Marvel VP of Sales blames diversity for falling comic book sales

[OrcsRLame]

Feminism is not contemporary politics. The major feminist movements were about 50 years ago and 100 years ago respectively. You said you wouldn't be interested in plays which are literally hundreds of years old because they have political undertones. You are all over the place on this.

Did you really find the story of Bioshock to be horribly unbearable because it had extremely strong and prominent political undertones?

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Or the comic book industry recognized that they were slowly dying due to their fanbase being so homogenous and insular, so they tried to attract new kinds of fans, who ultimately weren't interested because Marvel and DC have made their universes insanely difficult to get involved in through horrible management of the overall properties.

Feminism is contemporary politics. Feminism is still going strong. Or are you so ignorant that you don't realize that Feminists exist?

Furthermore, when did I ever comment on a several hundred year old play? I don't recall this so you're going to need to refresh my memory.

As for Bioshock, I thought it was okay. Didn't hate it but I was never crazy about it either. The fact that you're asking me about Bioshock is interesting though. I don't have a problem with political concepts being used as storytelling devices; political undertones as you called them in the case of Bioshock. Bioshock did not to my knowledge reference the politics of the day in any significant way. Maybe ideologies were presented in broad strokes, but there was, for example, no criticism of George Bush. There's nothing in Bioshock that, looking back on it 200 years from now, would not make sense to the people of the day.

That makes Bioshock come off as a stylized 1960s, not someone's soapbox.

At this point I'm unsure if you simply don't understand the difference, or if you're just trying to fuck with me out of some kind obsession. My position is both consistent and absurdly simple, so I don't understand why I've had to explain it so many times and in so many different ways.

[Vexilius]

1. Extremists on the left aren't really prone to violence today. In 2017, the vast majority of the violence is on the right, whether in the form of Islamic extremism or in the form of American right wing extremism. Maybe that will change. In the 60s the left was getting very violent, but that was 50 years ago.

2. Don't tell them that our country fire bombed whole cities to stop Nazis.

So you're telling me all those anti free speech people that shut down milo by attacking people and starting fires are on the right? The same with the people who rioted, looted, and set the town ablaze in Ferguson? How about when President Trump was being sworn in as those people broke into and destroyed businesses and lit fires in the streets? All on the right huh? How delusional are you people

[NineSpine]

You rely on shit from decades ago.

I didn't bring up the KKK. He said this was just like the KKK.

Who is acting violent nowadays? It's Antifa and other paid goon forces who riot, smash up business, swarm individuals and pounce them, etc..

This antifa nonsense had killed a grand total of 0 people. Dylan Roof alone killed nine people.

Leftists are the ones acting violent now. You don't bring up a washed up and irrelevent group who lost its power and pretend it matters.

Yeah, again, I didn't bring them up. You are literally whining about me responding to someone else bringing up the KKK. How about you go whine at the person that actually brought them up?

Learn what the fuck is relevent to talk about in regards to today.

Alright, let's talk about a Planned Parenthood being shot up and three people killed less than a year and a half ago by a right wing anti-abortion extremist.

Almost like calling everyone a Nazi and attacking them on that unwarranted accusation.

The guy I was responded to was saying the left is like the skinhead movement, so again, if you want to whine about hyperbole, maybe try the person actually using it.

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So you're telling me all those anti free speech people that shut down milo by attacking people and starting fires are on the right? The same with the people who rioted, looted, and set the town ablaze in Ferguson? How about when President Trump was being sworn in as those people broke into and destroyed businesses and lit fires in the streets? All on the right huh? How delusional are you people

Oh no did someone start a fire in the street and break a window? What ever shall we do? On the right we have mass murder and execution, and you are crying about a busted window and some tossed rocks.

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Feminism is contemporary politics. Feminism is still going strong. Or are you so ignorant that you don't realize that Feminists exist?

That's like saying that the enlightenment is contemporary philosophy because the ideas live on.

Furthermore, when did I ever comment on a several hundred year old play? I don't recall this so you're going to need to refresh my memory.

Henry.

As for Bioshock, I thought it was okay. Didn't hate it but I was never crazy about it either. The fact that you're asking me about Bioshock is interesting though. I don't have a problem with political concepts being used as storytelling devices; political undertones as you called them in the case of Bioshock. Bioshock did not to my knowledge reference the politics of the day in any significant way. Maybe ideologies were presented in broad strokes, but there was, for example, no criticism of George Bush. There's nothing in Bioshock that, looking back on it 200 years from now, would not make sense to the people of the day.

