Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Crookids]

My mistake. I've been laboring under the impression that I was playing a mmoRPG, where choice and customization of playstyle were options. Why even have talents? I didn't realize my rogue that I've played for years, inextricably had to be a pirate now.

What if they rename SnD to "YARR" and have it make your toon shout "AVAST ME HEARTIES" while swinging on a rope from the mast of an invisible pirate ship with a dagger clenched in his teeth? Would that be the right "flavor"?

Blizz hire me, plz.

Lol. I have to agree here.

Personally, they should have made Outlaw a ranged spec period. The game needs more ranged anyway, but instead they give Hunters a melee spec. Trying to make this spec feel "different" is causing too many issues.

[Deleted]

Unrelated to the eventual 7.2.5 change. Simming my char with AskMrRobot, it seem mastery is now behind versatily and critical score is the new "way to go". http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...87f56159c75783

I know it's a SnD build with leg bracer (RtB give me too much inconsistent dps since it's harder for me to play it correctly while learning NH fights). But RtB and SnD were close in term of stats value previously within AskMrRobot sim.

[Don the Insane]

Lol. I have to agree here.

Personally, they should have made Outlaw a ranged spec period. The game needs more ranged anyway, but instead they give Hunters a melee spec. Trying to make this spec feel "different" is causing too many issues.

I wouldn't mind a ranged rogue spec, but only if they ever bring all the other classes up to druid's level with 4 specs. Outlaw as a ranged spec kills the only "agile swordfighter" spec. Which is all the class fantasy ever needed to be, IMO - "agile swordfighter".

[Redecle]

SND shouldn't be in the game. RTB is THE core flavor mechanic of outlaw. The fact that they let people opt out of it is stupid.

I see the internet chose you as their king and gave you the permission to choose what they like for them.

If you're not using SnD, why does it bother you that it exists?
Are the people using SnD hindering your progress?
What is stupid about having more choice and customization?

Specially when something has been in the game since the beginning and RtB has been in for 6 months and has been causing more trouble to balance and adjust right than SnD did over 10 years. SnD ain't even the reason they are constantly adjusting RtB and how the rolls and buffs work, RtB is the reason they are doing that. The last blue posts just show they're trying to figure out a way to make SnD viable cause RtB needs to be changed constantly on it's own. They can't get anything else balanced since they can't balance the one thing at the "core".


Hmm let's see.. Let's try to summon something..
Oh.. Oh yeah.. It's almost here.

RtB is the core flavor of cow's dung.
It deserves to die in the bottom of the seven hells, where it belongs.

See I can spew out all kind of dumb things too. Whoa, for a moment there I didn't think that was possible.


Core flavor, buahaha.. When the thing hasn't even been in the game for a year.
I heard salt is the new core flavor of coca cola instead of sugar cause it'll be included in the next patch.
..Oh no, when starting to say dumb things, it's impossible to stop.

[elfporn]

Unrelated to the eventual 7.2.5 change. Simming my char with AskMrRobot, it seem mastery is now behind versatily and critical score is the new "way to go". http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...87f56159c75783

I know it's a SnD build with leg bracer (RtB give me too much inconsistent dps since it's harder for me to play it correctly while learning NH fights). But RtB and SnD were close in term of stats value previously within AskMrRobot sim.

Please take a moment to search for Swol's thread on the subject of simming Outlaw. Outlaw stat priorities and goals vary to an immense degree based on a number of factors.

In the future this may change somewhat, in the meantime his results are still worthwhile.



On the other topic at hand:

Removal of SnD would create room for another talent. A much better result than keeping it or making it baseline, no matter what talent it could turn out to be.

Splitting TB into restless blades is an excellent idea as well - RTB buffed baseline effects across the board(except CD redux), where previously there was no inherent CD reduction without TB, now there will be.

It will make balancing RtB easier overall, when they can buff/nerf the Cd redux outside(or inside) of Rtb.

- - - Updated - - -

I see the internet chose you as their king and gave you the permission to choose what they like for them.

If you're not using SnD, why does it bother you that it exists?
Are the people using SnD hindering your progress?
What is stupid about having more choice and customization?

