UK, France, Germany condemn Israeli approval of new illegal settlement

[ravenmoon]

My god you're lost.

it might seem so if you take the discussion out of context, you need to read my original response at the top of the page to get my context and then follow through.

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You really have to enlighten me on your justification for the words legitimate and lawful here.

The state of Israel is not illegal, nor is it illegitmate Natylyaz.

Don't follow the haters, afterall, many of them, including Hitler believe the jew has no right to exist in the first place. Just because they think so, and don't recognize Israel or the jew doesn't make it so.

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This logic is so flawed, I fail to understand how can one be so ignorant.
You do realise that the line has to be drawn somewhere? Claming that all of that territory belongs to Israel in the first place, because jews were living on it 2000 years ago is the same as claiming This territory should belong to Greece:
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-med...4-B050D47D.jpg
Or even better, this should all be italian:
http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images...g?v=1485680721
And this is Russian:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1zmuu3R1RoM/maxresdefault.jpg
2000 years ago current israeli territory was basically an Italian colony. How do you figure that Israel now gets to keep it all and disregard any treaties of the last century? Even Italy has more rights to it. At least they had some sort of a formal government body on that area
I personally am not pro Palestine or pro Israel. But blatant hypocrisy coming from some of the arguments in favour of one of the sides really gets me going. The thing I hate the most actually - hypocrisy and double standards. Yep, you can call me a communistic anarchist for all I care.

Then every single country in existence has serious legitimacy issues, and of all the current nations, Israel of today was one of the most legally and peacefully formed nation.

It goes to show you that boiling down to it, all these land wars are meaningless - it's largely one group or one person wanting to control or run what someone else has at the time. This current so called conflict is Jordan with arab backing, supporting a group of jew haters wanting this land rid of jews. You can't go back and change what has happened in all the current nations and use that as a basis to justify war on their existence. But they are obviously trying, when open conflict failed in the 6-day war.

As they are right now you can only respond to the current conflicts and what they are based on. The PAs actions are not based on law or fact or justice, they are based on hatred as you well know. As it stands Israel is legitimate and legal and it is being attacked by terror groups of jew haters, we all know this. THe PA is not some liberation army, they're terrorists, those who now identify themselves as so called palestinians (most are Jordanians) are not ill treated, oppressed or treated as second class citizens, brutalized by an evil racist regime - none of that, they are welcomed and treated as full members of israeli nation. The haters amongst them just reject being anywhere near or part of anything that a jew is part of, not because of some ancestral legitimacy or right or anything like that...no fellow, just out of hate for the jew.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[Deleted]

There are two kinds of people in this world: jews and antisemites. At least according to the Israeli government.

[Natylyaz]

it might seem so if you take the discussion out of context, you need to read my original response at the top of the page to get my context and then follow through.

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The state of Israel is not illegal, nor is it illegitmate Natylyaz.

Don't follow the haters, afterall, many of them, including Hitler believe the jew has no right to exist in the first place. Just because they think so, and don't recognize Israel or the jew doesn't make it so.

We need a middle-ground here, you can't bring Hitler in the conversation and think I agree with him, that's not the best way to make friends.
I do think the current Jews are perfectly allowed to live in Israel, but I disagree that the whole country is theirs.

Historically, there have been so many population movements that it's irrelevant, otherwise we would have to redraw the current boundaries of all the countries on the planet to have them follow the pre-Roman times, or pre-Persian times, or pre-Assyrian times, which is nonsense.

The only thing that truly matters, is the civilian population. In 1947, there were many Arabs in the region, as well as many Jews, each under foreign domination. So it made sense that each population got to live in a country they are sovereign in.
Alas, they didn't get along well enough, so an international agreement was concluded to divide the territory in two separate countries, but it did not go well either in part because the neighbouring Arab countries and some Palestinians were opposed to the idea.

Therefore:
Legitimately, Israel is right to claim a sovereign country in the former Palestine mandate, but not on the whole of it.
Lawfully, Israel was recognised a country internationally in the former Palestine mandate, but not on the whole of it.

