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  1. #141
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun View Post
    No, you have to be pretty much incapable of caring for yourself in Sweden for it to be rape. Me having some beers with someone doens't make me incapable of consenting.
    Which isn't what the law was about, anyway. And regardless, Sweden isn't the sole arbiter of these things. No country is.


  2. #142
    lol nevermind, forgot I was trying not to comment on these

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    This has nothing whatsoever to do with my counterargument.

    Whether people think it's awesome or acceptable has nothing to do with it. Fact is that there is no general consensus in the US, in any state or even small community, that rape is okay. To the extent that there is, they are extremely small, hidden pockets of criminals. The way to solve that, of course, is to enforce the law.

    The law is a reflection of our culture. The law states that rape is illegal. This is not being opposed at all because everyone agrees rape is bad. When virtually everyone shares an opinion, that's culture. Fact is, a HUGE majority of Americans think rape is one of the most horrible thing you can do. Ergo, it's not a rape culture.
    You're making an argument against an argument that no one is making. No one is saying there's a significant contingent of people that thinks rape is ok or should be legal.

    The point is, what constitutes rape or to put it another way, what constitutes consent. The rape culture in America that people are referencing, have a very large view of what is considered consent. They don't understand or refuse to understand, consent is a very small amount of things.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by mayhem008 View Post
    rape culture isn't a thing...
    Pretty much this.

    There is no rape culture in the west.

  5. #145
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Secondly when people talk about "rape culture" it's not just about what you, Njorun, understand as rape. It's about the collective sum of acts which meet the criterion of being unwanted sexual acts performed by one person on another who does not consent to it. Rape culture can include things that don't actually meet the definition of rape, but share similar characteristics with rape (namely being sexual in nature and non-consensual): Eg groping a woman's breast, a man's testicles, or someone's ass without consent.
    "Rape culture is a sociological concept used to describe a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality."

    We have no societal attitudes in the west which makes it pervasive nor normalized. We have some small percentage of scumbags who do things but they do not define what is a societal attitude. It's not widely accepted. We probably have more nazis in Sweden than we have that kind of people, do you see people saying we have a nazi culture based on the few of them that exists? No. It's not accepted by society, they're shunned. Just as rape and other types of sexual assault is.
    Last edited by mmoc6608731cf5; 2017-04-05 at 02:55 PM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's exactly why your counterargument is wrong.

    If we passed a law saying that assaults that occurred on Wednesdays and Saturdays could not be considered "rape", then a girl getting dragged into the bushes by a masked stranger and taken against her will, on a Wednesday, wasn't raped. Even if the same act, on a Tuesday, would have been called rape.

    Rape culture, as a concept, isn't about thinking rape is "okay". It's about dismissing claims and saying "that's not rape". Any argument based on their clothing inviting the assault counts as such. Blaming her for getting so drunk she could be taken advantage of fits the bill. Defending date rape where she doesn't fight back hard enough for you to be "convinced" she wasn't consenting. Etc. It's about looking at a situation that others call "rape", and saying "no, that's normal".
    Okay, but we're not going to pass a law that rape can't occur on Wednesday and Saturday or whatever because we think it's absurd because we don't live in a rape culture.

    Saying "that's not rape" doesn't mean we think rape is okay or make excuses for it at all. If I eat some lemon dressing and a woman thinks it looks sexual for some completely stupid and bizarre reason and yells rape, and you rightly yell "What? That's not rape!" then you're not excusing rape culture. You're calling a woman out on bullshit.

    If refusing to believe a woman when she says she was raped because her evidence is flimsy or what she is describing isn't actually rape or even sexual at all is rape culture, then I guess courts in general are full of crime culture - because it is their job to determine the guilt of the victim beyond all doubt because they charge him.

    Since rape is a crime, we treat it under the criminal justice system, which means we presume innosence unless the crime can be proven.

    Finally, arguments like "her clothing invited it" does not hold up in court. Neither does violence if someone provokes you, by the way.

    The only thing that matters in the other circumstances is whether or not you, as the perpetrator, had any reasonable way of knowing she was not consenting willingly. If she's drunk, and you know it, and she didn't consent before but now does, and you take advantage of that, you're still a rapist, and any judge will judge you guilty.

    However, if she said all along she consented, then got drunk and you had sex, then it was not rape - because you didn't take advantage of alcohol to make her seem willing - she already seemed willing. Her regretting it the next morning is not rape. If she has communicated to you clearly that she does want sex and you assume that to be true, and then gives no indication otherwise, it is simply not rape. Depending on the circumstances it could be other crimes, however, which are covered in their own set of laws, and then rape may be tacked on.