That makes Bioshock come off as a stylized 1960s, not someone's soapbox.

At this point I'm unsure if you simply don't understand the difference, or if you're just trying to fuck with me out of some kind obsession. My position is both consistent and absurdly simple, so I don't understand why I've had to explain it so many times and in so many different ways.

Bioshock was a scathing criticism of anti-government right wing ideals and anarcho-capitalism. It shoved its commentary right in your face.

[Barnabas]

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...-a7662771.html

Yeah that was going to happen when you alienated the audience for those existing characters. If they *gasp* created new characters and left the ones they had established alone then sales would've picked up.

[OrcsRLame]

1. Extremists on both sides are prone to violence. This isn't surprising.

2. I'm still not sure why people get so bent outta shape about a neo-Nazi getting decked. There was a time in US history when sucker-punching a Nazi would have been greeted with applause and offers of free drinks, but now we've got folks wringing their hands in worry about the poor neo-Nazi's feelings. The "Greatest Generation" that actually fought Nazi's would be disappointed.

The greatest generation fought to defend American values, its people, and the constitution.

These neo-Nazis, for better or worse, are our people, and as such that entitles them to certain inalienable rights.

I am against the rights of neo-Nazis being violated because if you can rationalize violating universal rights for one group of people you are just a hop skip and a jump away from doing away with them altogether.

Richard Spencer is a cunt. I disagree with what he says vehemently, but I will defend to the death his right to say it.

Serious question; would you be okay with the mass execution of Richard Spencer and all his followers?

[NineSpine]

The greatest generation fought to defend American values, its people, and the constitution.

These neo-Nazis, for better or worse, are our people, and as such that entitles them to certain inalienable rights.

I am against the rights of neo-Nazis being violated because if you can rationalize violating universal rights for one group of people you are just a hop skip and a jump away from doing away with them altogether.

Richard Spencer is a cunt. I disagree with what he says vehemently, but I will defend to the death his right to say it.

Serious question; would you be okay with the mass execution of Richard Spencer and all his followers?

The issue isn't that Richard Spencer doesn't deserve rights and should be punched. The issue is that the right loves to go "SOMEONE PUNCHED RICHARD SPENCER THEREFORE THIS IS JUST LIKE THE KKK". I'm not crying over Richard Spender getting punched, even though it is wrong, because it isn't a serious problem and it doesn't represent any kind of serious social issue.

[Xargoth6634]

Well he's not wrong, in the sense that it's hard to argue with the bottom line.

[Trassk]

The greatest generation fought to defend American values, its people, and the constitution.

These neo-Nazis, for better or worse, are our people, and as such that entitles them to certain inalienable rights.

I am against the rights of neo-Nazis being violated because if you can rationalize violating universal rights for one group of people you are just a hop skip and a jump away from doing away with them altogether.

Richard Spencer is a cunt. I disagree with what he says vehemently, but I will defend to the death his right to say it.

Serious question; would you be okay with the mass execution of Richard Spencer and all his followers?

Always refreshing to see someone getting the point. I do not agree with Spencer either, but unless individuals or a group or army are acting in violence, there is no justified cause to be violent to them. I've thought in the past how great it would be to see the members of the westboro Baptist church get kicked to the curve, but given they have not resorted to physical violence to spread their twisted hate mongering, then attacking them physically would be worse then what they are doing.

In a playing field like this, you come out better by being smarter then your opponent, which is why I find marvel publishing images like the page above disturbing in how impressionable it is to the current young demographic

[NineSpine]

Yeah that was going to happen when you alienated the audience for those existing characters. If they *gasp* created new characters and left the ones they had established alone then sales would've picked up.

No, they wouldn't have. Marvel and DC are still too difficult for new readers to get into because there is far too much to keep up with. Diversity would be a benefit to them if they corrected that problem.

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Always refreshing to see someone getting the point. I do not agree with Spencer either, but unless individuals or a group or army are acting in violence, there is no justified cause to be violent to them. I've thought in the past how great it would be to see the members of the westboro Baptist church get kicked to the curve, but given they have not resorted to physical violence to spread their twisted hate mongering, then attacking them physically would be worse then what they are doing.

Right, but that doesn't change the fact that you are look "Look, a horribly deplorable person got punched once or twice on the right, so that's the same as a right winger mowing down nine black people in a church!"

[OrcsRLame]

I didn't bring up the KKK. He said this was just like the KKK.