So the middle-ground everybody needs to achieve, is a stop to violence, and a recognition of each country's (Israel and Palestine) sovereignty, which neither side has done so far.

[Deleted]

it might seem so if you take the discussion out of context, you need to read my original response at the top of the page to get my context and then follow through.

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The state of Israel is not illegal, nor is it illegitmate Natylyaz.

Don't follow the haters, afterall, many of them, including Hitler believe the jew has no right to exist in the first place. Just because they think so, and don't recognize Israel or the jew doesn't make it so.

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Then every single country in existence has serious legitimacy issues, and of all the current nations, Israel of today was one of the most legally and peacefully formed nation.

It goes to show you that boiling down to it, all these land wars are meaningless - it's largely one group or one person wanting to control or run what someone else has at the time. You can't go back and change what has happened in all the current nations and use that as a basis to justify war on their existence.

As they are right now you can only respond to the current conflicts and what they are based on. The PAs actions are not based on law or fact or justice, they are based on hatred as you well know. As it stands Israel is legitimate and legal and it is being attacked by terror groups of jew haters, we all know this. THe PA is not some liberation army, they're terrorists, those who now identify themselves as so called palestinians (most are Jordanians) are not ill treated, oppressed or treated as second class citizens, brutalized by an evil racist regime - none of that, they are welcomed and treated as full members of israeli nation. The haters amongst them just reject being anywhere near or part of anything that a jew is part of, not because of some ancestral legitimacy or right or anything like that...no fellow, just out of hate for the jew.

Nothing more, nothing less.

By all means I meant no offence.
I simply noticed there is very little reasoning being done. You're arguing from an emotional standpoint. Again I don't mean to offend you with that. It's clear that this topic is very personal to you.

[fanjodaman]

A handy video that serves as a reminder of just how full of it that Palestinians and the UN are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76NytvQAIs0

[ravenmoon]

By all means I meant no offence.
I simply noticed there is very little reasoning being done. You're arguing from an emotional standpoint. Again I don't mean to offend you with that. It's clear that this topic is very personal to you.

My dear fellow, I am not offended, nor angry, just deeply saddened. People killing and hating each other, and worse calling God into the picture, supposedly in his name.

So much hatred, at the heart of warped perspectives that promote wrong as right, to do nothing more than fuel hatred and more violence. It's sad, and I am all to aware that the rational, logical and reasonable arguments that shoot down many of the lies make no difference to the haters who will continue to pereptuate their violence, because it was not based on logic in the first place.

Yet, I can't help but point it out when I see others being drawn into the conflict and losing clarity or doing due diligence so they can take the right stance against hate and not be the ones found in support of it.

As a person who values human life as sacred, rare and most precious, it is distressing and very sad to see people try to justify their hate and feel good about their killing and robbing of precious life.

And it is not with pleasure either when others have to take the lives of these to prevent them from taking more innocent lives - though I understand it as necessary in such circumstances - it is not something I would have desired or wished for. Yet even I will not stand by and watch a rapist or murderer claim a victim without doing anything if it is in my power to do so, even if it means by force. It is not no force at any cost, sometimes perpatrators necessitate forceful action against them to protect others, sometimes even lethal when there is no other way to stop them.

[Deleted]

My dear fellow, I am not offended, nor angry, just deeply saddened. People killing and hating each other, and worse calling God into the picture, supposedly in his name.

So much hatred, at the heart of warped perspectives that promote wrong as right, to do nothing more than fuel hatred and more violence. It's sad, and I am all to aware that the rational, logical and reasonable arguments that shoot down many of the lies make no difference to the haters who will continue to pereptuate their violence, because it was not based on logic in the first place.

Yet, I can't help but point it out when I see others being drawn into the conflict and losing clarity or doing due diligence so they can take the right stance against hate and not be the ones found in support of it

You do know that what you're saying is only going to make the situation worst yes?
I mean unless you exterminate all Palestinians, a 2 state solution is the only amswer.

