How do you feel about Disc

[MendUS]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I wanted to point out that getting 90% in disc might not be "impressive" from two standpoints - lack of competition, and it's relation to what other equally skilled players could do with alternative specs.

As a brute example, I could regularly score 98% ranks as survival in WoD, and my overall DPS in most non-Mythic raids would be in the top 7 or so (out of 13-15 dps). However, it was also true that I could swap to marksman and provide an enormous net gain on the raid. And my marksman parses would be in the low 80s percentile - more competition, larger parse base, etc...

I would like to ask a practical question - if this were a DPS spec, would this discussion be going the same way?

(Again, please do not get offended. I'm trying to offer some clarity/perspective on my point of view.)

No offense taken. The 90th to 99th percentile is mostly filled with those who had Innervates/Wisdoms, or had less-than-adequate co-healers with them (not soaking up the healing). Note that this is the case for nearly every single healing spec in the game. This log showed equally geared healers with access to Innervate. Any top parsing player in logs will likely have these buffs, or multiple.

Healing parses are hard to really assess because of the fact that there is only so much healing going out. Getting 90th percentile in a geared raid with not-potato co-healers and in a suboptimal setting for Disc is actually quite an accomplishment, to me anyway. So to your question: the discussion would be completely different as a DPS spec because the requirements of the player / role are completely opposite. Boss HP isn't limited except when it dies; player HP is limited by how full it is at any given time. This is the same reason why Disc parses become more competitive in Mythic content: there is more damage to heal up.

[Popokolara]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I wanted to point out that getting 90% in disc might not be "impressive" from two standpoints - lack of competition, and it's relation to what other equally skilled players could do with alternative specs.

As a brute example, I could regularly score 98% ranks as survival in WoD, and my overall DPS in most non-Mythic raids would be in the top 7 or so (out of 13-15 dps). However, it was also true that I could swap to marksman and provide an enormous net gain on the raid. And my marksman parses would be in the low 80s percentile - more competition, larger parse base, etc... but my raid dps would go up by about 10-20k.

We could "technically" kill the boss with me playing either spec, but one was demonstrably easier.

I would like to ask a practical question - if this were a DPS spec, would this discussion be going the same way?

(Again, please do not get offended. I'm trying to offer some clarity/perspective on my point of view.)

Thats a very good point, and one of the main reason disc was not present in the top 10 or so kills - that in adition to the lacking utility.

If you want to push HARd, you want the easiest, safest bet to minimise tries.

If you do not, your personal ability and care for performance surpasses everything else.
If you want to have a safe choice that will require minimum effort, risk and commitment dont take disc.

[Leaxa]

switched to resto druid first week of legion and haven't looked back

[Supliftz]

This right here is the real bone of contention, 95+% of Disc players from WoD have since abandoned the spec and I say its because the spec is broken, (external mana, team coordination, no spot heals etc)

You mean how disc went from the easiest spec in the game, to the hardest spec in the game? I'm not surprised that people quit when the spec demands more than hitting your 1 key every GCD.

Anyway how can you say disc has no spot healing when it has a low cooldown ~1150% sp heal? Resto druids have the same power level reactive spot heal, but it has x5 the cooldown LOL.

I'll also never understand the argument of team coordination. I just tell my co-healers I want to use cds at this time, and it is that easy lol.

[Deleted]

If you want to have a safe choice that will require minimum effort, risk and commitment dont take disc.

Don't you think this is a bit insulting to other classes?
Less effort, risk and commitment, maybe. Minimum, just because they are not disc? No. Half of the risks you take as disc aren't even related much to skill - got a shitty raid mechanic on you when you just built your atonements and you need to bugger off outside of boss range? No amount of skill can change that. Even the whole mana conservation shenanigans becomes a lot easier with the right trinkets (one of which took me 80 runs of brh, which wasn't particularly skillful, just extremely grindy) or external sources from other classes. Got a raidleader that will not see you have other raid cds outside barrier - or simply wont risk betting on you being able to sit and touret and hope you wont be targeted by some shit? What personal skill can change that?

I'm not saying disc is easy on its own, or that anybody becomes magically good with all of the above. All I'm saying is half the "risks" are not something the disc priest can do something about. You don't become magically good with those conditions, but without them, your chances of becoming good are much lower. I raided reasonably well as disc. I didn't instantly become a god when I switched occasionally to holy, just because I could handle disc.