    E.g. if someone says yes to have sex, and you knock her out, and then have sex, then that's battery, assault, negligence, and propably rape - but a pretty stupid case of rape as there as no reason to commit rape since she was already consenting before you did all the other stuff.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I said drunken sex IS NOT rape... so whats your point?
    My point is that you are not the one to decide that. If the deffinition of rape culture builds itself around the idea that people will say it was not rape when others say it was, then the others will say you are a part of a group of people who accepts some forms of rape, and therefore part of a rape culture.

    So you are making it easier for people to argue that there is a rape culture.

    Also... From what I gather, the view of the law isn't relevant here. People arguing that there is a rape culture will say the law isn't up to date with current rape definitions. There is an idea of what rape is, that can change from person to person, and then there is a law trying to build clear definitions for enforcement purposes. Laws aren't perfect.
    Last edited by LMuhlen; 2017-04-05 at 02:59 PM.

  8. #148
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Okay, but we're not going to pass a law that rape can't occur on Wednesday and Saturday or whatever because we think it's absurd because we don't live in a rape culture.
    You know whenever rape laws are amended and there's some segment of society that says "whoah, that's crazy, now X is called 'rape' too?" That's the exact same argument in reverse, which was the point of my analogy.

    Saying "that's not rape" doesn't mean we think rape is okay or make excuses for it at all.
    When most of society agrees that it is rape, since that's what the law states, that's literally what you're doing. And that's a generic "you"; I haven't seen that you've made such an argument here. But there are users who have, which is why this isn't a hypothetical.


  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Intoxication, in many places, is firm grounds for establishing a lack of consent. Just by way of example; https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs...1000/1002.html

    You trying to redefine those facts and pretend that this kind of rape is "okay" is exactly what "rape culture" looks like.
    Wow those are archaic. Virtually all the codes you listed addressing rape require the defendant to be male and the victim to be female.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You're making an argument against an argument that no one is making. No one is saying there's a significant contingent of people that thinks rape is ok or should be legal.

    The point is, what constitutes rape or to put it another way, what constitutes consent. The rape culture in America that people are referencing, have a very large view of what is considered consent. They don't understand or refuse to understand, consent is a very small amount of things.
    I quoted Endus. Obviously he was making that argument. If he wasn't trying to, then he should write more clearly.

    What constitutes consent is pretty clear. Did she give consent while fully aware? If yes, is there any reasonable reason to believe she might have withdrawn that consent were she able to?

    That's it. It's not terribly complicated.

    This whole idea that consent should be communicated ongoing is utterly absurd. If that's what you're railing against, then I'm just going to write you off as an idiot. There is absolutely no reason to believe she a sober woman should have to continue saying "I consent" all throughout a sexual encounter. It's going to put both parties out of the mood, it's going to be redundant in the vast majority of cases thank goodness, and frankly it's just completely impossible, which you would know if you've ever had sex in your life.

    When most of society agrees that it is rape, since that's what the law states, that's literally what you're doing. And that's a generic "you"; I haven't seen that you've made such an argument here. But there are users who have, which is why this isn't a hypothetical.
    Was using a generic "you" indeed. It's easier to tell in speech than in writing. I'm not saying you've sad that, sorry for the confusion.

    If most of society agrees that something is rape which the law says is not rape, then that's the straight opposite of rape culture. The culture agrees it is rape, and the law hasn't caught up yet, but it probably will.

    We have a rape culture if and only if there are things which are definitely rape under the definition of the word, but which is not considered rape by people at large for some reason.

    For instance, forcing yourself on another woman because she is scantily clad. In the west, we definitely agree that's rape. However, in some Muslim countries, it is not considered rape - even though we can all agree that a man forced himself on a woman to have sex against her will. THAT would be rape culture.

    There are places in the world with rape culture, as I just highlighted. The US just isn't one of those places in any general sense. Maybe you'll find it in very small pockets, but as a general epidemic the claim is absurd.
    Last edited by Ishayu; 2017-04-05 at 03:11 PM.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMuhlen View Post
    My point is that you are not the one to decide that. If the deffinition of rape culture builds itself around the idea that people will say it was not rape when others say it was, then the others will say you are a part of a group of people who accepts some forms of rape, and therefore part of a rape culture.

    So you are making it easier for people to argue that there is a rape culture.
    *facedesk*

    There are very clear legal definitions for rape... and being drunk IS NOT any of them.

    Being drunk has fukk all to do with rape in legal terms... absolutely fukk all.

    Rape is defined by actions and intent.

    It is this fact that is totally ignored by regressive SJW fukkwits. None of their 'studies' take this into account... all theyve done is totally re-define what they want rape to be. Theyve taken a word and given it massive reach into all sorts of areas where its never been.