This antifa nonsense had killed a grand total of 0 people. Dylan Roof alone killed nine people.



Yeah, again, I didn't bring them up. You are literally whining about me responding to someone else bringing up the KKK. How about you go whine at the person that actually brought them up?



Alright, let's talk about a Planned Parenthood being shot up and three people killed less than a year and a half ago by a right wing anti-abortion extremist.



The guy I was responded to was saying the left is like the skinhead movement, so again, if you want to whine about hyperbole, maybe try the person actually using it.

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Oh no did someone start a fire in the street and break a window? What ever shall we do? On the right we have mass murder and execution, and you are crying about a busted window and some tossed rocks.

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That's like saying that the enlightenment is contemporary philosophy because the ideas live on.



Henry.



Bioshock was a scathing criticism of anti-government right wing ideals and anarcho-capitalism. It shoved its commentary right in your face.

I've never seen a play called Henry. I have never criticized such a thing. I am wholly and completely unfamiliar with such a work. @sarahtasher Mentioned something about some thing or another called "Richard III and Henry V" and he or she seemed rather flabbergasted that I was not familiar with that work, but that is the honest truth. Absolutely no godly idea what you're talking about.

I didn't see Bioshock as a criticism of those ideas; they were simply used as storytelling devices. And there's no characters making moral judgments for the player either. They just present the society as is and let the player decide how they feel about it. It's not pushing an idea onto you. At worst it is using ideas as a framework for the story.

And I see nothing contemporary in that. Like, where are the real world ancaps being used as characters in Bioshock? Where is the ancap equivalent of Donald Trump that was relevant when Bioshock was made? That's not even close to Fem Thor spouting Gamergate memes. I still don't think you have a fucking clue what my actual issues are.

Furthermore, as I said, I have a pretty neutral opinion of Bioshock. It's okay. I wouldn't call it good or awesome.

[NineSpine]

I've never seen a play called Henry. I have never criticized such a thing. I am wholly and completely unfamiliar with such a work. @sarahtasher Mentioned something about some thing or another called "Richard III and Henry V" and he or she seemed rather flabbergasted that I was not familiar with that work, but that is the honest truth. Absolutely no godly idea what you're talking about.

And then you said you wouldn't be interested, as it may be political.

I didn't see Bioshock as a criticism of those ideas; they were simply used as storytelling devices. And there's no characters making moral judgments for the player either. They just present the society as is and let the player decide how they feel about it. It's not pushing an idea onto you. At worst it is using ideas as a framework for the story.

It's about how a utopian society fell apart because of those ideas. It's clear as day. It's not as heavy handed as the jingoism of Infinite, but still.

And I see nothing contemporary in that. Like, where are the real world ancaps being used as characters in Bioshock? Where is the ancap equivalent of Donald Trump that was relevant when Bioshock was made? That's not even close to Fem Thor spouting Gamergate memes. I still don't think you have a fucking clue what my actual issues are.

I don't get why you keep insisting that the story isn't political unless the characters are 1:1 stand-ins for real world people.

Bioshock is a total takedown of Ayn Rand philosophy and the head of the Republican Party in Congress is a rabid Ayn Rand fanatic. To see that as non-contemporary is bizarre.

[OrcsRLame]

The issue isn't that Richard Spencer doesn't deserve rights and should be punched. The issue is that the right loves to go "SOMEONE PUNCHED RICHARD SPENCER THEREFORE THIS IS JUST LIKE THE KKK". I'm not crying over Richard Spender getting punched, even though it is wrong, because it isn't a serious problem and it doesn't represent any kind of serious social issue.

My issue isn't so much that Richard Spencer was punched, but rather that people like @Edge- don't understand why that is wrong. It's the justification of those actions that bothers me.

Not saying you need to hold a candlelight vigil for Spencer's ruined hairdo. I simply find it mildly disturbing when people try to rationalize that violence as a good thing.

[NineSpine]

My issue isn't so much that Richard Spencer was punched, but rather that people like @Edge- don't understand why that is wrong. It's the justification of those actions that bothers me.

Not saying you need to hold a candlelight vigil for Spencer's ruined hairdo. I simply find it mildly disturbing when people try to rationalize that violence as a good thing.

Sure, but meanwhile on the right we have literal murders that are contextually pretty frequent. It's just a ludicrous comparison when right wing murders are actually happening, not a product of slippery slope theories.

[OrcsRLame]

And then you said you wouldn't be interested, as it may be political.