[ravenmoon]

You do know that what you're saying is only going to make the situation worst yes?
I mean unless you exterminate all Palestinians, a 2 state solution is the only amswer.

no, firstly hell no, Exterminate an entire people? not if it can be helped. And it's not all palestinians causing and stirring this up, select people amongst them full of hate and fuelled by arab money supporting the cause to exterminate the jew...

and the reason 2 state solution isn't working is because the PA keeps rejecting any reasonable choice. And while Israel will not attack the palestinians, they won't give up and let themselves be killed because the PA won't back down. IF the PA or terrorist group comes with force and arms, then Israel would take down those firing bullets, missiles etc at them. If that is how every member of the PA leaders decides to do, then they will meet that fate.

it is the PA that wants to exterminate all jews, it is not Israel that wants to exterminate all Palestinians, so you will not see a situation that Israel would go out and do that. And lets not forget the Arab league tried this via open war in the 60s, and they lost. This current viscious drive is just another way to achieve what the war failed to do.

[Deleted]

no, firstly hell no, Exterminate an entire people? not if it can be helped. And it's not all palestinians causing and stirring this up, select people amongst them full of hate and fuelled by arab money supporting the cause to exterminate the jew...

and the reason 2 state solution isn't working is because the PA keeps rejecting any reasonable choice. And while Israel will not attack the palestinians, they won't give up and let themselves be killed because the PA won't back down. IF the PA or terrorist group comes with force and arms, then Israel would take down those firing bullets, missiles etc at them. If that is how every member of the PA leaders decides to do, then they will meet that fate.

it is the PA that wants to exterminate all jews, it is not Israel that wants to exterminate all Palestinians, so you will not see a situation that Israel would go out and do that. And lets not forget the Arab league tried this via open war in the 60s, and they lost. This current viscious drive is just another way to achieve what the war failed to do.

Not sure how you can look at the peace process and state it's the PA that keeps rejecting it.
I honestly can't see how you're able to make that claim.

[Deleted]

Sanctions from who? Israel owns the United States politically. Presidential candidates have to make special speeches for the lobby of a foreign nation. With Trump's new "America first" budget, only Israel was exempt from recieving less funds.

Israel doesn't give a damn about the UN, who were the ones to recognize them as a nation.

Israel is motivated by religion, that they are "God's chosen people" and that it is their land by right. They're not going to stop, and no one is going to stop them. If anyone criticises Israel you are labeled anti-semite and any UN stuff is vetoed by the U.S.

Welcome to reality. Israel is run by religious extremists.

This.

And its not racism when people discuss this subject its legitimate concerns.

To be specific the Zionists (Jewish extremists) believe that god will appear to them once they restore the original land of Israel... and you cant negotiate with religious extremists as we all know too well.

[Deleted]

Fascists are gonna fascist, what can you do?

[Noradin]

They were promised this land by god, it says in some book they've made i guess.

If my memory doesn't sleep with someone else - they originated from Mesopotamia, moved to Egypt, weren't welcomed there, then they moved to Palestine (infamous "move south for 40 years" "go nomad for 40 years"), started ransacking Canaan settlements but eventually they managed to grab some land and settle for a bit.
Then they to dodge the hit from various "cultures" that came from sea to pillage and plunder.
Then they managed to create an actual government with king Saul in charge.
Then they got in fight with neighboring governments (Assyria, Egypt, Rome) and got scattered around the world
Timeskip
Hitler, WW2, holocaust, i guess you know what happened after that

Most of these are myths at best, at least anything pertaining to my question.

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100% of UK/France/Spain/Portugal/Belgium/Switzerland belong to the Celts.

Why the Celts? Do you think they were the first humans ever getting there?
Do you think they died out? What about their potential decendants who might also be decended from Germanic people?

[Natylyaz]

Most of these are myths at best, at least anything pertaining to my question.

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Why the Celts? Do you think they were the first humans ever getting there?
Do you think they died out? What about their potential decendants who might also be decended from Germanic people?