Specially when something has been in the game since the beginning and RtB has been in for 6 months and has been causing more trouble to balance and adjust right than SnD did over 10 years. SnD ain't even the reason they are constantly adjusting RtB and how the rolls and buffs work, RtB is the reason they are doing that. The last blue posts just show they're trying to figure out a way to make SnD viable cause RtB needs to be changed constantly on it's own. They can't get anything else balanced since they can't balance the one thing at the "core".


Hmm let's see.. Let's try to summon something..
Oh.. Oh yeah.. It's almost here.

RtB is the core flavor of cow's dung.
It deserves to die in the bottom of the seven hells, where it belongs.

See I can spew out all kind of dumb things too. Whoa, for a moment there I didn't think that was possible.

Just because something has been in the game for 12 years doesn't mean it's not a bad mechanic. SnD was always simple and was only ever added to create complexity in the rotation in the form of maintenance buffs. They've moved from the simple maintenance buff, to a complex one that affects the rotation outside of merely maintaining the buff.

If you don't like that, then...so what? The game moves forward and you don't.

[Redecle]

Please take a moment to search for Swol's thread on the subject of simming Outlaw. Outlaw stat priorities and goals vary to an immense degree based on a number of factors.

In the future this may change somewhat, in the meantime his results are still worthwhile.



On the other topic at hand:

Removal of SnD would create room for another talent. A much better result than keeping it or making it baseline, no matter what talent it could turn out to be.

Splitting TB into restless blades is an excellent idea as well - RTB buffed baseline effects across the board(except CD redux), where previously there was no inherent CD reduction without TB, now there will be.

It will make balancing RtB easier overall, when they can buff/nerf the Cd redux outside(or inside) of Rtb.

- - - Updated - - -

Just because something has been in the game for 12 years doesn't mean it's not a bad mechanic. SnD was always simple and was only ever added to create complexity in the rotation in the form of maintenance buffs. They've moved from the simple maintenance buff, to a complex one that affects the rotation outside of merely maintaining the buff.

If you don't like that, then...so what? The game moves forward and you don't.

And simple is bad why?
It's been simple for 12 years and we've liked it, not everyone again of course cause that would be madness, but there's RtB now for you to choose a more complex route. You take your complex route and i'll take my simple route. Easy enough.
Seems so or not.. "Cause if i'm taking a complex route and doing astro physics while i raid, so must everyone else too. Can't have it too easy for someone, there must always be a challenge in everything."

To me simple seems easy to balance cause there's less moving parts, rather than a complex one that needs constant adjusting.
And balance and viability is something most people want. Well everyone wants to be overpowered, but they'll be satisfied with being balanced and viable.

Removal of SnD would create room for another talent, like another DfA that no one uses cause MfD has too good synergy with RtB.
MfD is so good in that row that either of the choices can't compete with it.
Only reason SnD is picked by some people is that they literally hate RtB or they want to play combat rogue instead of outlaw, much like myself.

I don't like it, yep that's true and i'm not going forward, true also.
But why does that bother someone or as I just wrote about the level 100 talent row, why SnD there bothers someone when the only choice there is MfD anyway.
You might aswell remove DfA for something useful, not that i care if it is removed or not, since nobody is picking it because of MfD and if they are it's very highly situational. But actually i remember that some pvp players think quite highly of DfA, pretty sure they wouldn't want it removed.
So here we are.. in a talent row where each talent is used for different audience and purposes. Seems pretty solid row.
People running with RtB pick MfD cause it's the obvious choice and are happy as long as the rerolling is solved or it's not even the rerolling they just want 2 buffs up minimum. And old geezers can live onwards in their "simple" rotation life.

[Xanatu]

The game has changed. Brainless SND-style maintenance buffs are all but gone, as they should be. It's not even a "buff" because the first thing you do entering combat is activate it, then a little weakaura will flash every 30 seconds reminding you to activate it again. You've never experienced a "buff" from SND because you've never done a fight without it. It's a box to check, once, every 30 seconds. RTB has flavor. Everyone who supports SND goes back to the "it's been around for 10 years!" argument, as if that makes it good. Combat is gone. SND should go with it.

