I'd love to of seen WoW sub numbers before 7.2 dropped.

[Relapses]

I'm not sure why you are replying to me, since I didn't make either of those statements.

When you say shit like:

I believe it simply got the game design very right, attracting a far wider range of players than today's design does.

...in literally the sentence preceding the one I quoted, it's hard not to make the assumption you want the game to be catered solely around what you perceive to be "good game design."

Game which is in a positive upwards cycle is much, much more enjoyable to play than one that is in a negative downward spiral and losing players. For example, when subs are increasing it is easy to recruit. When the game is in decline you're constantly fighting to keep your guild afloat.

MMOs are no longer as popular as they were when WoW was gaining subscribers in the Vanilla through WotLK era. The game reached market saturation in WotLK and gaming trends have moved away from MMOs since. WoW's current model relies on surges in subscriber levels at the beginning of expansions followed by upticks for content patches. The perfect storm of coincidence which resulted in WoW's early runaway success will not happen again in the future and it's extremely intellectually dishonest to pretend like it will. Arguments which are bolstered by subscriber levels often completely ignore these facts and are inherently flawed since we will never know the real reasons people quit the game.

[Polarthief]

This literally happens every expansion, game launches and population booms

No it doesn't. The only "boom" was MoP ending to WoD starting. We don't have data for Legion so I can't say there, but that's definitive proof that this is incorrect.

I mean, I literally keep that chart in my signature for reasons like this

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm not sure why you are replying to me, since I didn't make either of those statements.



Game which is in a positive upwards cycle is much, much more enjoyable to play than one that is in a negative downward spiral and losing players. For example, when subs are increasing it is easy to recruit. When the game is in decline you're constantly fighting to keep your guild afloat.

- - - Updated - - -



MoP was the last xpac I bought, and I played it for a month towards the end. It was 100% on-the-rails from questing, to dungeons, to raids, to that ridiculous free-loot ADHD island. It is honestly the worst gaming experience I've ever had, and the reason why I'm not even considering WoW unless they completely change their design direction.

so you played it after all the catch up stuff was in and ignored every thing that wasn't for catch up. its not the games fault you ignored the world or that you only played after they added in a ton of catch up stuff, i would agree that the raids and dungeons were on rails but there were alot hidden rares treasures s and even quest that you wouldn't find if you were just following the zone story lines.

[Manabomb]

This literally happens every expansion, game launches and population booms, then people drop off for a while. Then 6 months later when a major content patch launches people come back. It has been like this for 10 years lol

It happens with some expansions harder than others, as WoD made it perfectly clear. Plus, they didn't rush most content patches involved with WotLK, Cata or MoP, atleast not to the extent that 7.2 looks anyway. It's very clear that 7.2 is to either make Q1 or Q2 look good. It's why it was released 3 months before the raid is scheduled to be released, as a large portion of players are already very much done with the other world and story content Legion has to offer.

But Blizzard is a business, they are expected to react to losing money exactly like a business does.

[Deleted]

it's hard not to make the assumption you want the game to be catered solely around what you perceive to be "good game design."

I'm not sure why you are so angry about this. It's just a game. I didn't say anything about what the game should or should not be catered around, simply pointing out that I believe they hit the sweet spot with the game design in vanilla/TBC. You don't grow to those numbers of paid monthly subs if your game design is bad.

MMOs are no longer as popular as they were when WoW was gaining subscribers in the Vanilla through WotLK era. The game reached market saturation in WotLK and gaming trends have moved away from MMOs since.

I don't find this line of argument convincing, or useful at all really. It feels awfully lot like a vacuous argument. You see that WoW stopped attracting new players in WotLK for whatever reason, you call this "market saturation", and then imply that WoW couldn't have possibly grown more because the market is saturated. Or you see WoW (the biggest sub MMO by far) losing popularity for whatever reason, call that "MMOs no longer being popular", and then imply that WoW could not possibly be gaining subs anymore because MMOs are no longer being popular. Seems to me like you're assuming your conclusions.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No it doesn't. The only "boom" was MoP ending to WoD starting. We don't have data for Legion so I can't say there, but that's definitive proof that this is incorrect.

I mean, I literally keep that chart in my signature for reasons like this

you do realize that going form cata to mop we got more players then going from classic to bc right? or from bc to wrath? or wrath to cata? 500k joined from classic to bc same with bc to wrath, wrath to cata stayed the same at 12m and cata to mop gained 900k theses are numbers from your charts acording to them mop had a bigger boom at launch then bc wrath and cata it was only beaten out by wod.

