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  1. #61
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    Let Israel do what it wants to do and others countries stop interferring

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eraxx View Post
    Let Israel do what it wants to do and others countries stop interferring
    Why?

    /10chars

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJrogue View Post
    Why?

    /10chars
    because it is THEIR country.. let em get on with what they want to do... other countries should focus on their own problems in THEIR country

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Eraxx View Post
    because it is THEIR country.. let em get on with what they want to do... other countries should focus on their own problems in THEIR country
    exactly. @TJrogue and I have taken time to right a longer version of what Eraxx said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    TJrogue, before you start raving, you might want to put yourself in their shoes, i know empathy is not the male sex's strongest suit, but you kind need to be doing that more often. - the international community comes to your country (mine is the UK) and insists the British government shouldn't build more homes in its own country because a violent group that's been spreading terror and hate don't like it and threaten to cause more terror and hate if you do. A group that has no honour or sense of justice, and continues to spread terror and hate whether you build new stuff or do not.

    Lets understand haters, violent haters called terrorists these days of which the PA is, they will continue to bomb you until there hate filled objective is complete, regardless of what you do. Do not deny legal law abiding people who need homes those homes because haters will get upset and cause more trouble.

    You have to continue living - in England after the terrorist drive in, Theresa May told the nation you can't stop your life because of these acts, because a hater or a bully, someone who doesn't want you around or like you would try to kill you for being or living. You can't stop your life. I don't expect or think Israel should do so just because the PA or terror cells will get angry and do more stuff.

    Build your homes for your people, and God speed in stopping everyone of those terrorists and bringing their whole network to justice. It would be hypocritical of me a Brit, not to advocate this. And whiles I understand that no one wants violence escalated at all, it is not Israel building homes that should be condemned - focus that condmenation on the violent terrorists instead if they do anything in response to that.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2017-04-03 at 10:51 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eraxx View Post
    because it is THEIR country.. let em get on with what they want to do... other countries should focus on their own problems in THEIR country
    Not really. It's contested territory. Are you saying Israel should act outside international law? Cause that's what rogue nations do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    exactly. @TJrogue and I have taken time to right a longer version of what Eraxx said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    TJrogue, before you start raving, you might want to put yourself in their shoes, i know empathy is not the male sex's strongest suit, but you kind need to be doing that more often. - the international community comes to your country (mine is the UK) and insists the British government shouldn't build more homes in its own country because a violent group that's been spreading terror and hate don't like it and threaten to cause more terror and hate if you do. A group that has no honour or sense of justice, and continues to spread terror and hate whether you build new stuff or do not.

    Lets understand haters, violent haters called terrorists these days of which the PA is, they will continue to bomb you until there hate filled objective is complete, regardless of what you do. Do not deny legal law abiding people who need homes those homes because haters will get upset and cause more trouble.

    You have to continue living - in England after the terrorist drive in, Theresa May told the nation you can't stop your life because of these acts, because a hater or a bully, someone who doesn't want you around or like you would try to kill you for being or living. You can't stop your life. I don't expect or think Israel should do so just because the PA or terror cells will get angry and do more stuff.

    Build your homes for your people, and God speed in stopping everyone of those terrorists and bringing their whole network to justice. It would be hypocritical of me a Brit, not to.
    The analogy doesn't stand. A much more appropriate analogy would have been UK building settlements in territories contested with the republic of ireland.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slicer299 View Post
    All of that land, 100% of it, belongs to Israel. It was stolen from Israel over 2000 years ago. Israel didn't magically pop into existence in 1948 like anti semites like to claim. Palestine is the thief, Palestine is the murderer, Israel is the victim. The UN is a corrupt and illegitimate organization that needs to be abolished.

    No it doesn't. International law states that it doesn't. The entire world besides Israel has more or less unanimously called their settlements ILLEGAL.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    exactly. @TJrogue and I have taken time to right a longer version of what Eraxx said.
    Your longer version keeps ignoring the actual underlying problem.
    This is their country only in your mind, and as long as you keep being deluded, innocent Israeli and Palestinian people will keep dying, and most of the world will keep hating on Israel.
    Neither millenia-old religious claims, nor military conquests make a country legitimate and worthy of recognition by the other countries.
    Last edited by Natylyaz; 2017-04-03 at 10:54 AM.
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    I don't see how occupying another country, killing indiscriminately and stealing land has anything to do with being in a grown up world.