Unfortunately, I see a lot (well..if you can even talk about a lot of them nowadays) of disc priests intoxicated by this superiority/martyr complex of their spec. In the past, I saw something similar (though tbh never in this amount) from holy priests. Back then I just said I will play what is most beneficial to my team, but I never asked any of the priests that wanted to stay holy to go disc. It's a personal choice, but I would be hypocritical now to turn it around and say "If you want to have a safe choice that will require minimum effort, risk and commitment dont take disc" to my raidleader as a reason. None of the above have anything to do with what is beneficial to your team. I want to choose the spec because it brings something valuable to the table, despite some downsides (like being harder to play), not because my raidleaders (or me) want to be special snowflakes. I never gave a shit about special snowflakes. I play disc because I want to make it work and I know it can be made to work.

On the sidenote, last night I just got my 7th legendary, and it was Norganon's. I only have Velens, gloves and helm to loot left from disc. My amalgam's dropped after 80 runs for somebody else in my group that was kind enough to trade it, but with the legendaries, I need more patience, which seems to be a good disc trait ). At least I got Prydaz 2 weeks ago.

- - - Updated - - -

That sounds like the issue. I generally do not need Shadow Mend except for emergencies or when Plea is 6 or higher, which makes Shadow Mend more mana efficient to get atonements out.

Pretty sure that post was related to dungeons, where we do use Shadowmend a fair bit (at leas where it's not faceroll content) :P.

[Oneirophobia]

Thats the thing, Disci is harder than the others, as in requiring a reorientation of the controllers gameply style. Its a problem? Why? Because its not as easy? Thats what you are describing?

I can be reckless with mana, I dont have to predict, I dont have to work much more. Yeah thats disc. Some people like the feelign of disc, and find the others boring. Diversity is good! Its a game, we all find what we like.

I'm not saying diversity is bad, or Disc is inherently broken due to how it works, I'm just saying it needs a tool or two to compete properly.

I'm not a dev and I hate arm-chair-deving, but if there was a way other than radiance to get Atonement out to more raid members faster, it would go a loooong way for the spec.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty sure that post was related to dungeons, where we do use Shadowmend a fair bit (at leas where it's not faceroll content) :P.

I may just be spoiled by the number of Blood DKs I end up healing, I find they're just... pretty good with just atonement.. In anything ~+6 and under anyway.

[Popokolara]

I'm not saying diversity is bad, or Disc is inherently broken due to how it works, I'm just saying it needs a tool or two to compete properly.

I'm not a dev and I hate arm-chair-deving, but if there was a way other than radiance to get Atonement out to more raid members faster, it would go a loooong way for the spec.

- - - Updated - - -



I may just be spoiled by the number of Blood DKs I end up healing, I find they're just... pretty good with just atonement.. In anything ~+6 and under anyway.

I admit i come off as a snob towards them. I had to heal a vault 12 pre patch as holy from spellbook, because i accidentally switched spec as the leader used the keystone, and had emptied my bars because i intended to revamp the ui but ended up disliking the new spell setup. I used 4 spells to finish the dungeon, poh, sanctuary, divine hymn and flash heal, with misspulls happening often. I got disgusted by the experience

I am not denying the existence of a skill ceiling far above my own capabilitiers with all healing specs, but if someone told you press x y z in that order and add a W every now and then you will be more than decent. That is the minimum commitment for me.

[Kilee25]

The core of most classes can usually be played with 8 spells. If the "rotations" get much larger than that it can feel a bit like operating a flight simulator... I seem to recall playing a warlock during wrath and cata felt like this, with the core affliction rotation being something like 10-12 spells. If you had to play disc with as few spells as possible (ie quickly pull them from your spellbook), what would they be? This is a pretty good litmus test to indicate the complexity of a class.

[MendUS]

The core of most classes can usually be played with 8 spells. If the "rotations" get much larger than that it can feel a bit like operating a flight simulator... I seem to recall playing a warlock during wrath and cata felt like this, with the core affliction rotation being something like 10-12 spells. If you had to play disc with as few spells as possible (ie quickly pull them from your spellbook), what would they be? This is a pretty good litmus test to indicate the complexity of a class.

Core Kit
Plea (5 or less Atonements)
PW:S (Use on CD)
PW:R (Used to apply Atonement when over 5 Atonements in the raid)
Penance (Use on cooldown, even during Rapture)
DoT (PtW or SW:P, constant ticking damage on Atonement targets equates to a HoT for other healers)
Smite (Use when Penance is on CD and Atonement targets need healing)

Major CD's
Rapture (Use early and often in advance of damage)
Shadowfiend (Use at high Atonement count for constant AoE damage)
Lights Wrath (Use at high Atonement count for burst AoE damage)
Barrier (25% DR CD, use when raid will be stacked)

The part that gets confusing for most is how to combo these together and proper timing. If you know the boss damage pattern (what abilities are "dangerous" and when they happen) and time your Atonement count to be high when damage is occurring, while following up with DPS, you'll be rather successful. Improper timing will result in Atonement's falling off early, or conversely, Atonements count not being high enough when damage happens. Getting the right timing means you have the maximum amount of Atonement out that you need (15+ in a Mythic raid) and can follow up with damage as soon as it occurs.