That was rhetorical to point out we can't draw an arbitrary line in time and decide this is the legitimacy line.
The Celts were indeed indigenous from Austria or even further east and expanded to Ireland and even Turkey, but that's the first identifiable group of people for which we have reliable proof in Western Europe.

My main point is that you can't say Israel is legitimate in Palestine because there were some Jews in the area 2.000 years ago.
I feel they are legitimate to claim a country in the area because a civilian Israelite population has been living there in the past 200 years, but so has a civilian Arab population.
Which is why I favour two states.

[ravenmoon]

That was rhetorical to point out we can't draw an arbitrary line in time and decide this is the legitimacy line.
The Celts were indeed indigenous from Austria or even further east and expanded to Ireland and even Turkey, but that's the first identifiable group of people for which we have reliable proof in Western Europe.

My main point is that you can't say Israel is legitimate in Palestine because there were some Jews in the area 2.000 years ago.
I feel they are legitimate to claim a country in the area because a civilian Israelite population has been living there for a long time in the past centuries, but so has an Arab population.
Which is why I favour two states.

you can't arbtrarily favor 2 states because some terrorist groups stirring up people to hate and fight want it that way. Arabs and Jews live in peace in the state of ISrael that is legitimate and legal currently, there don't need to have 2 states in order for that to happen. To then advocate a 2 state solution because the PA will inflict more violence if you don't because they hate all jews and want them eradicate is not the solution for sure.

@TJrogue it is the PA that keeps rejecting a reasonable 2-state solution, fyi, they aren't hiding this - they want Israel gone. this is not about legitimacy, or harmony or anything like that the entire reason this conflict exists is not for peace or co-existence or living right , it's because hardcore islamists and members of the PA backed by Jordan, Lebanon incl Hezbollah and surrounding islamic nations hate the jews and want them eradicated.

There is no need or right or legality in a second state, never has been, and as i mentioned in my first post here, that though a people have every right to demand to want to be separate, the government is under no obligation to grant it. However usually, if it is a union like Britain and democratically a member state wants to break away, they can elect to do so we have a process here. Over there, no such thing is happening, because this is not about land or territory its about genocide and hate. Furthermore these aren't people wanting to part because of irreconcilable differences therefore give my own state - these are people that want to destroy a sovereign nation and are proxies to powerful neighbours that are riling them up and backing them up in this. They don't wan t peaceful co-existence - have you learnt nothing about islamic terrorism or the jihadist or the radical? have you learnt nothing about how these people have been conditioned to think in hatred they stoke into insanity? have you never understood anti-semitism exists and doens't exist because of a rational reason and those that feel justified in killing a jew do so only because he is a jew and nothing else like those who enslaved blacks or hunted down gays.

Every excuse out of the woodwork is used, they stole our land and woudln't give it back appeals to the irish, they are arpatheid appeals to the african community, they are colonists appeals to leftist liberal and commonwealth nations, every time some other reason comes up, you give them concessions try to strike a deal it makes no difference, it's all about annihilating the jew..this is what the years of pushing the stupid 2-state solution showed when it failed ultimately in 2012. You can't force something that was a farce in the first place and clearly shown to be, you can't force it back onto the table because theoretically or ideologically it seems like a good thing and noble pursuit. You're failing to recognise or acknowledge the underlying issues of hatred, islamic prejudice and millennia old jewish hate which you should not be blind to and should recognize and consider Israel fairly rather than under the warped rhetoric and baseless lies that are appealing on emotion without any true substantiation or just cause.

And I watch on with horror how people who consider themselves insightful or intelligent are lapping up the b/s either in prejudice themselves against jews as this is not uncommon in the west or in ignorance - thinking that the PAs propaganda about stolen land, arpatheid regime, oppression of palestinian people holds any merit whatsoever. It does not, it never has.