    It's clear Israel doesn't want peace. If it did, it wouldn't be doing this.
    Ha! This map is a joke..

    #1 Pre 1948, yes, the area we are talking about was called Palestine and was under the Turkish government and then British Mandate. This part of the land had always been occupied by a different "empire" and was never a free nation. So when you say "Israel seized land" that is not true. There was no land to seize. The area that was called Palestine was decided to be split into 2 nations which brings me to point #2.

    #2 Did you know that the Arab states did not agree with the UN Partition Resolution in 1947?
    The Jewish people did agree. We agreed for a 2 state solution back in 1947, the Arabs did not.
    And now they come up with this map as an excuse??

    #3 Before the 1967 war, do you know who "had" the West Bank and the Gaza strip?
    The West Bank was a JORDANIAN territory, and Gaza strip was an EGYPTIAN territory.
    As part as this war, yes, we took control of these areas from JORDAN and EGYPT, there were not taken from "Palestine".

    This is a joke.

    And for reference - Yes, I'm Israeli.
    I'm actually a leftist. I say give them the land, I vote for the most left winged party in Israel, but I can't stand the lies and propaganda of the BDS and people who think they know what's going on here.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by TJrogue View Post

    The analogy doesn't stand. A much more appropriate analogy would have been UK building settlements in territories contested with the republic of ireland.
    Actually it isn't. THe analogy is quite correct. There is no 2-state, there never has been, to say it is like Ireland assumes and legitimizes that another sovereign nation or state exists there, which it does not. No matter how hard the PA and its backers (mainly Jordan) are trying to carve one out - by force (war that failed in 60s) by terror, or by hammering the international community and drowning them in false rhetoric trying to garner sympathy while blowing people up, just because they play on western guilt over colonialism and the slave trade. Israel is no apartheid state, no oppressor of people, it is the PA itself that grossly committs crimes against humanity and its own people and yet press focus and your attention is levied agianst Israel and you compare it to Ireland or South Africa?

    No the analogy is spot on. Let us not imagine or ratify a state that actually doesn't exist no matter how much the PA yells out that it does.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefds View Post
    Ha! This map is a joke..

    #1 Pre 1948, yes, the area we are talking about was called Palestine and was under the Turkish government and then British Mandate. This part of the land had always been occupied by a different "empire" and was never a free nation. So when you say "Israel seized land" that is not true. There was no land to seize. The area that was called Palestine was decided to be split into 2 nations which brings me to point #2.

    #2 Did you know that the Arab states did not agree with the UN Partition Resolution in 1947?
    The Jewish people did agree. We agreed for a 2 state solution back in 1947, the Arabs did not.
    And now they come up with this map as an excuse??

    #3 Before the 1967 war, do you know who "had" the West Bank and the Gaza strip?
    The West Bank was a JORDANIAN territory, and Gaza strip was an EGYPTIAN territory.
    As part as this war, yes, we took control of these areas from JORDAN and EGYPT, there were not taken from "Palestine".

    This is a joke.

    And for reference - Yes, I'm Israeli.
    I'm actually a leftist. I say give them the land, I vote for the most left winged party in Israel, but I can't stand the lies and propaganda of the BDS and people who think they know what's going on here.
    I doubt you'll find many reasonable persons saying the neighbouring Arab countries were the nicest chaps in 1947.
    But noone can say the whole of the current Israel/Palestine territory legitimately belongs to the Jewish people, as some of it was indeed forcibly taken from civilian Arab population, we don't care about which empire was ruling at the time here.
    And this is what several people in this thread claim, and a big problem overall.
    Last edited by Natylyaz; 2017-04-03 at 11:20 AM.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Actually it isn't. THe analogy is quite correct. There is no 2-state, there never has been, to say it is like Ireland assumes and legitimizes that another sovereign nation or state exists there, which it does not. No matter how hard the PA and its backers (mainly Jordan) are trying to carve one out - by force (war that failed in 60s) by terror, or by hammering the international community and drowning them in false rhetoric trying to garner sympathy while blowing people up, just because they play on western guilt over colonialism and the slave trade. Israel is no apartheid state, no oppressor of people, it is the PA itself that grossly committs crimes against humanity and its own people and yet press focus and your attention is levied agianst Israel and you compare it to Ireland or South Africa?

