The Highlord's Return Tips

[Deleted]

DPS is as important as doing mechanics and surviving abilities for tanks.

You're argument is basically that tanks shouldn't give a #### about doing damage and should just stand there and mitigate stuff(Oh and hold aggro too I guess).

I suppose an analogous example would be, that tanks shouldn't use their healing abitilies either, ever...

Maximizing your performance is very important as a tank. If you're not even trying... well.

I mean you said it yourself, it's a snorefest. So focus on doing more damage?

Your argument is flawed.

However the challenge itself, right now, seems indeed more focused around, or perhaps way too focused around putting out ridiculous numbers instead of well doing some special mechanics. Then again, playing devils advocate, it'd probably indeed be too easy if it'd only revolve around press X at time Y. I believe that, is just a tuning issue. DPS is still important, very important.

[Chrno]

I see this as a problem. I should be able to walk in with any talent build and complete this. If I have to use specific talents then the talent system failed it's only goal of providing choice with little impact to gameplay. Once something becomes mandatory for an encounter then the ability or passive should be baseline.

You should choose the talents on a fight per fight basis. That's the way this system works and is being tuned arround.
with M+'ing you roll different talents for the different affixes. You should also swap talents arrond multiple times when raiding NH.

That doesn't mean you can't do these things with 1 set talent build. But it does mean that your gimping your gameplay ...

[Deleted]

DPS is as important as doing mechanics and surviving abilities for tanks.

You're argument is basically that tanks shouldn't give a #### about doing damage and should just stand there and mitigate stuff(Oh and hold aggro too I guess).

I suppose an analogous example would be, that tanks shouldn't use their healing abitilies either, ever...

Maximizing your performance is very important as a tank. If you're not even trying... well.

I mean you said it yourself, it's a snorefest. So focus on doing more damage?

Your argument is flawed.

However the challenge itself, right now, seems indeed more focused around, or perhaps way too focused around putting out ridiculous numbers instead of well doing some special mechanics. Then again, playing devils advocate, it'd probably indeed be too easy if it'd only revolve around press X at time Y. I believe that, is just a tuning issue. DPS is still important, very important.

"I suppose tanks shouldn't use their healing abilities ever", you've clearly not read what I said as healing contributes to survival.

"it'd probably indeed be too easy if it'd only revolve around press X at time Y" wow talk about simplifying it, you know you just described every single role on every single fight ever created in WoW's history right? Just push the right button at the right time.

Never did I ever state that we should just stand in one place and attempt to mitigate damage. Kiting, positioning, interrupting, crowd controlling are all parts of a tanks tool kit as well. Damage is the last thing we should be worrying about.

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You should choose the talents on a fight per fight basis. That's the way this system works and is being tuned arround.
with M+'ing you roll different talents for the different affixes. You should also swap talents arrond multiple times when raiding NH.

That doesn't mean you can't do these things with 1 set talent build. But it does mean that your gimping your gameplay ...

That's not the intended design behind talents, if it was you wouldn't need a tome or a rested area to switch them. Talents are intended to differentiate two players of the same class and spec, to show their preferred means of playing the same thing.

[Chrno]

I disagree, good damage doesn't make a good tank. As for Krosus, and quite frankly most of the fights on Nighthold and Emerald Nightmare, none of them has enough tank mechanics. Krosus is a snore-fest for tanks and there isn't enough mechanics to differentiate a good tank from a great one.

Oh, and there's a HUGE difference between "we expect our tanks and healers to help out with the DPS" when possible, and what the role is actually about. This whole challenge is meant to be your way of showing that you know your class and role, yet it tests our damage, not our ability to tank.

I had a co-tank that thought a lot like you in HFC, guardian druid who would even use the legendary ring as a damage increase rather than survival. He couldn't handle cooldown management, positioning or other mechanics at all, but he pulled good damage. Is he a good tank in your eyes? In my eyes he's complete garbage.