[shaunika123]

Core flavor, buahaha.. When the thing hasn't even been in the game for a year.

been in the game for the exact same time as the spec

he's not wrong about it being the core flavour

[Deleted]

It will make balancing RtB easier overall, when they can buff/nerf the Cd redux outside(or inside) of Rtb.

I don't agree with that.

Bring just more complexity in the RtB schema...
If they had proven that they could manage that by the past, I would agree: more parameters should conclude to better tunning.
But with RtB, the past doesn't make me feel confident in future tunning specially if more complex.

[Redecle]

The game has changed. Brainless SND-style maintenance buffs are all but gone, as they should be. It's not even a "buff" because the first thing you do entering combat is activate it, then a little weakaura will flash every 30 seconds reminding you to activate it again. You've never experienced a "buff" from SND because you've never done a fight without it. It's a box to check, once, every 30 seconds. RTB has flavor. Everyone who supports SND goes back to the "it's been around for 10 years!" argument, as if that makes it good. Combat is gone. SND should go with it.

Game has changed how, cause all i see regarding most things is that the game is too easy which would be the siding with the brainless?

If you want complex shit and rotations in the game that's fine, i get it. You can have them, but i don't want that.
You have yours now with RtB. So why can't i have my simple way on the side, since it's possible via the _choice_ of talents?
I'm even okay with RtB + MfD doing more damage output than having just SnD, cause i don't really care about that stuff.
How is that something away from you, when you don't have to pick SnD? You take your MfD and roll with it.

Combat is gone, except it's not. The spec is exactly the same in any other aspect outside of RtB and Pistol Shot.
Sure RtB is the new "core" of the baseline, but even that is not that different from combat, you get a maintenance style buff just like every single other maintenance buff in the game except you can rng it to better via rerolling or "refreshing".
And as you said SnD is not a buff when it's the first thing you do in combat, how is RtB different? It's the first bloody thing you do in combat and it grants you a stat increase just like SnD, instead of 1 maintenance buff you can now get 6 or 1 of them or two of them.
Although it's not as simple cause heck you might have to reroll and juggle around with itinstead of starting your other rotation.
Only thing changed are the names of abilities, other than that it plays the almost same. you build CPs and use finishers, with the added benefit of rerolling RtB for windows to use more effective finishers. Hmm where have i seen that shit before, oh right fucking Bandit's Guile, except that shit wasn't rng based as much just more RPM based.

So on the surface without the deep math some names and animations got changed and voila.

And if you pick SnD, it's exactly like combat was, outside that we don't get AR cd reduction from Restless Blades, which seems to be even changing in the next patch. And almost forgot Pistol Shot, cause that's different.

And if you want more talent choices, cause heck SnD takes a spot.
How about Cannonball Barrage, Killing Spree, Anticipation, Vigor, Quick Draw.
Cause i could swear no one uses them. Or well Cannonball can be used gain in a high aoe situation.
This is why cookie cutter one row specs suck, there' all this choice and no one takes it.
In that regard SnD is at least an exception, if you don't like RtB it gets picked even if it sucks in performance.

[Xanatu]

Game has changed how, cause all i see regarding most things is that the game is too easy which would be the siding with the brainless?

I'm going to stop right here because you and I are not playing the same game if you think WoW is too easy. It has literally never been harder at any point in its history.

[Don the Insane]

I want to address a point. I don't want slice instead of RtB because it's easier, brainless, or because I'm nostalgic for the way it used to be - I want more control over my play. I don't like RtB because depending on rng, I could play flawlessly (I don't, but I'm making a point), and fall behind on my potential dps, because I got unlucky with my rolls. It's not that I can't handle deciding when to reroll or not. I think there's an interesting gameplay element there, in deciding whether or not to roll. But I strongly dislike having my control over my output limited by rng. Slice may be less interesting to some, but that's why choice is a good thing. I'll never understand "I like it this way, and if you don't, you're wrong". I'm not here to advocate one playstyle over the other. I'm here to advocate choice, which is why I think moving SnD baseline and RtB as a talent is the best solution.