    No the analogy is spot on. Let us not imagine or ratify a state that actually doesn't exist no matter how much the PA yells out that it does.
    Yeah I see a lot of emotions at play so I will kindly excuse myself from the debate.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Actually it isn't. THe analogy is quite correct. There is no 2-state, there never has been, to say it is like Ireland assumes and legitimizes that another sovereign nation or state exists there, which it does not. No matter how hard the PA and its backers (mainly Jordan) are trying to carve one out - by force (war that failed in 60s) by terror, or by hammering the international community and drowning them in false rhetoric trying to garner sympathy while blowing people up, just because they play on western guilt over colonialism and the slave trade. Israel is no apartheid state, no oppressor of people, it is the PA itself that grossly committs crimes against humanity and its own people and yet press focus and your attention is levied agianst Israel and you compare it to Ireland or South Africa?

    No the analogy is spot on. Let us not imagine or ratify a state that actually doesn't exist no matter how much the PA yells out that it does.
    Why do you keep ignoring the fact that there was no such thing as an independent state in Palestine before 1947?
    The problem is not about Israel being an apartheid state or the worst country in the History of mankind, which it is indeed not, the problem is acknowledging the fact that Israel is deciding on its own what to do this the whole territory of the former Palestine mandate.
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    I doubt you'll find many reasonable persons saying the neighbouring Arab countries were the nicest chaps in 1947.
    But noone can say the whole of the current Israel/Palestine territory legitimately belongs to the Jewish people, as some of it was indeed forcibly taken from civilian Arab population, disregarding which empire was ruling at the time.
    And this is what several people in this thread claim, and a big problem overall.
    As I said, I do believe the Palestinian people should get their own country. Everyone is entitled to live a free life.
    I do however, have a problem with the lies and propaganda, like the map that was posted on the first page. People need to get their facts checked.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    Your longer version keeps ignoring the actual underlying problem.
    This is their country only in your mind, and as long as you keep being deluded, innocent Israeli and Palestinian people will keep dying, and most of the world will keep hating on Israel.
    Neither millenia-old religious claims, nor military conquests make a country legitimate and worthy of recognition by the other countries.
    It does not. The this is their country is ignoring the very legtimate and legal founding of Israel and its very legal and just right to be where it is right now. This is what you are not seeing and you are ignoring. Like you agree with the PA's stance which you shouldn't. And if you read the entirety of my response, I do point out how ludicrous the situation is and misguided the PA are.

    Innocent people are dying because the PA puppet is committing violent acts of terror and instigating gross violence based on hate, they need to be routed out and brought to justice - they are killing people and blowing them up, stabbing, murdering - just because a crazed hater cries freedom doesn't make it true or legit, and because the Israel government responds with deadly force to stop the crazy doesn't make them in the wrong by the standards and values of the international community -which is what makes it hypocritical when Britain and France rise up and widely condemn Israel.

    When have you seen a headline recently that condemns the terrorists for blowing up people in Israel? Isn't that who we shoudl be condemning? It is - the fact that when Israel builds homes in its own land this condemned and yet when terrorists blow up people - you spout their propaganda and say "well they had it coming because they're occoupying their land" - it's weird and its insane dude.

    THese are not freedom fighters, they are not being oppressed, nor is anything being stolen from them, The leaders in the PA hate jews and don't want them around, so they reject living amongst them and choose to fight them - gaining the support of the jew hating islamic community of the nations around them, who also hate the west and who also fuel and sponsor their actions to the extent you think their is some inner righteous cause that is keeping them going. No.. it's hate and money from Jordan, Lebanon and the jew haters, and those in the west supporting are also jew haters because the evidence and history clearly shows the PA as being in the wrong here.

