England vs Spain over Gibralter

[satimy]

Irrelevant question because this is not a military issue.

Not yet.....

[Kalis]

It only makes sense in the end, after having betrayed the Czech and the Polish, why stop there? Even in 2017, Britain is such a lovely team player, we'll see how well it goes. I don't hold my breath though.

Perhaps if the French had not been so keen to deep throat the cocks of genocidal maniacs, then we would not have had to sink the French fleet.

[Mihalik]

Perhaps if the French had not been so keen to deep throat the cocks of genocidal maniacs, then we would not have had to sink the French fleet.

Only if they had that sea separating them from the Germans lacking a sizeable navy, so they could also beat their chests about "how they held out"!

[Kalis]

Pot calling kettle black.

There are no views I hold that could be considered extremists by any reasonable person. Even my support of Arsenal is not extreme.

Again, it wasn't the EU or Spain or anyone on the continent who started this shit show. But if it is on, you might as well be in it to win it.

Perhaps the EU needs to rethink whether it wants a deal that is good for its member states, or if it wants to pander to Spanish ego and end up fucking everybody over for no gain.

[Deleted]

Probably the UK needs to remember who his allies are.

Sabre rattling isnt really useful.

[druenos]

Which war, OP, considering that ''Spain'' did not existed until the final decade of the 15th century and that Gilbraltar was not taken until the 18th century

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You are utterly deluding yourself if you think that the biggest export market of th UK is outside Europe.

The UK exports 44% to the EU and 56% to the rest of the world, dropped over 10% in the last decade. Go look it up.

[Kalis]

Only if they had that sea separating them from the Germans lacking a sizeable navy, so they could also beat their chests about "how they held out"!

We are terribly sorry for geography.

[ranzino]

....

With fucking halberds. I kid you not.

Yup, France was not amused in the Battle of St. Jakob an der Birs, when their 20k armagnac mercenaries met with 1500 pikemen from Basel and Swiss Confereracy.

[Deleted]

Seems the EU isn't going to let the UK get away with this brexit easily.

And I heavily suspect the EU made these concessions towards Spain in order to silence them about a possible EU application of an independant Scotland.

[Mihalik]

Perhaps the EU needs to rethink whether it wants a deal that is good for its member states, or if it wants to pander to Spanish ego and end up fucking everybody over for no gain.

Why would catering to Spain be bad for its member states? There are a 100 other issues where the EU needs to shaft or corner the UK, especially around the North Sea, food and energy exports to the UK and fishing rights and quotas.

Then it also needs to corner the City to shift as much of it as possible and desirable to the continent or Ireland etc. There is a long list of areas where the UK needs to be leveraged and pressured, it might as well start with Gibraltar.

[Drekmar]

Gibraltar doesn't want to leave the UK.

Gibraltar doesn't want to leave the EU either.

[Mihalik]

And I heavily suspect the EU made these concessions towards Spain in order to silence them about a possible EU application of an independant Scotland.

That is one potential area, others might be anything I mentioned before ranging from fishing rights, food exports, all the way to energy and the North Sea.

[Pann]

Yet.

Again mate, this is not a question of good faith anymore. The UK choose to sabotage the European project, and threatened early on with things like turning itself into a tax haven and to imperil security cooperation. There was never any good faith on behalf of the UK, and the EU should do absolutely everything in its power to return the favor.

This is an adversarial situation at this point, and the EU should exclusively hold its own interests in mind, how bad the UK gets shafted by this, is irrelevant. Actually the worse it is for the UK the better.

Actually I am a bit more on the waaaaaaay extreme side of this (and I actually hold a British passport), I think the ultimate goal of the EU should be the economic isolation of England and the dismemberment of the UK as political entity, by strongly encouraging Scottish independence by any and all means available short of the use of military force.

These kind of views will do more to sabotage the European project than anything the UK can or will do.

It is fair, and expected, for the EU to look after its member states' interests but that does not include supporting one member state trying to undermine another country's territories.