What they failed to do by the 6-day war, the neighbours of Israel are trying to do through sedition, propaganda, terrorism - are trying control the rhetoric and distort the truth, but you should be able to see it quite clearly for what it is if you would only come off your high liberation horse, and look at the situation truly. It's not hard to see. Sure a bully has a reason for attacking the kid as well, he's a bully and he hates, not because "oh his mum didn't hug him in the morning, and his dad's job couldn't pay him enough to buy him food. And therefore he is unhappy which is why he keeps picking this fight." We don't punish the other kid for standing up to him and beating him back, neither do we fuel his insanity by legitimizing it. Those reasons may have contributed to why he does what he does, but it doesn't make what he does any less than what it is.

[Natylyaz]

you can't arbtrarily favor 2 states because some terrorist groups stirring up people to hate and fight want it that way. Arabs and Jews live in peace in the state of ISrael that is legitimate and legal currently, there don't need to have 2 states in order for that to happen. To then advocate a 2 state solution because the PA will inflict more violence if you don't because they hate all jews and want them eradicate is not the solution for sure.

@TJrogue it is the PA that keeps rejecting a reasonable 2-state solution, fyi, they aren't hiding this - they want Israel gone. this is not about legitimacy, or harmony or anything like that the entire reason this conflict exists is not for peace or co-existence or living right , it's because hardcore islamists and members of the PA backed by Jordan, Lebanon incl Hezbollah and surrounding islamic nations hate the jews and want them eradicated.

There is no need or right or legality in a second state, never has been, and as i mentioned in my first post here, that though a people have every right to demand to want to be separate, the government is under no obligation to grant it. However usually, if it is a union like Britain and democratically a member state wants to break away, they can elect to do so we have a process here. Over there, no such thing is happening, because this is not about land or territory its about genocide and hate. Furthermore these aren't people wanting to part because of irreconcilable differences therefore give my own state - these are people that want to destroy a sovereign nation and are proxies to powerful neighbours that are riling them up and backing them up in this. They don't wan t peaceful co-existence - have you learnt nothing about islamic terrorism or the jihadist or the radical? have you learnt nothing about how these people have been conditioned to think in hatred they stoke into insanity? have you never understood anti-semitism exists and doens't exist because of a rational reason and those that feel justified in killing a jew do so only because he is a jew and nothing else like those who enslaved blacks or hunted down gays.

Every excuse out of the woodwork is used, they stole our land and woudln't give it back appeals to the irish, they are arpatheid appeals to the african community, they are colonists appeals to leftist liberal and commonwealth nations, every time some other reason comes up, you give them concessions try to strike a deal it makes no difference, it's all about annihilating the jew..this is what the years of pushing the stupid 2-state solution showed when it failed ultimately in 2012. You can't force something that was a farce in the first place and clearly shown to be, you can't force it back onto the table because theoretically or ideologically it seems like a good thing and noble pursuit. You're failing to recognise or acknowledge the underlying issues of hatred, islamic prejudice and millennia old jewish hate which you should not be blind to and should recognize and consider Israel fairly rather than under the warped rhetoric and baseless lies that are appealing on emotion without any true substantiation or just cause.

And I watch on with horror how people who consider themselves insightful or intelligent are lapping up the b/s either in prejudice themselves against jews as this is not uncommon in the west or in ignorance - thinking that the PAs propaganda about stolen land, arpatheid regime, oppression of palestinian people holds any merit whatsoever. It does not, it never has.

What they failed to do by the 6-day war, the neighbours of Israel are trying to do through sedition, propaganda, terrorism - are trying control the rhetoric and distort the truth, but you should be able to see it quite clearly for what it is if you would only come off your high liberation horse, and look at the situation truly. It's not hard to see. Sure a bully has a reason for attacking the kid as well, he's a bully and he hates, not because "oh his mum didn't hug him in the morning, and his dad's job couldn't pay him enough to buy him food. And therefore he is unhappy which is why he keeps picking this fight." We don't punish the other kid for standing up to him and beating him back, neither do we fuel his insanity by legitimizing it. Those reasons may have contributed to why he does what he does, but it doesn't make what he does any less than what it is.

You keep repeating the same thing.
I understand and acknowledge many people hate the Jews.
I understand and acknowledge some Palestinians want Israel not to exist.
I understand and acknowledge some Palestinians are very violent and want all Jews to die.
And I condemn all of the above.