[Xanatu]

I want to address a point. I don't want slice instead of RtB because it's easier, brainless, or because I'm nostalgic for the way it used to be - I want more control over my play. I don't like RtB because depending on rng, I could play flawlessly (I don't, but I'm making a point), and fall behind on my potential dps, because I got unlucky with my rolls. It's not that I can't handle deciding when to reroll or not. I think there's an interesting gameplay element there, in deciding whether or not to roll. But I strongly dislike having my control over my output limited by rng. Slice may be less interesting to some, but that's why choice is a good thing. I'll never understand "I like it this way, and if you don't, you're wrong". I'm not here to advocate one playstyle over the other. I'm here to advocate choice, which is why I think moving SnD baseline and RtB as a talent is the best solution.

That's what these changes have done: with restless blades being baked back in, TB being nerfed, and RTB trending towards 1-2 buffs, you *should* be able to get more consistent DPS now. The only thing consistent about current SND is that it's always a DPS loss to play with it.

[Deleted]

Please take a moment to search for Swol's thread on the subject of simming Outlaw. Outlaw stat priorities and goals vary to an immense degree based on a number of factors.

In the future this may change somewhat, in the meantime his results are still worthwhile.

Not with the new saber slash traits and the potential 4 ranks in some other traits. I am pretty sure it change a lot how stats interact with each other.

That's what these changes have done: with restless blades being baked back in, TB being nerfed, and RTB trending towards 1-2 buffs, you *should* be able to get more consistent DPS now. The only thing consistent about current SND is that it's always a DPS loss to play with it.

I remember seeing sim that put SnD in top of Rtb with some stats (by a very slack marging) and even if RtB is 1-2%, it's not really better IMO considering the difference between making always the right decision when playing and just what a sim can do. And the simplicity of SnD can make up for people that don't master RtB /MfD. For me there is no easy answer to the question "is RtB better?" it depend too much on the player himself. And having 2 viable options that change the gameplay for a spec is always better.

[Redecle]

I'm going to stop right here because you and I are not playing the same game if you think WoW is too easy. It has literally never been harder at any point in its history.

Depends on the scale. No i don't do mythic raiding as you seem to do currently.
But i did that in Wrath, Cata, Mop and well in TBC it was just called raiding. And that shit was hard, yet we did it. It took wipes, hundreds of them but we killed everything in the hard mode and heroic (current mythic). Only thing they changed was the name of the difficulty.
In vanilla the raiding mechanics weren't that hard, cause there wasn't that many of them per boss,
but the amount hasn't really increased since Wrath hard modes. You dodge shit, kill shit and try to move in a organized fashion.
Well at least in a progressive raiding guild that's how you do it, most bosses have a spot for you and then a place in the strategy you can move to if needed and then back to your place. If everyone moves as they desire and take other peoples spots etc and do what they want to kill something, it's not a progressive raiding guild or at least not a competitive one.
People are like Mythic Gul'dan omg, from what i've seen it doesn't hold anything more complex that what LK had for one singular player, i can say Heroic Lich King 25 omg. The difficulty varies in the group wide organization, like Starbro mythic, but even that's not something we haven't seen before, sure the precise mechanic might be, but how you deal with it, no. For LK one random person not paying attention for a second and he can wipe the whole raid already in the beginning. Do that shit for what 15-18 minutes constantly. Seems pretty much the same. Mechanics might have gotten more complex over the years, but that does not equal harder. Things like addons also improved exponentially to make said mechanics less punishing. Shit that was hard in vanilla was hard cause there wasn't DBM to tell you to move, samething equally hard and more complex now and DBM is shouting in giant block letters you to move, is not hard. Also players are more custom to the game now, they know how specs and classes work, what is optimal and what is not. If you're in a progressive guild you can pretty much guarantee that everyone is in the cookie cutter spec already. Example when i began in vanilla, i didn't use SnD for the first 6 months at all, cause i had no idea it was needed. It's like this is cool i'm just hitting my Sinister Strike, and Eviscerate. I was in Uldaman i think when another rogue pointed out that my dps was shit and why that is. Fucking SnD, but before that i didn't know better. Now if you come to the game you're almost forced to learn that hey you need to keep this shit up and do this shit with this ability. On the spec level difficulty i'd say that's a lot easier, than going 6 months of doing it wrong, just cause hey i need CPs for Evis, don't have no time to SnD which doens't do damage.

