Flying, its back tomorrow, are you Happy?

[Soisoisoi]

Why should the people who like flying have there game ruined because other people dont like flying? It was fine for most of lifespan of wow.

You're missing my entire point. Read it again, and if you understand it, reply again. Until then, I'm not bothering. The Flying debate is long dead.

[Dhrizzle]

And yet somehow it was fine for the majority the lifespan of wow.

That's debatable if you consider how long Isle of QD, Molten Front, Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle were the most up-to-date pieces of open world content in flying expansions.

Only the two wort expansions have not had flight.

MoP and Cata didn't have flight? That's news to me.

I'm sorry but its nothing but an excuse for blizzard to be lazy and give people the illusion of content.

How exactly is the open world content in Legion any more lazy than the open world content in any other expansions?

[Eleccybubb]

Meanwhile I'm just sat here happy on the ground until flying is enabled . No trouble from getting from point A to B and will be even easier when flying is in so pretty cool I guess.

[Moozart]

Very nice thread, so how is flying so far?

[Eleccybubb]

Very nice thread, so how is flying so far?

It's great. I'm flying around Stormwind on my Nightbane mount. Remember the first time I used a flying mount back in 2009 when I first entered Outland as a new player. Was pretty cool.

[Khuros]

Unhappy. Flying should be an old content feature.

Thats not how anything works. Addons make it so rares and treasures are always not hidden. land mounts should only be for leveling. Flying is a big part of why people like the game. No one rides around on their mount like that. Also "sudden pvp" Again not really. World pvp is dead. We are super powerful heroes of the world. Yet we arnt allowed to use own of a few hundred flying mounts we have? lol what?

[SirCowdog]

Again, this is all based on personal preference, not design preference of the game. But since several of you are incapable of making a rebuttal based on Facts instead of emotions, allow me to demonstrate:


And that is how you argue for flight, while remaining objective, and leaving emotion at the door. My name is Flying Monkey. I am a pro-flight player, and I approve BOTH of my messages.

So...you didn't like the points i made, dismissed them, then went on to agree with yourself?

Well....if you wanted me to stop replying to you, that's the way to do it. :/

You can't choose for other people not to fly on a PvP server, that's what I'm getting at. PvP servers get ruined by flying because people end up just avoiding PvP entirely, or worse, ganking low level alts on their mains and then avoiding your main when you log over just to be dicks. The dismount toys are never enough especially when you consider you can easily CC->Fly / Feign->Fly/Shadowmeld -> Fly, etc. and just waste a 10min CD.

So, I'd never want it on a PvP server, however, I honestly wouldn't mind flying on PvE servers, without time-gating. Obviously, that's as long as content (Pathfinder P1 is perfect) has been done - else it makes zones like Surumar City entirely pointless.

The problem is that there is a lot more ruining open world pvp than just flying. This has been gone over multiple times in almost every thread.


Putting all the rewards inside instanced pvp with matchmaking and gear balancing hurts world pvp more than flight ever could. There's zero incentive to engage in wPVP in Legion outside of whatever kicks you get from ganking. There's a possibility of some good action during the invasion, I guess. But that can happen with flying anyway.

EDIT: auto correct is the devil, I tell you. The devil!

[Cosmic Janitor]

Fucking finally.

[Nnyco]

gonna give highmountain a massive middlefinger while i fly over it

[Arthzull]

The way I see it, Flying should just be a part of the game, if they have to make it obtainable later then OK that is fine. But to the people saying it should be removed completely, I say OK then they should also remove all flying mounts, no sense in having dragons and other mounts that should be able to fly, if they remove it. I am 100% a pro flyer, and honestly hate it when people try and speak on behalf of everyone when what they want is not what every one wants. You don't want flying? cool don't fly, you want to fly? cool fly, that is the way it should be.

[WowIsDead64]

Your need for "compromise" is based on emotion. Your argument is invalid.

And your need to have no flying isn't? So, you keep pretending, that your arguments are "objective"? They aren't. Whether they're good or bad depends on your initial prejudiced relation to flying, i.e. whether you want content to be build around flying or not. WotLK proves, that content can be build around having flying and can be successful in this case.

I can also give you "objective" arguments. I wanted to say about content, being too diluted and felt, like your gameplay is constantly being interrupted by ad, but decided to say strait truth. For example, that such small claustrophobiс 2x2 isles with 10 mobs, respawning every 2 seconds, so players have to either sit in queue to complete their quest or being bored and irretated due to killing the same mob 10 times in a row - is just LAZY DESIGN. The whole reason for such design - is that after WotLK Blizzard fired all artists/designers/CMs/support staff and now refuse to use our money from sub fees properly - i.e. to hire new ones. It's just business. They think, that they can fool enough kids to make them buy half-assed product. As simple, as that.