    Just because they fooled some of their own people by filling them with hate doesn't mean they have a just cause. This is not Ireland, this is not South Africa, this is not the Slave trade nor colonization either. The jews ancestral land is Israel, and they're back in it, legally and legitimately acquired. Stop being fooled by Jordanians posing as palestinians and jew haters amongst Israels residents that are at the heart of this farce. Just because they buy it, doens't mean you have to

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Slicer299 View Post
    All of that land, 100% of it, belongs to Israel. It was stolen from Israel over 2000 years ago. Israel didn't magically pop into existence in 1948 like anti semites like to claim. Palestine is the thief, Palestine is the murderer, Israel is the victim. The UN is a corrupt and illegitimate organization that needs to be abolished.
    This logic is so flawed, I fail to understand how can one be so ignorant.
    You do realise that the line has to be drawn somewhere? Claming that all of that territory belongs to Israel in the first place, because jews were living on it 2000 years ago is the same as claiming This territory should belong to Greece:

    Or even better, this should all be italian:

    And this is Russian:

    2000 years ago current israeli territory was basically an Italian colony. How do you figure that Israel now gets to keep it all and disregard any treaties of the last century? Even Italy has more rights to it. At least they had some sort of a formal government body on that area
    I personally am not pro Palestine or pro Israel. But blatant hypocrisy coming from some of the arguments in favour of one of the sides really gets me going. The thing I hate the most actually - hypocrisy and double standards. Yep, you can call me a communistic anarchist for all I care.
    Last edited by Gaaz; 2017-04-03 at 11:24 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    It does not. The this is their country is ignoring the very legtimate and legal founding of Israel and its very legal and just right to be where it is right now. This is what you are not seeing and you are ignoring. Like you agree with the PA's stance which you shouldn't. And if you read the entirety of my response, I do point out how ludicrous the situation is and misguided the PA are.

    Innocent people are dying because the PA puppet is committing violent acts of terror and instigating gross violence based on hate, they need to be routed out and brought to justice - they are killing people and blowing them up, stabbing, murdering - just because a crazed hater cries freedom doesn't make it true or legit, and because the Israel government responds with deadly force to stop the crazy doesn't make them in the wrong by the standards and values of the international community -which is what makes it hypocritical when Britain and France rise up and widely condemn Israel.

    When have you seen a headline recently that condemns the terrorists for blowing up people in Israel? Isn't that who we shoudl be condemning? It is - the fact that when Israel builds homes in its own land this condemned and yet when terrorists blow up people - you spout their propaganda and say "well they had it coming because they're occoupying their land" - it's weird and its insane dude.

    THese are not freedom fighters, they are not being oppressed, nor is anything being stolen from them, The leaders in the PA hate jews and don't want them around, so they reject living amongst them and choose to fight them - gaining the support of the jew hating islamic community of the nations around them, who also hate the west and who also fuel and sponsor their actions to the extent you think their is some inner righteous cause that is keeping them going. No.. it's hate and money from Jordan, Lebanon and the jew haters, and those in the west supporting are also jew haters because the evidence and history clearly shows the PA as being in the wrong here.

    Just because they fooled some of their own people by filling them with hate doesn't mean they have a just cause. This is not Ireland, this is not South Africa, this is not the Slave trade nor colonization either. The jews ancestral land is Israel, and they're back in it, legally and legitimately acquired. Stop being fooled by Jordanians posing as palestinians and jew haters amongst Israels residents that are at the heart of this farce. Just because they buy it, doens't mean you have to
    I definitely condemn the violence and the terrorists acts, and agree they should receive a much wider coverage from newspapers.
    This doesn't mean the whole of the country belongs to Israel.
    It is legitimate from Israel to try and erase violence and terrorism. It is not to build settlements in the area which is not rightfully theirs.
    I don't care at all about the PA, I read books and analyse the current situation, and my conclusion is that the current territory of the former Palestine mandate is not in its entirety legally Israel territory.

    Ignoring this excess of sovereignty does not help solving the main problem, which is to stop violence.
    And as long as Israel will not meet wider recognition, many countries will not be willing to condemn the violence.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    Why do you keep ignoring the fact that there was no such thing as an independent state in Palestine before 1947?
    The problem is not about Israel being an apartheid state or the worst country in the History of mankind, which it is indeed not, the problem is acknowledging the fact that Israel is deciding on its own what to do this the whole territory of the former Palestine mandate.
    not ignoring anything. Fact is a legtimate and lawful state of Israel was formed and does exist, it is the sovereign power their and has every right and is justified in being there. Terrorists who don't like it and don't want it , who hate jews doesn't change this.