It's about how a utopian society fell apart because of those ideas. It's clear as day. It's not as heavy handed as the jingoism of Infinite, but still.



I don't get why you keep insisting that the story isn't political unless the characters are 1:1 stand-ins for real world people.

Bioshock is a total takedown of Ayn Rand philosophy and the head of the Republican Party in Congress is a rabid Ayn Rand fanatic. To see that as non-contemporary is bizarre.

I was assuming I would not be interested as @Saratasher framed it as something extremely political, which is not really my cup of tea. I never criticized anything there. I don't know enough about whatever that is to even begin criticizing it.

Rapture may have feel apart because of anarcho-capitalism, but that was also what allowed the city to be built in the first place. Two sides to that coin there buddy.

Furthermore, I am not "insisting that the story isn't political unless the characters are 1:1 stand-ins for real world people." I am saying that when a story does that, it's hilariously stupid. How fucking hard is that to understand?

And lastly, maybe ignorance is bliss? I was unaware that the head of the Republican party was an Ayn Rand fanatic and that that was highly topical in 2007.

Maybe this is a great opportunity to point out that the "political messages" of Bioshock were not nearly heavy handed enough for 15 year old Laurcus to understand that the game was meant to be an indictment of Michael Steele. I think that simply fact illustrates perfectly the difference between Captain American punching Hitler and what Bioshock did.

Also going to remind you again, I don't like Bioshock and I will not try very hard to defend it. I don't hate it, but I consider it to be fairly mediocre as far as story is concerned.

[Edge-]

Serious question; would you be okay with the mass execution of Richard Spencer and all his followers?

Nope, but I have no issues with people punching those calling for "peaceful ethnic cleansing" in the face.

[Incredibale]

Or the comic book industry recognized that they were slowly dying due to their fanbase being so homogenous and insular, so they tried to attract new kinds of fans, who ultimately weren't interested because Marvel and DC have made their universes insanely difficult to get involved in through horrible management of the overall properties.

That's complete bullshit. Just call white or straight people scumbags and be done with it instead of using coded language.

[OrcsRLame]

Sure, but meanwhile on the right we have literal murders that are contextually pretty frequent. It's just a ludicrous comparison when right wing murders are actually happening, not a product of slippery slope theories.

Those don't worry me as much because everyone with a functioning brain already knows that those murders are horrific and evil. It's not the acts themselves, (because good luck stopping violence in its entirety) it's the otherwise normal people that try to justify violent acts with platitudes that worry me.

[Incredibale]

Nope, but I have no issues with people punching those calling for "peaceful ethnic cleansing" in the face.

Then you have no problems with communists and socialists being treated the same way? If anything, they should be given far worse treatment given that Socialism and Communism have far higher kill counts than Nazism or white supremacy.

[NineSpine]

I was assuming I would not be interested as @Saratasher framed it as something extremely political, which is not really my cup of tea. I never criticized anything there. I don't know enough about whatever that is to even begin criticizing it.

Rapture may have feel apart because of anarcho-capitalism, but that was also what allowed the city to be built in the first place. Two sides to that coin there buddy.

Furthermore, I am not "insisting that the story isn't political unless the characters are 1:1 stand-ins for real world people." I am saying that when a story does that, it's hilariously stupid. How fucking hard is that to understand?

And lastly, maybe ignorance is bliss? I was unaware that the head of the Republican party was an Ayn Rand fanatic and that that was highly topical in 2007.

Maybe this is a great opportunity to point out that the "political messages" of Bioshock were not nearly heavy handed enough for 15 year old Laurcus to understand that the game was meant to be an indictment of Michael Steele. I think that simply fact illustrates perfectly the difference between Captain American punching Hitler and what Bioshock did.

Also going to remind you again, I don't like Bioshock and I will not try very hard to defend it. I don't hate it, but I consider it to be fairly mediocre as far as story is concerned.

Ayn Rand's philosophy (if you can even call it that) is a pretty important force in American right wing politics and has been for decades. It is less popular in the rest of the modern world.

Also a fun thing to mention here is that the final blow to the KKK was being made fun of in the Superman TV show, so sometimes even the most obvious and heavy handed political messages can be impactful and with merit.

Have you seen Get Out?

[OrcsRLame]

Nope, but I have no issues with people punching those calling for "peaceful ethnic cleansing" in the face.

That's a very cowardly position to hold imo. If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. Butcher them Oda Nobunaga style or leave them alone. Anything else is just dishonest bullshit because you're unwilling to sully your own hands for your ideals.