[Chaelexi]

Happy to finally negate Legions HORRIBLE terrain. Having your path blocked by EVERYTHING every 10 yards got old real quick.

Be a Demon Hunter, not much stops you.

[Factoral]

People fighting for Flight all game. People fighting for removal of Flight.

The middle ground is having Flight unlocked later in expansion.

I've not had any problems covering terrain, and I'm a warrior.

[Deleted]

So when exactly will flying be available? I'm usually not one of those people who want flying, but the broken shore has got to be the worst fucking piece of shit in terms of land design that i'm off the "fuck flying" train completely.

Blizzard are pretty moronic in this regard. No flying hurts people with alts the most - exactly the group of people who have the least reason to complain about "lack of content" because playing alts is the maximum reusability of content. Now I don't mind that I have to gear up every character, this is part of the game - but having to re-tread all ways ad nauseum not only when playing your main (=repeatable world quests) but also when playing our alts, this is simply overkill.

I don't even pay any kind of attention to my surroundings anymore, because there is nothing new to see. I just ride through my most efficient path from WQ to WQ to get the fucking emissary chest and then switch to another character and this is it.

So, this is the engaging ground content people have been preaching about? Really? Fuck off with your lies. In MoP, I could at least postpone reputations to a later date (because I was not losing out on legendary drop chances), and had much more freedom with personal flight. Now, it's "Groundhog's day" on steroids.

[-Joker-]

So...you didn't like the points i made, dismissed them, then went on to agree with yourself?

Well....if you wanted me to stop replying to you, that's the way to do it. :/

I'm looking for a LOGICAL, reasonable, game design defense of why flight belongs and is not detrimental. I offered a sample of how that would look. You, and every other pro-flier in this thread (and the other 653,281,198 threads) root your argument in personal, subjective, and emotional circumstance. Show evidence about the benefit of flight, just as I did (before you glossed over it), and I will gladly take those opinions with more than a grain of salt. But much like Trump protesters, you are all arguing for flight based on your emotion, and not the past benefit flight provided from a non-personal perspective. Learn to argue for Flight from Blizzard's perspective, and not your own. You might actually get their attention.

But if you want to continue to make everything about personal, subjective, emotion based argument... that's the way to get me to stop responding or taking you seriously.

- - - Updated - - -

And your need to have no flying isn't? So, you keep pretending, that your arguments are "objective"? They aren't. Whether they're good or bad depends on your initial prejudiced relation to flying, i.e. whether you want content to be build around flying or not. WotLK proves, that content can be build around having flying and can be successful in this case.

I can also give you "objective" arguments. I wanted to say about content, being too diluted and felt, like your gameplay is constantly being interrupted by ad, but decided to say strait truth. For example, that such small claustrophobiс 2x2 isles with 10 mobs, respawning every 2 seconds, so players have to either sit in queue to complete their quest or being bored and irretated due to killing the same mob 10 times in a row - is just LAZY DESIGN. The whole reason for such design - is that after WotLK Blizzard fired all artists/designers/CMs/support staff and now refuse to use our money from sub fees properly - i.e. to hire new ones. It's just business. They think, that they can fool enough kids to make them buy half-assed product. As simple, as that.

I want flight.
I love flight.
Flight is probably one of the greatest features in the game.

But, I am willing to go with the flow of the game design. As a grown ass man of 43, I can use logic, not emotion to root my discussion. You should try it.

[Sensimilla]

gonna give highmountain a massive middlefinger while i fly over it

Haha I feel the same about Val'Sharah to be fair. I find it easier to walk around Highmoutain, problem in val'sharah is with many places you can simply get stuck while you are autorunning... Hate that.

I'm quite happy flying is back, it's about time. I mean if you played since Legion release you already discovered the ground secrets and every cave aka saw the world. It's time we get flying now.

[Deleted]

I'm looking for a LOGICAL, reasonable, game design defense of why flight belongs and is not detrimental. I offered a sample of how that would look. You, and every other pro-flier in this thread (and the other 653,281,198 threads) root your argument in personal, subjective, and emotional circumstance. Show evidence about the benefit of flight, just as I did (before you glossed over it), and I will gladly take those opinions with more than a grain of salt. But much like Trump protesters, you are all arguing for flight based on your emotion, and not the past benefit flight provided from a non-personal perspective. Learn to argue for Flight from Blizzard's perspective, and not your own. You might actually get their attention.

