Arms Legion Discussion

[Teaon]

lol flawed data is flawed data. im in a casual raiding guild, have 903 eqiped, and i deal more dps than those guys u linked. as arms warrior. I have seen arms warriors dealing way more than i can (those with the 930 weapon, mine is 918). aluriel myth for example is a ae encounter, and arms has the higher logs in there, especially with the new weapon talents. Ravager , ww belt + leap trousers together with the wetstone trinket have had the aluriel toplogs for the last few weeks. On single target bosses like krosus mythic, which our casual guild is trying atm, i would be over those values that have been reported in your parses. my sim says im at 850 k dps singletarget, and im mostly heroic equiped. The problem is following: most strong warrior players went fury, and there are very little arms parses (for example one for guldan, 26 for augur) But in fact, arms is VERY competetive, and peaks ahead of fury on many encounters in nighthold, even so few are playing it. It has become a niche spec, but it is still performing absolutely top if played correctly, but its harder to play than fury. The encounters were arms really does suck compared to fury is tichondrius and botanist, (i dont consider scorpyron a boss) everything else u can be on page one of the ranking sites as arms warrior, and they have been there throughout the last month.

you need to link me your logs, or i take your post as BS

[Deleted]

you need to link me your logs, or i take your post as BS

Um what is ur raiding progress? This guy said it correctly 100%, just check what top 100 warriors have and ull be sorted

[Teaon]

Um what is ur raiding progress? This guy said it correctly 100%, just check what top 100 warriors have and ull be sorted

8/10 mythic

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Teaon/advanced

[Bigbazz]

I'm not sure why that argument was brought up about Arms being a bit "meh" in competitive terms. it's pretty true it looks worse than it is because of a real lack of parses, since the majority of raiding Warriors went Fury, not only does that mean less parses but a lot of the best players aren't putting out Arms parses.

I haven't really played WoW in quite some time, my last hightlight was uploaded 22 Feb, 854k on Star Augar at ilvl895... Arms is definitely capable of high numbers, it just needs to be supported by good RNG and carried by a good Draught of Souls. But Nighthold at this point is old news, all the good guilds have cleared it and the leftovers are guilds falling apart and scraping together recruits to try to finish it off as they benefit from 7.2 artifact scaling.

If we look forward to Tomb, with the new Golden trait unlocked and the new tier bonuses there is a lot of opportunity for Arms to come out strong again, obviously too early to tell at this point but it's pointless having a discussion crying over Arms performance when competitive progression is long over and everything is in the process of changing.

[Blorgo]

Arms will be a lot higher in logs after the majority of the Players has their new golden trait. Until then the DPS gain from the artifact traits on singletarget is basically 0 whereas fury gets them immediately.
In Addition to that, the fury 4 Piece from TOS looks pretty underwhelming compared to the Arms one.

For the rest of Nighthold I'm switching to fury eventhough my legendarys are shit - maybe when i get the legendary ring i consider playing arms for the Starboy and Elisande but for the eyes on Guldan Fury will probably be king depending on how good your guild can deal with the eyes - eventhough the rank 3 guild did it with an arms warrior.

[gruxxar]

I started out as arms in Nh mythic with legs & ring as my leggo. I was fairly dissapointed and i dont regret my reroll to fury. Arms just lacks consistency and quick cleave. I mean sure its nice to have a big aoe every 1,5 min but fury does that every 40sec in a shorter window and has the same, if not better st dps.

Also not having those cs dry periods is comfy for my irl rage problems

[Zoopercat]

I can't really help you regarding AMR as I've not used it

@Bigbazz @Hashtronaut - I'm from AMR. We spend a lot of time comparing our sims to actual logs to ensure they are accurate. I recently posted the results pre-7.2 - where we were able to match rotations and damage very closely to logs. I know that a lot of things changed, but I wanted to illustrate that we are able to match logs really well (demonstrating accuracy). After this week's logs start getting uploaded, I'll be able to do more comparisons like this for 7.2. SimC can't be compare to actual logs like this, but you could compare it to AMR on the target dummy script to see how accurate it is.

We also take into account more things than SimC, which might explain some differences. We can simulate krosus for every dps (and tank) spec, as well as spellblade. We also have an advanced spell queuing system that matches the game's actual mechanics.

As Bigbazz said, a lot of things could be happening with your specific setup. It could also be rotation differences. If you think you found a bug however, let me know.