Mythic plus has been the only interesting challenge so far where I actually get to do my job, as the raids have proved quite disappointing.

I boggles my mind how subborn you actually are Nowhere did i say that doing good damage = good tank. I did say that a good tank also does good damage or healing depending on the fight or the phase of a fight.

This encounter requires you to use all of your resources you have at your disposal as a tank.
- Picking up and controlling adds;
- Positioning on the platform to not get knocked off;
- Survival CD’s timing;
- DPS Cooldown management;
- do insane self healing;
- Being able to play devastator spec (no one has been able to complete it with indom afaik)
- Use spellreflect;
- interrupt spells;
- use stuns;

[Deleted]

I had a co-tank that thought a lot like you in HFC, guardian druid who would even use the legendary ring as a damage increase rather than survival.

HFC? You mean where damage on tanks was often so trivial to be meaningless?

[Deleted]

HFC? You mean where damage on tanks was often so trivial to be meaningless?

Yet he still died, imagine that.

[Deleted]

what exactly heals kruul in phase 2?

The cast you need to interrupt puts a debuff on you. Any target attacking you while the debuff is up will heal itself by 5% hp.

You can interrupt that cast, and if the debuff ever gets on you, orbs can dispel it. A shame to waste an orb on that though.

[Chrno]

"I suppose tanks shouldn't use their healing abilities ever", you've clearly not read what I said as healing contributes to survival.

"it'd probably indeed be too easy if it'd only revolve around press X at time Y" wow talk about simplifying it, you know you just described every single role on every single fight ever created in WoW's history right? Just push the right button at the right time.

Never did I ever state that we should just stand in one place and attempt to mitigate damage. Kiting, positioning, interrupting, crowd controlling are all parts of a tanks tool kit as well. Damage is the last thing we should be worrying about.

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That's not the intended design behind talents, if it was you wouldn't need a tome or a rested area to switch them. Talents are intended to differentiate two players of the same class and spec, to show their preferred means of playing the same thing.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...-Posts-Dragons

blue post

[Deleted]

I boggles my mind how subborn you actually are Nowhere did i say that doing good damage = good tank. I did say that a good tank also does good damage or healing depending on the fight or the phase of a fight.

This encounter requires you to use all of your resources you have at your disposal as a tank.
- Picking up and controlling adds;
- Positioning on the platform to not get knocked off;
- Survival CD’s timing;
- DPS Cooldown management;
- do insane self healing;
- Being able to play devastator spec (no one has been able to complete it with indom afaik)
- Use spellreflect;
- interrupt spells;
- use stuns;

Yeah I'm stubborn and I won't budge on this, damage is not an important part of a tanks tool-kit, it is not a priority for their role.

- There's barely any positioning requirements in the fight, it's all about maximizing the damage on the boss on top of the adds at the same time.
- Positioning on the platform isn't really much of a thing, as you have to chase down the eyes which spawn all over the place, even on the edges of the room, so no. You have almost no say in where to position anything as you must always either move to the boss or to the eyes.
- Having survived for 5 minutes, no, there isn't much to time cd's for as there is to interrupt/avoid/kill the arcane adds before they kill you.
- I don't have any dps cooldowns, imagine that.
- Not really, most of the healing comes from the circles when you interrupt the arcane adds, any damage beyond their stacking debuff and channel is nothing.
- I actually switched away from Warrior because of the devastator talent, hate that thing.
- Right, so basic mitigation?
- Basic tank stuff.
- And more basic tank stuff.

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http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...-Posts-Dragons

blue post

Yeah said blue post supports what I said:

When it comes to talents, which serve the primary purpose of customization and differentiation

The primary purpose of talents is customization and differentiation. If you wish to switch talents on every single boss, go for it, you're fully allowed to do that, doesn't mean they are going to design the game around it (outside of cutting edge mythic raiding which very few people care about).