But if you want to continue to make everything about personal, subjective, emotion based argument... that's the way to get me to stop responding or taking you seriously.

- - - Updated - - -



I want flight.
I love flight.
Flight is probably one of the greatest features in the game.

But, I am willing to go with the flow of the game design. As a grown ass man of 43, I can use logic, not emotion to root my discussion. You should try it.

But there have been many arguments. If you did not notice them, then it's your fault.

One example: There is no need to keep the whole area covered with no-flying if they already have the technology to prevent you from flying in limited areas, or even dismounting you. We had this since Wrath. (Wintergrasp, anyone?) So, if they have some piece of content which should be done without flight, then please just put a special blanket over it, like we had in every expansion with special zones. Hint: These have been endgame zones, not re-used leveling zones.

This is the most mind-boggling thing of the expansion - that they are able to sell you recycled content and you praise them for it. I don't know what's your problem. People have been in the world in every expansion with flight. I remember PvP action in the Valley in MoP, when everyone and their grandmother was doing Lotus dailies, or PvP battles on the elemental plateu in BC-Nagrand, where people had to go to farm materials for crafting, just to make some examples. I regularly met people in every area which have been quest locations, no matter if flight was available or not. It had to be somehow relevant content, and everything else is semantics.

There are some minor activities which are made irrelevant with flight - platforming - but honestly, if I would be into that kind of game, I would playing a J&R, not WoW. Everything else can be solved with no-flying limits in specific areas. This was never a problem, up to WoD, and in WoD it could be masked with Garrisons for some time, but even then there was this uproar about no flying forever. Because people are able to postpone things they like for some time, but only if things are clearly stated and abided for by the other party. Cheating, lying, putting up smoke screens greatly hurts customer trust. I expect the worst for some years now, because the devs rather want us to run around on rails doing things in exactly the order they have conceived, and would like us to spend more time on activities rather than less. (You don't really think that their mob scaling with item level experiment is there so we get a better game experience, do you? They don't know how to combat item level bloat on the one hand, and don't want us to one-shot mobs on the other hand, so we take longer to finish quests.)

They want us to waste our time. This is pretty obvious if you look at the terrain design in combination with no flight, so you have to run all the mazes back and forth. We already have this in dungeons and raids, why do we have to get the same in the OPEN world - which is not so open anymore. WoW is losing degrees of freedom left and right (just look what pruning did to the characters).

[WowIsDead64]

I want flight.
I love flight.
Flight is probably one of the greatest features in the game.

But, I am willing to go with the flow of the game design. As a grown ass man of 43, I can use logic, not emotion to root my discussion. You should try it.

You keep throwing one fallacy argument after another. Now some kind of "emotion vs logic" strawman. It would be emotion, if I would just say "I WANT FREAKIN FLYING!!!". And I constantly say, that no flying itself isn't problem for me, as I'm one of those players, who started playing this game back in Vanilla on private servers, where there were no rewards for quests, cuz they weren't implemented, so I had no gold to buy even 60% ground mount till 60. Design of content itself - is problem. I would go with the flow of the game design, if it wouldn't be flawed. Flying will be mandatory for me, till Blizzard won't get rid of their "2x2 claustrophobic isle" design.

- - - Updated - - -

But there have been many arguments. If you did not notice them, then it's your fault.

One example: There is no need to keep the whole area covered with no-flying if they already have the technology to prevent you from flying in limited areas, or even dismounting you. We had this since Wrath. (Wintergrasp, anyone?) So, if they have some piece of content which should be done without flight, then please just put a special blanket over it, like we had in every expansion with special zones. Hint: These have been endgame zones, not re-used leveling zones.

Their argument - is that they tried to implement some partial fly/no fly zones, but some internal testing showed, that players wouldn't like dismounting mechanics. Yeah, initial reaction would be negative, but it still would be better, than no flying at all. But I think, that the reason is much more simple. You're right - they just want to recycle the same zones. I.e. "enable flying, when content is completed at least once" logic would work, only if Blizzard wouldn't want to reuse the same zone in future patches instead of creating new ones.

[SirCowdog]

People fighting for Flight all game. People fighting for removal of Flight.

The middle ground is having Flight unlocked later in expansion.

I've not had any problems covering terrain, and I'm a warrior.

Strongly disagree. The middle ground is giving both groups of players what they want. All it takes is not using a simple fix for a complex problem.