[Bigbazz]

@Bigbazz @Hashtronaut - I'm from AMR. We spend a lot of time comparing our sims to actual logs to ensure they are accurate. I recently posted the results pre-7.2 - where we were able to match rotations and damage very closely to logs. I know that a lot of things changed, but I wanted to illustrate that we are able to match logs really well (demonstrating accuracy). After this week's logs start getting uploaded, I'll be able to do more comparisons like this for 7.2. SimC can't be compare to actual logs like this, but you could compare it to AMR on the target dummy script to see how accurate it is.

We also take into account more things than SimC, which might explain some differences. We can simulate krosus for every dps (and tank) spec, as well as spellblade. We also have an advanced spell queuing system that matches the game's actual mechanics.

As Bigbazz said, a lot of things could be happening with your specific setup. It could also be rotation differences. If you think you found a bug however, let me know.

What would be interesting would be to be able to import an actual log, using actual player data for the rotations to use in generating stat weights, because that would allow you to more closely tailor gearing choices to personal fight strategies on specific fights.

That said, player data is almost always going to be inferior to a well made priority list executed flawlessly as the sims do, when looking at a generic situation. As I mentioned I've not used AMR so I can't have any educated opinion on how accurate it is, but one thing we are sure of is that for Arms specifically Mastery is incredibly powerful to the degree that people are sacrificing a lot of ilvl for it and still seeing a dps increase. Simcraft (which I do have a lot of experience using) has put out some really whacky results for Arms in Legion but one thing for sure is it's definitely very consistent with regards to Mastery being super strong, just as we see with in-game results.

- - - Updated - - -
@Zoopercat - I decided to give the sim a little quick look. AMR sim has a Krosus HC sim so I found the last kill I did, fight lasting 3min 14s and so I set the sim to that number, dropped the player lag/latency down from the default and set the spell queue to 100ms as I have it in game. The sim is based on my current gearset in 7.2, which is slightly superior to the gear I was using on the kill. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

This is AMR simulation of my ilvl898 7.2 Arms gearset, which in Simulationcraft currently sims at roughly 830k dps. 



This is a screencap of the actions page for the log, where I did 790k dps on Krosus for the same duration, at ilvl895.


Mortal Strike usage

ARM = 44 uses, 40.6mil damage
Log = 35 uses, 40.6mil damage

Draught of Souls

AMR = 2.7 uses? 23.8mil damage
Log = 3 uses, 29.98mil damage

Execute

AMR = 19.5 uses? 16.6mil damage
Log = 19 uses, 20.6mil damage

Slam 

AMR = 45.9 uses? 12.2mil damage
Log = 42 uses, 12.14mil damage

Corrupted Blood

AMR = 7.9mil damage
Log = 9.65mil damage.

So yes we are close in some aspects but we are way off in other aspects, and the simulated numbers are a long way below the kind of dps being achieved by my character, my log is 120k dps ahead of the sim despite being in inferior gear, where as Simulationcraft is giving me closer to what my log is showing.

Edit : It appears I forgot to turn on Old War potions. Though I only used 1 in the log, it's quite significant.



These are my results with Old War, overall dps is closer but the big differences in overall spell damage still remain.

[Zoopercat]

Bigbazz - thanks for those links.

Have you done a comparison line-by-line? That's what I do. Since you're in the 99th percentile, not only does that show you are skilled, but also likely got some real lucky streaks. A super fast look shows an extra 5 million damage from just the extra crit rates you got above average. I see in some of the sim-attempts DoS gets use before the bridge break, and you use it after (so it doesn't get cut off). I'll test out some APL adjustments to hold after the break - this is one of the reasons it's cool to have real boss scripts - you can test out very specific things to get very specific advice. So stay tuned, I'll play with that.

Also, not sure if you had a chance to review the comparisons we did to logs, but I have this so say for Arms Warriors:

Besides Combat Rogues, this is one of the hardest specs to have a log match a simulation. This is due to the high number of actions per minute. The buff, Focused Rage, is off the GCD and gets used quite often.

I'll be reviewing logs again later this week to ensure things match like I did pre-7.2. If you do a full comparison to your log and see anything wrong, let me know. I will be giving it more attention this week - that's how we've been able to be so accurate for Nighthold.

I saved this for last because you probably already know this, but just in case: see how the standard deviation is listed at 45,752? That means 60% of your attempts will be 45k lower or higher. And the rest will be within 2 standard deviations. So it's normal to have swings. So what I do it compare crit rates, base damage, crit damage, etc. And then you have to look at how buffs line up and see if that attempt was lucky or not. And then anything that looks off, gets dug into for either rotation updates or bugs.