There's nothing in current mythic that seems that much different. So how is the game hardest it has ever been?
World first kill times doesn't support that since most mythic bosses took longer to kill in the past than they do now, some because of bugs, but that's not for comparison. I'm not saying it's easier, but it's on the same level. It's not like RtB is making it possible to invent new boss mechanics, it's group up, spread out, dispel, interrupt, avoid, heal, taunt, stack. Like it has been for quite some time. I don't see how you can go harder from those without introducing something completely new gameplay.

Still i keep up with stuff and the boss mechanics aren't that much different, cause there's literally a limit how far they can be taken.
On other fronts what's there hard about the game? i've played 12 years, there's nothing hard about it outside of high end raiding and high end rated pvp.
The controversial fact that outside mobs are now scaling to ilvl, that shit was a joke, the community went ballers over nothing. Can't oneshot shit, big deal.
In vanilla elite mobs used to oneshot you, instead now you kill them for no effort.
When was the last time you died to a single, two or three non elite mobs outside, not a player, mob?
Oh and they introduced the new class challenges in 7.2 that are supposedly undoable yet in current gear. Don't know i'm in EU, no mage tower. But since there's already youtube videos of people beating them, i'd say it's not that hard. The warlock green fire questline was referred in the context, and at the beginning that was hard, not impossible but hard, still did it, on a fucking alt that wasn't even that well geared. That's probably the hardest things in the "solo" play for quite a while if not even in multiple years. These are supposed to compare, hmm we'll see soon enough. Supposedly who've done it are over 900 ilvl and below it gets impossible, but 900, what is that you can get that without stepping one foot in an actual raid. Took 4 days to get an alt monk to 890 after dinging 110, without any fucking effort or boosting. Just play the game.

And the classes and specs, they've changed absolutely at least from vanilla, not that much if you look WoD or MoP or Cata.
To be harder, not really. At least not in a major scale. Is RtB hard, no. Was SnD hard, hell no never. But the difference is that it's a bit easier since i don't have to keep track of multiple buffs and keep rerolling i can eyeball the tv, 4 chat windows and numerous other stuff at the same time as i play.
Count to 50 refresh SnD, smash CPs up, it's not that hard.

Yes there a "difficulty" in step using RtB over SnD, but it's not world shattering, it's really not the end of the world kind of stuff, it's more of a convenience factor level, something i prefer. Something that makes things like raiding or pvp easier cause i don't have to focus on what my RtB is doing or what bars are on my screen and instead i can focus on what the boss is doing, what the adds are doing, what the enemy player is doing, who is casting what.. Cause the class is baked so deep in the muscle memory you don't have to look, much like driving a stick shift car, you're not looking at the pedals or the shift stick, you're looking out the window in front. That shit was hard when you were learning, cause you were staring at what gear you're at etc, same goes for WoW. I can do my boring ass dailies when i'm looking a cooking stream or whatever is more interesting, if i know my SnD lasts 56 seconds and in between i can smash CPs until i hear ding that CPs full and Run Through. I don't have to calculate between every mob if i need to reroll shit or not, but that's how prefer to play. But i'm still intrigued that why it needs to be removed from the game since it's not really bothering anyone, unless you take an issue of it bothering? No one has given me an answer to that why? All i've gotten is the game has changed it's not as it used to be or change happens you need to adapt. That's not a reason, it's the same as SnD was in the game for 10 years boohoo.It's a statement not a reason.
Why do we have talents if everyone should have the same talents? Wouldn't it be easier to just baseline the cookie cutter and remove talents cause choice doesn't seem to be an option to have in an RPG. Bake everything into the same mold. Most of the blue posts on this issue of balancing RtB are going about it to balance RtB because of RtB, it doesn't really have anything to do with SnD, they are working on it on the side. But RtB is not balanced because of it. Is SnD a relic of the old, yes, but why does it need to be removed? And another thing what does removing SnD solve? Really? Does it fix RtB's own personal problems? How does it impact anything beside the fact that people who hate RtB are now forced to play with it so they can hate playing the spec, that sounds totally cool, i play this spec cause i hate it. And if SnD does less damage and isn't viable, but people choose it anyway. How does that affect RtB? or people playing with it?
If another player is doing less damage by choice how does that affect you?
They are likely not even doing the same content. And if they are there's another reason for it than the choice of talents. Currently if you're doing content like 5hc or 5m below 6 or 7 you can do that shit with no talents naked and backwards. It doesn't matter if you doing 700k or 640k. If you're doing high end progression, you're going to be doing it in the spec and talents that are the cookie cutter, not what is your personal preference, cause that's how that shit works. You're playing for the raid, you suck it up for the 3 hours of progression and play what is needed and then do whatever you want after that with your spec.