[longxia]

Twitch (I don't stream that much, but intend to going forward more often, at least till I retire)
https://www.twitch.tv/mend_us

Video guides on the H2P YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09lk...Upvg46qQ0FLkpv

Personal YouTube (been inactive since EN)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIF...Z6o65ogNmbr8XQ

Written Disc guide:
https://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=8882

Mythic Nighthold Boss Strategies for Disc:
https://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=9522

Heroic Gul'dan Log
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2&type=healing

Note: PUG, Heroic, 2 Druids competing for my healing, only one mana trinket, Gul'dan (arguably the worst fight for Disc in NH), no wisdom, no innervate. Result? 90th percentile parse and beat the other healers in healing + 87M boss damage.

I could link every single resource that I (and others) have published to help players get to an acceptable level, but then again, you can always go to the H2P Discord where there are a community of fellow Disc Priests willing to help analyze logs and get you pointed in the right direction for accurate information.

Wow you have been a busy man, but what I am asking for is mythic logs of Disc Priests doing acceptable HPS without Innervates. Not discussions about how its possible, no diagrams, no theory, no advice threads. Actual (mythic) log proof that Bigfoot exists.

Ive never seen or heard of such logs (okay HPS, mythic, no external mana) and Im feeling quite skeptical that they even exist.

Also helpful would be videos of people doing it, preferably with commentary not music or game sound. Then with just one hyperlink this thread can pretty much shut down as all can see that the controversy is over, the science is settled, Disc is viable its a *fact*. (Just gotta be a good enough player).

Otherwise I think its pretty cruel to encourage thousands of people to waste their time doing the WoW equivalent of trying to win Mr Olympia without steroids.


(PS: that link to the Heroic log seems broken, and mythic advice is awesome)

[Atharaxie]

what I am asking for is mythic logs of Disc Priests doing acceptable HPS without Innervates.
(PS: that link to the Heroic log seems broken,

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2&type=healing

No innerv, no BoW difficult fight for Disc, cake and promises

[longxia]

That dude can definitely heal, for sure. But that is a Heroic log, idk if many people do Mythic raiding as Disc without external mana. Actually Im not sure if anyone does.

[Deleted]

That dude can definitely heal, for sure. But that is a Heroic log, idk if many people do Mythic raiding as Disc without external mana. Actually Im not sure if anyone does.

I found 3 logs plucked at random of disc's doing decent healing numbers in mythic without innervates they aren't all that hard to find.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ealing&fight=2
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...9&type=healing
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1&type=healing

I'm sure you could find a few logs of no innervate discs for each fight bar Gul'dan which only has 5 disc kills all with innervate.

[MendUS]

I found 3 logs plucked at random of disc's doing decent healing numbers in mythic without innervates they aren't all that hard to find.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ealing&fight=2
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...9&type=healing
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1&type=healing

I'm sure you could find a few logs of no innervate discs for each fight bar Gul'dan which only has 5 disc kills all with innervate.

Did 860k hps on M Skorp last night with my new guild but unfortunately they private log. No wisdom, no innervate, cake+promises. :- / wish I had something to share but I can't.

EDIT: Here is a screenshot for proof anyway... wish I could just link the log: http://i.imgur.com/WB7C0YN.png

[Ndogg]

I think the majority of the player base underestimates how strong Disc is. This is not your mind numbing healing spec. Everything you do matters to the raid or group. Your dps matters. Your understanding of the encounter and damage patterns matters. Your mana pool and how you spend it matters. These 3 points alone raise the skill cap far above the other heal specs. But if you master these 3 points you will see results. Our burst heal potential is second to none. Those crying for changes do not realize how broken Disc would be.

[Deleted]

I love the spec, but I hate the negative reactions of people when they notice I play disc. Then they go stand in the fire, get oneshot or twoshot, only to blame the disc healer for their own mistakes. I hate those people.

[MendUS]

I love the spec, but I hate the negative reactions of people when they notice I play disc. Then they go stand in the fire, get oneshot or twoshot, only to blame the disc healer for their own mistakes. I hate those people.

A majority of those people have that perception of the spec, not based on actual results, but based on baseless accusations made by trolls in threads like these and elsewhere. That's mostly why I reply so feverishly here to address the claims people make saying Disc requires "X" or can't do "Y", etc.

Thankfully that perception is being changed but it's a long process and a hard ship to steer, especially when you have such a small pool of players playing the spec and an even smaller group of people determining the theorycrafting and optimal playstyle within. I think ToS and forward we will see more Discs, especially after some big quality of life changes for newer players in 7.2.5 (unsure what these will be).