[Bigbazz]

@Zoopercat On RNG, it's fair to say no good Arms log is without generous RNG. While I also played reasonably well, I did make mistakes and it wasn't perfect (in strategy nor execution). A robot in the same situation is doing a better job than I did and I think there was actually a lot more damage on the table.


I don't know if you changed anything, but running the test again just now I'm seeing vastly different results in overall performance. I imported the log (cool feature!) giving me the exact gearset and then manually turned on the 10% damage trait (which obviously would be missing since it's a pre 7.2 log) and we arrive at 785k which is very close to my log and completely different to the results I got earlier. I then imported my current char, and we get 803k dps, which again is a long way ahead of what I was seeing earlier, and much closer to what I expect.

That said, for some reason AMR shows only 2.7-2.9 uses of Draught and Avatar, which I assume means on some iterations it is only using them twice, where as my log has Draught/Avatar used 3 times (and the last time just before boss dies, without BC being available), Draught only being used twice would account for the difference in Draught damage between AMR/Log.

I haven't looked into anything with real detail as I'm on my slow laptop and everything takes an eternity, but a quick glance of my latest sim run looks like the sim is now playing better than I am on the log aside from Draught/Avatar use. Whatever the case, the numbers seem closer now.

[Zoopercat]

@Bigbazz - we did not change anything since you last tested it. Could just be the log import you used or some setting. While we try to make it super easy to use, any little setting can change things a lot.

Also, yeah, turning on that 10% damage thing - good call (I can't believe I didn't catch that earlier). Normally you can roll back to previous versions (see the version: live dropdown)? However, since the artifacts TOTALLY changed it doesn't quite work so nicely.

Re: DoS usage: yes, sometimes it won't use it because of the fight length variance (if the fight is a lot shorter). I do still want to update it so that on longer fights (like yours at the full 195), it makes sure it isn't used right before the bridge break. We have logic built in to handle this automatically (cool, right?!). However, that's for channeled spells, and that trinket isn't classified as a channeled spell. So we'll update that.

BTW - thanks for working through this with me. It's quite helpful to see how people are using it, and either help people use it better (or in your case, you did that on your own), or find things we can improve (like the DoS channel thing I mentioned). So I really appreciate that. And conversations like this are what I hope for when posting in these forums, so I can track down any tiny little thing to make sure the simulator is doing the best it can!

[Bigbazz]

@Bigbazz - we did not change anything since you last tested it. Could just be the log import you used or some setting. While we try to make it super easy to use, any little setting can change things a lot.

Re: DoS usage: yes, sometimes it won't use it because of the fight length variance (if the fight is a lot shorter). I do still want to update it so that on longer fights (like yours at the full 195), it makes sure it isn't used right before the bridge break. We have logic built in to handle this automatically (cool, right?!). However, that's for channeled spells, and that trinket isn't classified as a channeled spell. So we'll update that.

BTW - thanks for working through this with me. It's quite helpful to see how people are using it, and either help people use it better (or in your case, you did that on your own), or find things we can improve (like the DoS channel thing I mentioned). So I really appreciate that. And conversations like this are what I hope for when posting in these forums, so I can track down any tiny little thing to make sure the simulator is doing the best it can!

The number difference would probably point to my original import not including the 10% damage from the new 36th trait, and I'm not entirely sure why that would happen because when I imported it on my laptop just now it was correct, maybe it was a wonky armory update causing it to not correctly update the traits earlier, thus leaving it at 35. If we take the 725k number from earlier and add 10%, well we arrive pretty much on point, so it has to be that.

And yeah I figured just after post that 10% fight length variance might be the reason for the difference in Draught/Avatar, since we're quite tight on time for the 3rd use. I didn't set any variance in the settings but I guess it's 10% by default, and it does show 10% on the results page. Obviously I haven't looked at anything in detail but these numbers I'm seeing in my latest sim are very close to what I expect compared to in game, if we took away the 10% variance so we always have the 3rd Avatar/Draught then we should see numbers just ahead of mine, accounting for the better execution of the sim playing.

I assume stat weights is limited only to the downloaded version of the sim? I'd be interested in how things compare to Simcraft with a more detailed view, as I've just been skimming the surface so far.

[Zoopercat]

The stat weights require the client - but it just uses your computer for power. The website still handles the setup and reporting.

When you run stat weights, we also run every single item with a proc at various iLevels and bundle that with the stat weights. So when you rank gear, it ranks from that simulation data. However, in order to rank those in about 1 second, there is a tradeoff for 1-2% accuracy. The idea behind the gear rankings is they will get you to within 1% of your simulated DPS, including special items.

