trait!

If you want I can also do the calculations with a more single target oriented spec/boss

TL;DR
Raid Healing -> new traits, maybe queen's beforehand
Only running mythic+ / Have a healing rain usage of <4% of overall output -> old traits

[Korban]

krosus

LOL, no...

[Imnick]

Do you have some better numbers to make calculations from or is "no" your sum total contribution to this dialogue?
It would be much easier to show if you were right or wrong, ie get literally anything useful out of this conversation, if you had provided something that you would actually be happy with him making calculations from instead of reading one line, saying "no", and disregarding everything else.

[obesemidget]

Consensus of an ignorant mass of people doesn't make your choice correct :^)

Are you speaking from a PVP perspective because most movement phases in boss fights are sub 15 sec. In fact I don't know of a single time I need to be casting for 15sec straight.

Choosing to buff traits that actually help now, then taking the "utility" buff later to get the 30% Healing rain buff seems to make the most sense seeing that you can buff 5 traits in the time you would spend to get that trait.

Not to mention you don't need any of these new traits to clear current content.

[Gracos]

I think it's an incredibly boring and subpar trait as well. I was hoping for something more interesting. Just throwing some ideas out there, but how about a trait that spreads Riptide? It'd synergize well with Deluge and High Tide.

Ripple: Casting Chain Heal on a target affected by your Riptide causes your Riptide to spread to all targets affected by Chain Heal with the same remaining duration. Applying Riptide with Ripple does not refresh its duration.

If you want extra synergy, it can cast Riptide on each target hit by Chain Heal instead of simply applying the HoT of Riptide so it can benefit from Torrent. It'd make for a fun AoE healing playstyle.

[Deleted]

LOL, no...

I already suggested to do it for another boss but the only thing you are capable of saying is "lol, no". So which nighthold boss do you want it done on?

How about my latest botanist kill then? I used way more st spells on it and also had rather low healing rain usage, as well as using gift of the queen 3 times less than I could have used it, so right up your alley.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=20

I won't bother writing down every calculation, if you want to check the numbers, just plug the different percentage values into my other post.

Pull of the sea riptide gain: 0.86%
Empowered Droplets gain: 0.21%
Tidal Chains gain: 0.29%
Buffeting Waves gain: 0.7%
Wavescrash gain: 0.9%
Floodwaters gain: 0.35%
Queen Ascendant: gain: 0.64%

Old traits: 3.95% gain, a little less than on krosus


Tidewalker Botanist is a longer fight and there is more movement involved so let's say i get about 1.5 more hws on average gain: 0.075%
Pitter-Patter gain: 1.88%
Deep Water with 75% overhealing gain: 1.33%

new traits: 3.51%, if i again took queen's I would get 4.2%, picking the best trait for this encounter would get me up to 4.41%

If you do it the other way around and only have look at the 6 best traits then you would actually fare slightly better with the old traits (3.74 vs. 3.51), but this i a fight were I
a) can't get much value out of healing rain
b) did not use gotq to its full potential
c) did not use cloudburst, which scales insanly good with the golden trait
d) still calculated with a retarded 75% overheal/miss rate for the golden trait
e) still did not factor in any guidance value from gotq
f) did not give the fact, that you give up to 6 more people a 10% health buff for 6 sec any value at all.

If you are a raidhealer who regularly runs with the high tide talent and cloudburst you'd want to get the golden trait first.
If you do not run cloudburst, get queen's and then get the golden trait.


Another angle to look at this is the following:
If you shoot for the golden trait you will be a worse healer for the first 5 traits. At the 6th trait you will be roughly on par or better, depending on the boss.
At everything 7 traits and above, you will be better.
A 54 trait pre patch player will have gotten 3 traits near instant.
Thus it boiles down to the question "Do i want to be worse for the next 2 traits, but then be better for the next 7 or do i want to better for the next 2 and then be worse for the next 7?
I think this question is easily answered unless you are currently wiping on a boss due to 0.3-0.4% overall healing missing.

Please keep in mind that these statements are only true for healing in a raid. Gotq and hr are significantly worse in 5 man content, thus if you are mostly running this content or do raids with 10 people all the time, please get Pull of the sea, Buffeting Waves, Wavescrash and Queen Ascendant before going after the golden trait.
For mythic+, our golden trait unfortunately really sucks.

[Korban]

Another angle to look at this is the following:
If you shoot for the golden trait you will be a worse healer for the first 5 traits. At the 6th trait you will be roughly on par or better, depending on the boss.
At everything 7 traits and above, you will be better.

Let's put it this way. I don't need the new traits to beat current raid content. I run a lot of Mythics+ and i'm having a ton of fun there. So old traits are much better suited there.


So I'd rather buff the old important traits first. Then when you get to a decent enough AK you can power-level the new traits.