[angryandbitter]

I gotta say, the whole "Tank DPS" thing really is starting to turn me away from the role. I'm starting to notice in the last couple of expansions that DPS is actually starting to matter MORE than mitigation as a tank. No boss really seems to have anything that will wipe the raid if not mitigated optimally. You can just remove all of your AM from your hotbar and still sail through heroic as long as you position correctly and do the mechanics. Heck, the other day in a H-Tich PuG the other guy I was tanking with had literally no clue what he was doing. He didn't taunt Tich when I got bloods and we ended up wiping because of it. After the wipe I spoke up about the other tank and then proceeded to get bitched at for my DPS..as a TANK. It really makes me reconsider why I'm playing tank. If DPS is so important then I will play a DPS class. The fact that the tank challenge is mostly a DPS check might be the last straw for me.

[Henriksson]

[Deleted]

Thing is, this is what defines a good player from a mediocre player. If blizzard didn't want us to do DPS we'd have no DPS abilities
Don't expect the DPS to do all the DPS and the healers to do all the healing on mythic Krosus while you can just sit back and slowly roll through your major cooldowns.

We expect our Healers and our tanks to help out with the DPS just how we expect our tank and DPS to help out with the healing if it's needed on some of the rougher parts of the fight.

This challenge is VERY MUCH tuned for high end mythic raiders as of this writing.

i have 96% percentile on mythic until elisande (currently progressing) and cant meet the dps req. It's not about the dps reqs but the stupid points on the fight for some classes. For example as blood DK you can only dmg the eye with shadow dmg ¿Wtf? we have two attacks that do shadow dmg, one has 30 sec CD, the other is AoE. I'm not even counting Death's Caress as you will need like 10 DC to down a single eye -waste of resources-. Even using blood boil previously stored, if you dont crit once you need 3 blood boil to down an eye (you can store up to two blood boil). It's tuned for ToS gear i get it, but everybody im my guild is guetting the fucking appareance and jsut saying that is fairly easy with 6-7 trys much, but we (me and my cotank) are sitting on more than 100 trys and literally can't do shit because we just get swarmed to the point we cant do shit.

[Chrno]

i have 96% percentile on mythic until elisande (currently progressing) and cant meet the dps req. It's not about the dps reqs but the stupid points on the fight for some classes. For example as blood DK you can only dmg the eye with shadow dmg ¿Wtf? we have two attacks that do shadow dmg, one has 30 sec CD, the other is AoE. I'm not even counting Death's Caress as you will need like 10 DC to down a single eye -waste of resources-. Even using blood boil previously stored, if you dont crit once you need 3 blood boil to down an eye (you can store up to two blood boil). It's tuned for ToS gear i get it, but everybody im my guild is guetting the fucking appareance and jsut saying that is fairly easy with 6-7 trys much, but we (me and my cotank) are sitting on more than 100 trys and literally can't do shit because we just get swarmed to the point we cant do shit.

i didn't say it was tuned propperly, i get the frustration. I didn't complete it (yet) either.
I was merely responding to people saying that DPS was not something a tank should bother with. And that assumption imo is false

[Gilderoy]

Have any Guardian Druids done it since the change to the aura?

In addition, has any Druid completed this that doesn't have Luffa's?

[Deleted]

Have any Guardian Druids done it since the change to the aura?

In addition, has any Druid completed this that doesn't have Luffa's?

Some have, only with luffa's afaik tho.

[Rynin]

It seems like the boss has more health in the Prot Paladin version than any other. WTF

[Deliverer]

I mean, nothing in the first phase is tank related, it might as well be a dps challenge. If this is intended to show mastery as a tank, they failed miserably.

What is tanking to you? Because in this encounter there is a bit of everything a good tank deal with in hard encounters. Kiting, interrupting, CCing, using CDs and active mitigation to survive big hits from adds and boss abilities, timing your healing, dodging dangerous ground effects and ofc be able to play your class efficiently by maxing your dps. If you don't know how to push dps on your char it means you don't know how to play your class effectively.
Dps isn't everything it's part of the encounter to time your dps windows well without dieing but there is a lot more to it.