However, things get more complicated. Let's say you have legendary A and B on. And you rank legendary C in the ranked item list. Well, if you equip legendary C, other things might change (like preferred stat weights). While a regular simulation will give you a super accurate answer, the ranked item list might be 1-2% off. So we're working on that (I know, it's close, but we want to be closer). One way to do that is just run a ton of the setups, so that we have sim data for legendary C already equipped with the best stats, and pull from that data. The idea is - it adapts to your gear choices.

Hope I didn't bore you with too much technical stuff, but it seemed like you want to dig into these things. You can also stop by forums.askmrrobot.com if you have specific questions, ideas, suggestions, etc. I'll keep checking this thread, of course though!

[Teaon]

when arms phrase on trilix mythic is only 600 arms player

and fury is 6000 player

then there is clearly something wrong with the spec, and you seriously cannot say no with this huge gap

minding that triliax is ST boss, which arms should shine in

[Rangatira]

when arms phrase on trilix mythic is only 600 arms player
and fury is 6000 player(...)

Thats the Point! How can Blizzard oversee this tremendous change? Although i dont really think that something is wrong with our specc...we could use some easier and better aoe damage and some better rage cost overall (all up with the talents that should be changed in my opinion). But the tide has turned and now arms is the specc that less people play. At the beginning of the addon there were more arms players and blizzard did something for fury. Now i would expect the same engagement for arms specc...Maybe there will be some small changes in 7.2.5?
But i can tell from my experience already that having many points in ETW helps a bit with the proccs. 2 Relics plus 4 trait points let the specc feel less clumsy. I am also excited about the T20 set and if its wearable with the T19 2 piece bonus for some extra proccs...

[Deleted]

At the beginning of the addon there were more arms players and blizzard did something for fury.

Blizz did absolutely nothing for fury, if anything they completely ignored it since the start. In general there was always more ppl playing fury than arms on most fights and swapping to arms for certain fights because fury always scaled better with more gear. In the beggining of Legion arms was op as hell so obviously almost every warrior out there was playing it. Arms got nerfed twice though since then. It still can dish out good single target dmg despite what most ppl say its just that most ppl have switched now and partially not because fury was that much better than arms. Its that gearing for fury is so much easier than arms. As long as you avoid crit heavy armor pieces you are good whereas as arms you really need high mastery on every single item...

[Teaon]

Blizz did absolutely nothing for fury, if anything they completely ignored it since the start. In general there was always more ppl playing fury than arms on most fights and swapping to arms for certain fights because fury always scaled better with more gear. In the beggining of Legion arms was op as hell so obviously almost every warrior out there was playing it. Arms got nerfed twice though since then. It still can dish out good single target dmg despite what most ppl say its just that most ppl have switched now and partially not because fury was that much better than arms. Its that gearing for fury is so much easier than arms. As long as you avoid crit heavy armor pieces you are good whereas as arms you really need high mastery on every single item...

mind that it is nerfed 3 times, not 2 times, so much for blizzard "we are not nerfing specs too much in legion because people investment in ap and legendaries"

FR from 50% to 40%

FR from 40% to 30%

EtW from 30% to 12% and the relics from 10% to 4%

how is that not a fucking "hard nerf" to the fucking spec?

and no, the spec is not good, its shit, you guys need to try it, fury deals more ST

when you have total 339 arms players on Krosus mythic compare to 3,657 fury players, super huge gap

Triliax have 650 arms phrases, and fury 5,895 phrase

and tich mythic, 39 arms player LOL, and 1,617 fury.


one of the main reasons to play a spec is the high damage it dishes out, now arms, no good damage, and shit playstyle.

GL

[biggerthanpete]

Also, what killed mmo champion Warrior discussion?

For me it was the warrior discord. Real time chat and discussion and up to date info in the pins.

[Bigbazz]

mind that it is nerfed 3 times, not 2 times, so much for blizzard "we are not nerfing specs too much in legion because people investment in ap and legendaries"

FR from 50% to 40%

FR from 40% to 30%

EtW from 30% to 12% and the relics from 10% to 4%

how is that not a fucking "hard nerf" to the fucking spec?

and no, the spec is not good, its shit, you guys need to try it, fury deals more ST

when you have total 339 arms players on Krosus mythic compare to 3,657 fury players, super huge gap

Triliax have 650 arms phrases, and fury 5,895 phrase

and tich mythic, 39 arms player LOL, and 1,617 fury.


one of the main reasons to play a spec is the high damage it dishes out, now arms, no good damage, and shit playstyle.