[Arainie]

I've played disc mainly from Ulduar to the end of WoD, going holy only when fights favour it. I went in to Legion with the hope of staying disc, and while the spec surely has the potential to be powerful in almost every fights, the effort vs reward is just underwhelming compared to holy. It also becomes a problem on mythic progression, especially when 3-healing fights as discs low healing in between burst phases can strain other healers a lot, and until that changes I dont see disc being well represented in mythic raids.

One change that'd certainly improve both QoL and "between burst" throughput is heavily reducting the mana cost of smite (ie cut it in half), as without innervates and wisdom there's no way you're going to be able to smite in all your filler gaps. Disc legendaries certainly need a lot of work as well, there's nothing that can rival the generic legendaries tbh (velen, prydaz, sephuz) on a general fight and that's just poor design IMO.

[MendUS]

I've played disc mainly from Ulduar to the end of WoD, going holy only when fights favour it. I went in to Legion with the hope of staying disc, and while the spec surely has the potential to be powerful in almost every fights, the effort vs reward is just underwhelming compared to holy. It also becomes a problem om mythic progression, especially when 3-healing fights as discs low healing in between burst phases can strain other healers a lot, and until that changes I dont see disc being well represented in mythic raids.

Seriously... read the other 8 pages of this thread before posting.

Disc doesn't do low healing during "conserve periods" of the encounter. No one ever said our healing was "low" during those periods, the only thing we are not good at is tank healing. We can actually spot heal DoT mechanics or mechanics that are targeted at specifically ranged or melee players rather well since we can somewhat predict them. Other healers are spot healing regardless of what Disc does, and Disc doesn't strain them. If anything, Disc allows them to conserve their mana during burst mechanics making their job easier, not harder.

Stating that Disc is less rewarding than another spec just because of the effort it takes to pull similar numbers means you disregard how important healer DPS is in Mythic raiding.

[Arainie]

So first of all I'm stating that disc feels less rewarding than holy because well, it quite simply does to me. I don't care to fight my way through a Mythic+ 10-15 as disc when I can breeze through as holy while outputting equal damage overall with Holy Nova on trash and 100-150k boss dps. Whether you feel the same is a completely different matter, but if disc was less clunky (again, personal feeling) in dungeons I'd most certainly consider playing disc in raids as well. Due to artifacts I can't really focus on two specs and the choice is therefore fairly simple to me, especially as I know I'm performing very well as holy.

Secondly, I never mentioned spot healing. Conservative periods do not imply spot healing in any way. As a matter of fact many conservative periods have raid wide damage (skorpyron, anomaly, trilliax to some extent, spellblade, krosus, botanist, ellisande). Disc quite clearly lacks a way of healing raid wide damage outside of burst phases, something that every healer besides perhaps holy paladins do well (but hey, they're still decent at it). Reducing the mana cost of smite would let you sustain better healing on at least a part of the raid but that said it doesn't exactly fix the problem. I'm guessing that you're progressing on Krosus at this moment and you'll most likely be able to tell what I'm getting at unless you 4-heal the fight or have extremely capable co-healers.

Finally, pick your average disc priest and slam them in a raid with your average holy paladin or resto druid. I'll bet you my nuts they'll be shattered and end up at the bottom of any meters, because quite frankly disc requires planning and coordination on a whole different level than any other healer does. What do you think that does to your average disc priest besides discourage them from playing the spec?

And again, I'm not saying disc is a bad spec at all, I'm just saying that in comparison to other healing specs it's a cold and unfriendly place until you've done your research and found a group willing to play with you instead of assuming you're just another healer and that cooldowns are only used on the fly.

EDIT: In terms of DPS, 200k is actually fairly irrelevant for most bosses in your average guild in this tier, Krosus progression aside. Your average Mythic progression roster is going to consist of 14-15 dps each pulling an average of 600k or more, with tanks pulling 300k each. That's a good 9M raid DPS, and adding a disc priest to that is going to give you roughly a 2-2.5% damage increase. If the disc priest can carry their own weight in terms of healing it's always a welcome addition, but there's a good reason as to why no top guilds use disc priests for progression in spite of the damage increase (or mws and hpriests for that matter, even though the reason in their case is lack of utility). I guess what I'm saying all in all is that Blizzard did not really nail the concept they were aiming for. I believe disc priests would be far more useful in a 5-healer setup than in the current 3-4 setup, but if you're solely looking for more DPS at this moment replacing a healer has so far been and will be the favourable option, using healing rains, darkness, vampiric touch, prydaz and other similar sources to make up for the difference.