[Auxora]

I'm not sure why Brexit would change the status of Gibraltar or any other of the remaining UK territories. It's not something they'd go to war over, and 99% of the citizens there wanting to stay in the UK makes it moot. That a majority also wanted to the stay in the EU is irrelevant. Otherwise you could say the same for any city in England where Stay had a majority, that it somehow means they could leave the UK and stay in the EU. That's not the way it works.

And as for the general angst against old school imperialism and wanting them to be independent, Spain currently still has about 9 small protectorates in Northern Africa left from the colonial days. So it would be quite hypocritical for them to make that argument while those remain under Spanish control.

[ranzino]

Gibraltar doesn't want to leave the EU either.

Fair guess they will be asked now what they want: UK or EU. But staying in EU means "become a part of Spain"; not their cup of tea AFAIK.

[Kalis]

Why would catering to Spain be bad for its member states? There are a 100 other issues where the EU needs to shaft or corner the UK, especially around the North Sea, food and energy exports to the UK and fishing rights and quotas.

Then it also needs to corner the City to shift as much of it as possible and desirable to the continent or Ireland etc. There is a long list of areas where the UK needs to be leveraged and pressured, it might as well start with Gibraltar.

You have no idea how shafting the UK would negatively affect other EU member states, do you? Accede to utterly pointless Spanish requests and fuck up the RoI, that is really giving a shit about the EU member states.

The EU needs to decide whether it wants to destroy itself, by trying to piss off the UK and increasing anti-EU sentiment, or come to an amicable settlement in order that everyone wins.

There is $1 trillion (not a typo) of investment in other EU states via the UK, can the EU really afford to lose a significant chunk of that over stupid shit like Spain still crying 300 years after losing Gibraltar?

Do you know why the precurors of the EU were formed? It was to make sure that the economies of Europe were so enmeshed that we could not go to war with each other. Do you realise how stupid it would be to start an economic war with that being the case?

[Deleted]

How is it an imaginary backdoor, when Spain are named as someone the UK has to have an agreement with before it goes to the EU? That is literally saying that Spain has a say in Gibraltar over and above that as a member of the EU.

Backdoor implies secrecy or bypassing regulation. This is done out in the open, and through every proper channel. It's a rightful frontdoor.
To be clear, nowhere is it said that the UK needs to agree to anything. If the UK wants one, they only need Spanish consent. Spain has a say on EU matters, yes, a veto specifically. The EU is more than used to multiple vetoes. And supports the interests of its members, as usual.

Given the interest that Spain has shown for the well-being of the colony for decades, granting them several concessions and privileges, it's only natural that the local power oversees these specific negotiations, if there are any. Any cursory examination of continuous Spanish generosity towards the Rock indicates that they're more than willing to have a sucessful relationship over the years.

If UK old men and shoddy politicians want to wax warfare rhetoric, so be it... people are getting used to that kind of bullshit.

[Glordif]

That is one potential area, others might be anything I mentioned before ranging from fishing rights, food exports, all the way to energy and the North Sea.

You should probably just stop talking now, as you clearly have no idea what you're saying. The EU has very little to say in the North sea the majority of fish and all of the oil are on both the Aberdeen/Shetland island side or Norway. Last I checked Norway wasn't an EU member state.

Speaking as someone who operates in the North Sea oil & Gas industry, and who's girlfriend's dad is a north sea fisherman.

[Kalis]

Backdoor implies secrecy or bypassing regulation. This is done out in the open, and through every proper channel. It's a rightful frontdoor.
To be clear, nowhere is it said that the UK needs to agree to anything. If the UK wants one, they only need Spanish consent. Spain has a say on EU matters, yes, a veto specifically. The EU is more than used to multiple vetoes. And supports the interests of its members, as usual.

Given the interest that Spain has shown for the well-being of the colony for decades, granting them several concessions and privileges, it's only natural that the local power oversees these specific negotiations, if there are any.

Why would the UK need specific Spanish consent for what happens with Gibraltar in any UK-EU deal?

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Gotta love England.

The country that desperately loves to pretend their better than the "war-mongering" United States, but when it comes time for them to act like grown ups (by releasing conquered territories to their so-called 'allies' [or former 'allies' I guess], to returning national heirlooms they outright fucking stole) they wind up making Donald Trump look like the picture of maturity.