GL

I'm not sure why you keep beating this dead horse, people are well aware of how Arms is, you've essentially made this same post re-branded multiple times now, even when discussion wasn't taking place around the subject. Yes we know Blizzard went against their word somewhat, Arms was not the only victim, and certainly not the biggest. And the nerfs were not ultimately that bad, it was performing very very well in EN and TOV due to great scaling within that bracket.

We are effectively at the end of the Tier and everything is currently changing with new traits and new tier bonuses in the future that change everything, you're making whine posts that are long past irrelevant at this point.

For me it was the warrior discord. Real time chat and discussion and up to date info in the pins.

Aye I'm on there but don't use it much, I find a lot of good discussion gets lost in the noise there with it largely being used for casual chat, and with a lot of younger posters there you occasionally see a sort of mob fanboying mentality show up and discussions being turned into meme wars at the expense of someone who might have something valuable to say, or might have needed genuine advice.

It's good as a place to pin theorycrafting findings, but since it's limited to a relatively small group of posters it means if they are late on the job then things don't get updated, if some aspects slip through system the overall theorycrafting suffers for it, compared to say MMO where it is 100% open, any player can make a thread or a detailed post and it's there for anyone to read and determine the value (or lack of). And if MMO discussion is dying because of the Discord it might overall be a negative thing.

[Anbokr]

Blizz did absolutely nothing for fury, if anything they completely ignored it since the start. In general there was always more ppl playing fury than arms on most fights and swapping to arms for certain fights because fury always scaled better with more gear. In the beggining of Legion arms was op as hell so obviously almost every warrior out there was playing it. Arms got nerfed twice though since then. It still can dish out good single target dmg despite what most ppl say its just that most ppl have switched now and partially not because fury was that much better than arms. Its that gearing for fury is so much easier than arms. As long as you avoid crit heavy armor pieces you are good whereas as arms you really need high mastery on every single item...

That's not true at all. There were many more arms players than Fury in raiding, at least. As someone pointed out, FR was nerfed from 50% --> 30% and EtW got hammered. Arms scaled much better than Fury at the start of the expac -- Arms scaled to an insane degree.

Fury received a ~4-6% net buff a few weeks after launch, and then another buff of 8% to most abilities in 7.1. Then 7.1.5 brought a suped up frothing berserker and reckless abandon, the latter being the big one. Both talents were much much better than the previous best talents in the tier. Hell, reckless abandon, aside from being a straight dps increase over old dragon roar doesn't require a global and essentially allows Fury to function with DoS -- w/o this talent Fury dps would be a lot worse and a lot clunkier.

Sure, pure buffs to Fury aren't the only thing that swung the pendulum, a big help was juggernaut actually being useful in NH and NH as a whole being pretty good for Fury through war machine and perfect OF moments on many bosses. But it is fairly disingenuous to say Fury received nothing and was always more popular. Fury was complete trash at launch and through most of EN, and the entire time it was "easier to gear for" because sure it wasn't as bound to haste as arms is to mastery (and now with DoS haste effectively equals mastery).

Now that's not to say arms is useless or bad (the point of my post is that Fury did receive help to get to where it is both in pure buffs and encounter design and responding to that specific argument), it is currently worse than Fury, but that can switch quickly in a small tuning patch combined with full artifacts and combined with new raid design.

I remember a couple weeks before NH hit I posted straight up in the Fury discord, "I think Fury will be better than Arms." I still remember one response from a pretty respected warrior, he said "You can think what you want, but as long as Csmash exists as is, Arms will be better" (he was ofc playing Fury shortly after NH launch . Right up until NH release, many warriors still felt like Arms was way superior because of the tier set. Hell, I was basically laughed out of that discord. You went into that discord or most threads and it was an endless circlejerk about how Fury got better but Arms is still king. Now look where we are. Sometimes "feelcraft" does in fact pan out.

edit: I almost forgot arguably the biggest arms nerf -- the legendary gloves and ring nerfs. This was a pretty massive nerf to the arms ceiling and safety net. People with ring/gloves almost never experienced the bad side of tactician RNG because the massive amount of rage they provided (in the case of ayala's a massive pseudo-rage sink) acted as a pretty effective proc safety net. There were a lot of, "did they nerf tac rng?" posts following the first big legendary tuning patch. Fury's ceiling wasn't affected nearly as much compared to Arms.