[Aggrophobic]

Well, servers are pretty dead even after the patch so I doubt it helped much.
Then again there is nothing to actually do in the patch so why would people come back now?

[Deleted]

so you played it after all the catch up stuff was in and ignored every thing that wasn't for catch up. its not the games fault you ignored the world or that you only played after they added in a ton of catch up stuff, i would agree that the raids and dungeons were on rails but there were alot hidden rares treasures s and even quest that you wouldn't find if you were just following the zone story lines.

I simply played the game the way it was presented to me from the first quest to killing Garrosh. Maybe there were hidden rare treasures or whatever small side things, but I went through all the content and killed Garrosh so as far as I could see the content was finished. I don't know how you can possibly blame me rather than the game design.

[Sliske]

This literally happens every expansion, game launches and population booms, then people drop off for a while. Then 6 months later when a major content patch launches people come back. It has been like this for 10 years lol

No, no, my dude.

This is actually a big secret. OP has just blown it wide open though.

Its a complete secret that Blizzard releases content just as quarters end or begin. Its also TOP secret that they release content right before other games' launches.

Its also a secret that Blizzar.. sorry, I mean Bli$$ard is actually a company. I know. I always thought of them as my careworkers or minders. But no, it turns out they're actually a company... do you know what the main purpose of a company is?

You aren't gonna like this...

To make money.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I simply played the game the way it was presented to me from the first quest to killing Garrosh. Maybe there were hidden rare treasures or whatever small side things, but I went through all the content and killed Garrosh so as far as I could see the content was finished. I don't know how you can possibly blame me rather than the game design.

you could say the same thing about any any expansion if you want to go though it with blinders on.

[Deleted]

you could say the same thing about any any expansion if you want to go though it with blinders on.

You couldn't say it about vanilla or TBC. There was no "blinders on" option in them.

[Deadite]

Well, servers are pretty dead even after the patch so I doubt it helped much.
Then again there is nothing to actually do in the patch so why would people come back now?

I fell for it again. Had a look at all the content in 7.2 so dropped the 190k for a token. Caveat emptor i guess. I would have waited a few weeks had i know that most of the advertised content will be released in dribs and drabs.

More that that tho is the utterly petty move to make stored rep tokens only work to exalted and even more irksome they made the older garrison followers equipment tokens only work to 850. What a shower of cunts.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You couldn't say it about vanilla or TBC. There was no "blinders on" option in them.

sure you could if you had enough people to carry you.

[Aggrophobic]

I fell for it again. Had a look at all the content in 7.2 so dropped the 190k for a token. Caveat emptor i guess. I would have waited a few weeks had i know that most of the advertised content will be released in dribs and drabs.

More that that tho is the utterly petty move to make stored rep tokens only work to exalted and even more irksome they made the older garrison followers equipment tokens only work to 850. What a shower of cunts.

Yeah, you know it's sad when you actually miss WoD.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I fell for it again. Had a look at all the content in 7.2 so dropped the 190k for a token. Caveat emptor i guess. I would have waited a few weeks had i know that most of the advertised content will be released in dribs and drabs.

More that that tho is the utterly petty move to make stored rep tokens only work to exalted and even more irksome they made the older garrison followers equipment tokens only work to 850. What a shower of cunts.

i mean you'll get almost all of it on Tuesday only thing that's really gated behind any kind of time is the story quest and story quest have always been gated.

[Deadite]

Yeah, you know it's sad when you actually miss WoD.

The sun will never rise on the day when i would say that.

[Relapses]

I'm not sure why you are so angry about this. It's just a game. I didn't say anything about what the game should or should not be catered around, simply pointing out that I believe they hit the sweet spot with the game design in vanilla/TBC. You don't grow to those numbers of paid monthly subs if your game design is bad.

I'm not angry, I'm irritated. You're making awful fucking arguments then accusing ME of "jumping to conclusions." When your entire awful ideology revolves around the supposition that your perception of what constitutes "good game design" is omnipotent and unquestionable, it's hard to have a rational conversation with you.

I don't find this line of argument convincing, or useful at all really. It feels awfully lot like a vacuous argument. You see that WoW stopped attracting new players in WotLK for whatever reason, you call this "market saturation", and then imply that WoW couldn't have possibly grown more because the market is saturated. Or you see WoW (the biggest sub MMO by far) losing popularity for whatever reason, call that "MMOs no longer being popular", and then imply that WoW could not possibly be gaining subs anymore because MMOs are no longer being popular. Seems to me like you're assuming your conclusions.