But you can't keep saying there is one legitimate state which has existed for ages and which is legal without further explanation.
I have discussed this point in several of my posts already, before 1947, there was no independent country.
Then the international community agreed there would be two countries.
So we moved from 0 country => 2 countries.
The current situation is de facto 1 country, but that has never legally been the case through an agreed process.
The only acceptable decision which has been taken by the International Community (albeit rejected by some countries) is a partition of the previous mandate of Palestine between two countries.

If you keep repeating the 2-countries solution is a result of my lunacy or the violent agenda of the Palestinian Authority (whereas it was a decision of the United Nations), I'm afraid there's not much left to discuss and I feel really sorry for both the Israelite and Palestinian people, as it is not about to get better anytime soon.

[Deleted]

And I watch on with horror how people who consider themselves insightful or intelligent are lapping up the b/s either in prejudice themselves against jews as this is not uncommon in the west or in ignorance - thinking that the PAs propaganda about stolen land, arpatheid regime, oppression of palestinian people holds any merit whatsoever. It does not, it never has.

BULLSHIT

Its two totally different discussions.

Discussing Israel land grabbing against international law is one subject that has FUKK ALL to do with anti-semitism.

[Independent voter]

LOL good luck with that. Israel could destroy the US economy from the inside if they felt the need arises.

Wut? 10characters

[Majestic12]

Calling you out on your bullshit is "can't handle the truth" now? you're either completely (A)misinformed on majority of the shit you type or simply (B)outright lying, if i had to guess which one i would pick answer i would pick answer (C) a good mix of both.

Is that what you want to tell your grand kids? that being dumb as a brick and lying to make your case is a good thing? you should re evaluate things if that is the case.

Except, I didn't lie and I have only spoken truth in the thread. We won't get anywhere, you've already started throwing insults. That means you lost, by the way. You don't have anything else and you're upset by the fact that I have you all figured out.

I've basically exposed the biggest Israeli supporters on the forum as being clueless/brainwashed and it only took one reply to do it. What'd I expect anyway, they don't even teach the truth about the six day war in their schools.

Torto really thought he could get away with it that easily. Now look at him.

Feel free to talk to yourself while I go do better things. See you in the next Israel thread.(Hint, there will be many since we all know Israel doesn't want peace).

[Mavett]

Except, I didn't lie and I have only spoken truth in the thread. We won't get anywhere, you've already started throwing insults. That means you lost, by the way. You don't have anything else and you're upset by the fact that I have you all figured out.

I've basically exposed the biggest Israeli supporters on the forum as being clueless/brainwashed and it only took one reply to do it. What'd I expect anyway, they don't even teach the truth about the six day war in their schools.

Torto really thought he could get away with it that easily. Now look at him.

Feel free to talk to yourself while I go do better things. See you in the next Israel thread.(Hint, there will be many since we all know Israel doesn't want peace).

"Feel free to talk to yourself while I go do better things" looks like Majesticliar12 have finally brought out the ladder to step down from his clusterfuck of cluelesness and lies.

Let yourself out now.

[Deleted]

Seem? No seem about it.

UN Human Rights Council: From its creation in June 2006 through June 2016, the UN Human Rights Council over one decade adopted 135 resolutions criticizing countries; 68 out of those 135 resolutions have been against Israel (more than 50%).

UN Nations General Assembly: From 2012 through 2015, the United Nations General Assembly has adopted 97 resolutions criticizing countries; 83 out of those 97 have been against Israel (86%).

UNESCO: Each year, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) adopts around 10 resolutions a year criticizing only Israel. UNESCO not criticize any other UN member state in a country-specific resolution (100%). An exception occurred in 2013, when, under pressure from UN Watch, UNESCO adopted one resolution on Syria.


Boris Johnson, the UK Foreign Secretary, made a comment about it recently, saying "Justice is blind and impartial. This selective focus on Israel is neither."

It is perfectly fine to criticise Israel when they do something bad, but that needs to be applied with an even hand to every country.

Yeah, a lot of nazis there...