    It is Israel's right to decide what to do in its own territory, and make no mistake, it is Israel's territory, and this has only been drawn out because Israel has been most humane about this. Most other countries would have shot this down long time ago, but that is not Israel's way, the softer diplomatic approach and respecting of different beliefs and rights has largely stayed Israel's hand and the PA is using this to as if to say it has any shred of legitimacy , which it does not.

    Yet it is Israel that has been open to 2-state solution and the PA rejecting it because the goal is not to live peaceably or free - that's just a lie, the goal is to get rid of the jew - an islamic mandate and an anti-semites dream. This is no rational conflict, stop trying to rationlize it, logic, the law, sense of rightness is all on Israel's side, and they have been more than reasonable in this affair.

    They should continue to build and continue to assert their right to do so, they are not violent, and so don't force the PA violently out, their violence has always been reactionary - to violence committed against them - and make no mistake the PA is being propped up and sponsored mostly by Jordan and the arab league - and the aim is the eradication of Jews, this conflict is hate based not logic based, and its coming from the haters and enemies of Israel, not the just and sense of rightness.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    not ignoring anything. Fact is a legtimate and lawful state of Israel was formed and does exist, it is the sovereign power their and has every right and is justified in being there. Terrorists who don't like it and don't want it , who hate jews doesn't change this.

    It is Israel's right to decide what to do in its own territory, and make no mistake, it is Israel's territory, and this has only been drawn out because Israel has been most humane about this. Most other countries would have shot this down long time ago, but that is not Israel's way, the softer diplomatic approach and respecting of different beliefs and rights has largely stayed Israel's hand and the PA is using this to as if to say it has any shred of legitimacy , which it does not.

    Yet it is Israel that has been open to 2-state solution and the PA rejecting it because the goal is not to live peaceably or free - that's just a lie, the goal is to get rid of the jew - an islamic mandate and an anti-semites dream. This is no rational conflict, stop trying to rationlize it, logic, the law, sense of rightness is all on Israel's side, and they have been more than reasonable in this affair.

    They should continue to build and continue to assert their right to do so, they are not violent, and so don't force the PA violently out, their violence has always been reactionary - to violence committed against them - and make no mistake the PA is being propped up and sponsored mostly by Jordan and the arab league - and the aim is the eradication of Jews, this conflict is hate based not logic based, and its coming from the haters and enemies of Israel, not the just and sense of rightness.
    My god you're lost.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Natylyaz View Post
    I definitely condemn the violence and the terrorists acts, and agree they should receive a much wider coverage from newspapers.
    This doesn't mean the whole of the country belongs to Israel.
    It is legitimate from Israel to try and erase violence and terrorism. It is not to build settlements in the area which is not rightfully theirs.
    I don't care at all about the PA, I read books and analyse the current situation, and my conclusion is that the current territory of the former Palestine mandate is not in its entirety legally Israel territory.

    Ignoring this excess of sovereignty does not help solving the main problem, which is to stop violence.
    And as long as Israel will not meet wider recognition, many countries will not be willing to condemn the violence.
    As I also condemn violence and condone reasonable action taken to prevent or avoid it.

    as i stated earlier, you don't stop living because people hate you and will commit violent acts to you if you continue. this is what the terrorist does. Israel shouldn't stop building new homes in its own nation because the PA claims it is the palestinians instead and would continue committing terror until Israel and every jew ceases to exist.

    You continue building, it is their soveriegn territory and they have won and acquired full rights to it. If the Jordaians don't like it, then tough, it is they that have stirred up the trouble in the first place and they that continue to reject all reasonable offers of clemency. Not Israel, i think it would be foolish and wrong of Israel to stop functioning or stop building homes it needs because a bully or a hater doesn't like it.

    No matter which way you cut it, whether historically, ancestrally, legally, acquisition - The jewish state is legitimately and legally where it is and it must maintain its sovereignty no matter what method its enemies you whether all out invasion, terror or propaganda to the outside community.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Fact is a legtimate and lawful state of Israel was formed and does exist, it is the sovereign power their and has every right and is justified in being there.
    You really have to enlighten me on your justification for the words legitimate and lawful here.
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