I'm looking for a LOGICAL, reasonable, game design defense of why flight belongs and is not detrimental. I offered a sample of how that would look. You, and every other pro-flier in this thread (and the other 653,281,198 threads) root your argument in personal, subjective, and emotional circumstance. Show evidence about the benefit of flight, just as I did (before you glossed over it), and I will gladly take those opinions with more than a grain of salt. But much like Trump protesters, you are all arguing for flight based on your emotion, and not the past benefit flight provided from a non-personal perspective. Learn to argue for Flight from Blizzard's perspective, and not your own. You might actually get their attention.

But if you want to continue to make everything about personal, subjective, emotion based argument... that's the way to get me to stop responding or taking you seriously..

Sigh...except that we've spent the past few years showing exactly why No-flying isn't a good solution. You're just mad that the answers we give don't match up with your own opinions. And then you go on to slap labels on anything that you don't approve of.

I don't need to argue from Blizzard's perspective because I completely understand what they're doing with Pathfinder. It's not in the game to make it better. It's there to make Blizzard more money as players chase a false reward and keep them subbed. "Hey guys! Keep playing and working on that Pathfinder. Flight won't be out for another 6 months, but make sure to stay subbed and get started on the achievements now!" Why do you suppose they set it up that way? Not for pacing reasons, I guarandamntee you.

The value proposition for players is terrible. Objectively speaking, what other "reward" requires the level of time and effort that flying does? And when you get the "reward" of flying, the value that it actually holds is insignificant because you've already cleared everything that you'd use it on. The ONLY way this is not true is if content releases post 7.2 contain MASSIVE amounts of open world areas that flight can be used on.

Removing and restricting flight has never been about making a better experience for the players, despite whatever spin you or Blizzard put on it. The simple fact of the matter is that Blizzard did not deliver the amazing open world experience that they claimed removing flying would allow them to do. Give me an example of a grounded experience that would absolutely ruined by a flying player, and 9 out of 10 times I will be able to give you a way to do that same experience with flying. And the one time I can't, it will be a perfect example of how sometimes it's actually ok to restrict flying.

I am not against having grounded content. But the blanket removal and restrictio of flying in every single situation is weak, and detrimental to a game which has had it's experience including flying for the better part of a DECADE. You can not convince me that No-Flying is a good solution for every single piece of content as long as we have the examples of TBC, WotLK, Cata, and MoP to show that content can work perflectly fine when flying is included. In some situations, sure! But everywhere? No chance.

[Dhrizzle]

Sigh...except that we've spent the past few years showing exactly why No-flying isn't a good solution. You're just mad that the answers we give don't match up with your own opinions. And then you go on to slap labels on anything that you don't approve of.

I don't need to argue from Blizzard's perspective because I completely understand what they're doing with Pathfinder. It's not in the game to make it better. It's there to make Blizzard more money as players chase a false reward and keep them subbed. "Hey guys! Keep playing and working on that Pathfinder. Flight won't be out for another 6 months, but make sure to stay subbed and get started on the achievements now!" Why do you suppose they set it up that way? Not for pacing reasons, I guarandamntee you.

The value proposition for players is terrible. Objectively speaking, what other "reward" requires the level of time and effort that flying does? And when you get the "reward" of flying, the value that it actually holds is insignificant because you've already cleared everything that you'd use it on. The ONLY way this is not true is if content releases post 7.2 contain MASSIVE amounts of open world areas that flight can be used on.

Removing and restricting flight has never been about making a better experience for the players, despite whatever spin you or Blizzard put on it. The simple fact of the matter is that Blizzard did not deliver the amazing open world experience that they claimed removing flying would allow them to do. Give me an example of a grounded experience that would absolutely ruined by a flying player, and 9 out of 10 times I will be able to give you a way to do that same experience with flying. And the one time I can't, it will be a perfect example of how sometimes it's actually ok to restrict flying.

I am not against having grounded content. But the blanket removal and restrictio of flying in every single situation is weak, and detrimental to a game which has had it's experience including flying for the better part of a DECADE. You can not convince me that No-Flying is a good solution for every single piece of content as long as we have the examples of TBC, WotLK, Cata, and MoP to show that content can work perflectly fine when flying is included. In some situations, sure! But everywhere? No chance.

I know you find this difficult to accept, but different people like to play the game differently to you.

I understand that in your personal opinion having flight taken away makes the game less enjoyable, but for others it allows Blizzard to make a more enjoyable experience. Blizzard have decided that is the experience they would rather deliver, so they are sticking with no flight in current content.

Your theories that no-flight is some sort of magic money generator is pure bullshit you've made up because you don't want to accept that people like different things, and in this case the chips haven't fallen your way.