[Deleted]

My main is paladin and alt is Druid, in the 10 tries that I had enough shards for on my Druid I had a lot more success than on paladin, was able to get him to 20% on Druid but I have run out of shards now and don't intend to farm them on my alt, however even though it was hard I think it will be doable as paladin, but my best attempt was only 50% on paladin (13 total attempts, will be doing more tonight) 80m feels like too much damage for me to have to do is the main issue, unless velen is bugged and is meant to be doing more damage.

I tried a strat with Druid using incarnation and just smacking the boss with drums and was able to get him to 50% before anything really happened, but I found the eyes so much easier to deal with when I had galactic guardian, in conclusion it's definitely doable as Druid and probably doable as paladin, but I haven't seen what happens in p2 yet.

Edit: just to clarify with incarnation I was using moonkin affinity and have the thrash bracers, I wasn't standing in the pool.

[kiklion]

i didn't say it was tuned propperly, i get the frustration. I didn't complete it (yet) either.
I was merely responding to people saying that DPS was not something a tank should bother with. And that assumption imo is false

It's hilarious when people say a tank shouldn't be focusing on damage. Tanks always focused on damage and shit tanks who can't do dps now used to be shit tanks that couldn't hold threat. Only difference is before those tanks weren't ever taken anywhere because generating low threat meant the dps were hindered as well and had to hold back. Now they can at least get groups and practice to get better. Also now your threat is more easily measured as previously you only had to out threat the people you ran with. So semi shit tanks running with low dps people didn't know they were bad.

And there is more than dps in this challenge. Positioning, cd timings, interrupts, CC, kiting etc.

[Deleted]

What is tanking to you? Because in this encounter there is a bit of everything a good tank deal with in hard encounters. Kiting, interrupting, CCing, using CDs and active mitigation to survive big hits from adds and boss abilities, timing your healing, dodging dangerous ground effects and ofc be able to play your class efficiently by maxing your dps. If you don't know how to push dps on your char it means you don't know how to play your class effectively.
Dps isn't everything it's part of the encounter to time your dps windows well without dieing but there is a lot more to it.

Tanking to me is protecting/defending allies from danger, keeping them from harms way and using whatever tools we have to survive. In this challenge, we're not defending anything (Velen doesn't count) and our focus is to deal damage. As I said before, this challenge could just as well have been used for a damage dealer, as nothing about it is specific for tanks.

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It's hilarious when people say a tank shouldn't be focusing on damage. Tanks always focused on damage and shit tanks who can't do dps now used to be shit tanks that couldn't hold threat. Only difference is before those tanks weren't ever taken anywhere because generating low threat meant the dps were hindered as well and had to hold back. Now they can at least get groups and practice to get better. Also now your threat is more easily measured as previously you only had to out threat the people you ran with. So semi shit tanks running with low dps people didn't know they were bad.

And there is more than dps in this challenge. Positioning, cd timings, interrupts, CC, kiting etc.

A tanks damage shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things, it shouldn't be enough to make a difference, because in the end they are tanks, not damage dealers. You may call me whatever names comes to your mind, I don't care, if your focus is damage as a tank, then you are in my mind, awful.

Positioning? What is there to position? You're either on the boss or on the eyes, the eyes determine where you need to go so it's not up to you.
CD timings? The only thing that's dangerous in terms of damage is the arcane adds channel, which can be interrupted with arcane torrent, disorients, stuns or the circle heals from Velen.
Interrupts? The only thing to really interrupt is the boss' life drain, outside of the arcane adds which require aoe regardless.
CC? There isn't much of a reason to crowd control anything other than the arcane adds to interrupt their channel, which again can be done in a number of ways previously described.
Kiting? What is there to kite? The arcane adds channel?
Etc? Please go on.