And don't say cause it's the future or things change, cause that's not a god damn reason.
Same thing, it's not in the flavor of the spec. Of what? The spec is called outlaw, not a pirate.
Some of the abilities might say pirate, but the spec doesn't. What is the flavor of outlaw, who the hell knows, that word describes like 20 different types. All i care you could be a escaped criminal convicted of tax evasion to be an outlaw. Should we name RtB to I Have Money in the Caribbean Tax Paradises for that? Where the animation is the rogue throwing out cash from his pants and still be called an Outlaw as spec.
People might say they want things to be more complex, that's a why, it's an opinion, but it's a why. Maybe you've hated SnD for 10 years.
But then i can follow, why does it need to be complex or why does it need to be the same and complex for everyone?
If there's choice that is a choice and not a cookie cutter why it can't exist?

[Don the Insane]

That's what these changes have done: with restless blades being baked back in, TB being nerfed, and RTB trending towards 1-2 buffs, you *should* be able to get more consistent DPS now. The only thing consistent about current SND is that it's always a DPS loss to play with it.

What these changes have started to do.-- If the goal in 7.2.5 is to water down RtB to 1 buff most of the time, with almost never having to reroll, explain to me how that's at all more complex than SnD. It becomes the same ability, in terms of rotational interaction, with a pirate skin, that will occasionally proc a bonus. Why not keep some of the interactive element that some regard as more complex, virtually as-is, but move it to the talent tree in SnD's place, so instead of SnD vs RtB+mfd, you choose between RtB vs. SnD+mfd?

[Xanatu]

What these changes have started to do.-- If the goal in 7.2.5 is to water down RtB to 1 buff most of the time, with almost never having to reroll, explain to me how that's at all more complex than SnD. It becomes the same ability, in terms of rotational interaction, with a pirate skin, that will occasionally proc a bonus. Why not keep some of the interactive element that some regard as more complex, virtually as-is, but move it to the talent tree in SnD's place, so instead of SnD vs RtB+mfd, you choose between RtB vs. SnD+mfd?

If you read my other posts I've complained about this very thing - I think it needs to be balanced around a generic 2-buff roll, not a one buff (because as you said, that's basically just SND), and not around true bearing. RTB with 1 buff is just SND all over again.

[Deleted]

pretty sad they dont even try to push outlaw a bit before 7.2.5 hits the live server.
outlaw is the bottom now on logs for all NH fights huhm? Atleast a lazy 5% buff for all skills would justified.

[testing123]

RTB

i would rather see a full point of True Bearing become standard and the RtB True Bearing removed


but, if you keep what they are doing
make SnD a standard Spell, not a talent, put something in it's place or leave it blank would be fine

then you have SnD versus RtB which can both take MfD (RtB would still be better with True Bearing, but would be close enough)

[RobertoCarlos]

Just because something has been in the game for 12 years doesn't mean it's not a bad mechanic. SnD was always simple and was only ever added to create complexity in the rotation in the form of maintenance buffs. They've moved from the simple maintenance buff, to a complex one that affects the rotation outside of merely maintaining the buff.

If you don't like that, then...so what? The game moves forward and you don't.

Why do you like symbols of death then and defend sub any chance you get.

Any outlaw rogues got the new skins yet. I'm waiting on the screenshot Xanatu