Do you actually honestly believe if Blizzard had kept the same design they had in TBC/WotLK that WoW would have just kept adding players quarter after quarter? Do I really need to walk you through how incredibly inept this line of thinking is and how there's a very real possibility all of the changes Blizzard has made to the game over the years are the exact reason we're even playing it today? I can break down each of the concepts you've conveniently glossed over in an attempt to disregard what I'm saying but frankly you're not even worth the effort.

[Deleted]

I'm not angry, I'm irritated. You're making awful fucking arguments then accusing ME of "jumping to conclusions." When your entire awful ideology revolves around the supposition that your perception of what constitutes "good game design" is omnipotent and unquestionable, it's hard to have a rational conversation with you.

Calm down. I think you assume I'm someone else, because I never accused you of "jumping to conclusions" or claimed to be "omnipotent and unquestionable".

Do you actually honestly believe if Blizzard had kept the same design they had in TBC/WotLK that WoW would have just kept adding players quarter after quarter?

I believe it is possible. The gaming market has grown since then and there are PC games that are hitting ridiculous numbers like 70 million active monthly players. I don't think you can just dismiss the possibility that WoW could've grown past the 12 million or so that it peaked at, the potential market is certainly there.

Do I really need to walk you through how incredibly inept this line of thinking is and how there's a very real possibility all of the changes Blizzard has made to the game over the years are the exact reason we're even playing it today? I can break down each of the concepts you've conveniently glossed over in an attempt to disregard what I'm saying but frankly you're not even worth the effort.

I believe that is the point of these types of forums. It's much more productive to actually make your point, rather than get all upset and yell insults while omitting to explain how exactly you reached your conclusions.

[Relapses]

Calm down. I think you assume I'm someone else, because I never accused you of "jumping to conclusions" or claimed to be "omnipotent and unquestionable".

You literally said "seems like you're assuming your conclusions," while rambling on about what constituted good and bad game design. The former is another way of saying "jumping to conclusions," while the latter is just you subverting your opinion on game design to be above reproach. Fun fact: Just because you liked the way TBC/WotLK were doesn't mean they were the best. And just because more people were playing then doesn't mean that it's superior. As @Osmeric said earlier, that's like seeing data that more people were buying cars in the 1960s than today and concluding that cars made in that era are better.

I believe it is possible. The gaming market has grown since then and there are PC games that are hitting ridiculous numbers like 70 million active monthly players

Games which are boasting these kinds of numbers are able to be enjoyed in small, self-contained windows. League of Legends, for example, can be played casually for 20-40 minutes at a time and you'll still have the same experience as somebody who plays 20 hours a day. If you think that a MMO which requires people to play constantly just to stay relevant would ever be able to boast numbers like that I don't know what to tell you. In fact, MMOs being inherently time consuming is likely the exact reason the gaming market has moved away from them.

I don't think you can just dismiss the possibility that WoW could've grown past the 12 million or so that it peaked at, the potential market is certainly there.

For the entirety of WotLK, WoW remained stagnant around 12M subscribers. That's almost eight quarters of consistency. Do you really think that nobody quit WoW at all during the two years it stayed at this level? No. Plenty of people quit but during this time there were enough new players to offset the ones quitting. This is known as "churn." When churn rates are consistently low over an extended period of time it's usually indicative of one thing: Market saturation. And while you're right, I have no way of knowing whether WoW actually reached market saturation in WotLK, I think it's a fair approximation to make based off of overall gaming trends. WoW began consistently losing subscribers post-WotLK but once a game reaches market saturation there's only way to go. To me, the fact that WoW has retained as many players as it has over the course of time is more indicative of good design. There's a very real possibility that if Blizzard hadn't made any changes to their game, their competition may have offered a better alternative and WoW may have died off completely. And while it's easy to say, "none of the supposed 'WoW killers' have ever managed to put a dent in Blizzard's MMO market share," there's no real way for us to rewrite history and pretend WoW stayed the way it was while its competition introduced the features which have since become the hallmark of anti-retail arguments (most notably, the LFG system).

I believe that is the point of these types of forums. It's much more productive to actually make your point, rather than get all upset and yell insults while omitting to explain how exactly you reached your conclusions.

I've spent hundreds of hours debunking similar notions in pro-Legacy threads so my inclination to explain the same core concepts has worn me thin on this subject. For the record, I'm not upset despite the colorful language I use. And I'm not trying to insult you when I say that your argument is "fucking terrible."

[Deleted]

I like the fact that only fanatics stay and play the game. Makes me comfortable when I know that people won't leave the group after first wipe.