    Its this change of definition coupled with the statement that we have a 'culture' normalising rape that everyone finds so academically wrong.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Intoxication, in many places, is firm grounds for establishing a lack of consent. Just by way of example; https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs...1000/1002.html

    You trying to redefine those facts and pretend that this kind of rape is "okay" is exactly what "rape culture" looks like.
    What does this matter anyway? Just because some place thinks it's rape, it does not mean it should be called rape. We could go look at arab countries and look does martial rape count as rape and notice that it does not. However, since definition of rape is kinda simple with "non consensual sex" so in these cases it would be rape.

    Oh and i looked at law
    3. The effect of (a/an) (intoxicating/anesthetic/controlled) substance prevented the woman from resisting;
    While I'm not lawyer, but this seems to me at least that this talks about totally different cases. This law is about person (men cant be raped ofc /s) incapable of resisting ie. being so drunk you are passing out or passed out. This is completely different from when rest of people are talking about being drunk. They mean person who's able to function relatively ok (talking moving, actually activelry pursying sex etc.). Basically this either boils down to misundestanding of position or you pushing false equivalency: being intoxicated/drunk is not same as being so drunk you are passing out/ passed out drunk.

    Is what I'm suggesting not reasonable or is this another case of rape culture? I don't think being tipsy or somewhat drunk should make you incapable of consenting just because you might fuck someone a bit uglier than you would do sober.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I havent seen a single fact posted in this thread from those defending this "rape culture"
    And I haven't seen a single fact from those denying "rape culture"

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    All i see are biased ideological statements, no facts at all.
    The concept of "rape culture" is all about ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    It was you who made the bold statments that i questioned and debunked.
    Nah, you simply dismissed and denied what I said. You never put together any kind of actual argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    It is you who hasnt bought a single fact to the table, only opinion.
    Neither have you. At least I acknowledged, and even accept, right from the start that neither of us are likely to change our opinions. Hence why I said I see no value in any debate. And yet you keep trying to get me to start debating you, without ever actually showing what you want to debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    For your reference here is your first comment to any of my posts on this thread...

    All i see is a personal attack right off the bat... totally childish on every level.
    It's very disingenuous of you to post my first response to you without looking at what I was responding to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I think we all FULLY understand whats being said here... we just totally disagree with this conspiracy theory.

    There is absolutely ZERO evidence to show a rape culture exists. And these fukkwit SJW assholes have totally changed the definition of "rape" to further their own ideology.

    As i said, we are fully versed in this lie and we refuse to agree with it...
    Sorry buddy but the 'tone' of my response was totally not inappropriate given what YOU started, complete with:

    "No facts" - you just made a bunch of baseless assertions
    "just namecalling..." I quote "fukkwit SJW assholes"


    I will fully admit that my tone was condescending, by effectively calling you childish (which btw tends to only offend when it's actually true . And it was intentionally so because IMO it's the most direct way of telling you why I believe you and I cannot have a rational discussion on this topic - because based on what you are saying I have to conclude that you lack the life experience to understand where I am coming from.

    And please, by all means, if I am wrong, and you are actually an adult with the kind of life experiences I describe, then I'll retract my assertion that you still need to grow up, and accept that you and I will never be able to have a rational debate on this topic because that's just the way you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    But hey... you and your 'facts' give you the moral highground *facedesk*
    Keep hitting that desk man. I am sure it's going to help eventually.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Intoxication, in many places, is firm grounds for establishing a lack of consent. Just by way of example; https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs...1000/1002.html

    You trying to redefine those facts and pretend that this kind of rape is "okay" is exactly what "rape culture" looks like.
    The problem here is not "what is considered rape or not" it's the level of drunkness required to reach the point where consent doesn't make sense anymore. Because please, let's not kid ourselves, the amount of drunk girls who give consent one night then regret or don't even remember it the next day is bigger than you think. Now, did they get raped? By definition of the law both yes and no since nothing indicates at what point giving consent if even REAL. Should there be SOBER CONSENT and DRUNK CONSENT, then we all go to seminars to learn how to spot the real consent? Then people will play in that grey area where it's impossible to tell the truth and we can only give benefit of the doubt.

    "Well she said she didn't give real consent, she said yes but she was pretty drunk so if she had one less beer she MAYBE would have said no, based on how she's feeling today and not the night of the event."

    Should we just criminalize sexual intercourse between drunk unmarried people? You drank, you had sex, you're a criminal?

    Is she too drunk? Just drunk enough? Should I ask her now before she drinks more?

    There is a far bigger problem in defining what consent is and not what rape is, cuz people who claim rape culture exists are the same who can give consent without meaning it.

    She said no or resisted physically: that's rape.
    She's too drunk to move or talk coherently: that's rape.
    She's pretty drunk and seems into it atm but might regret it the next day: ???????????????? She seems into it, is that consent? Is that the alcohol talking? Some girls act like that sober, how are people supposed to know?
    Should guys be gentlemen and stop right there, in fear of being called a rapist the next day even if she seems upset that you refuse her? Is she really upset or is that alcohol talking again? Some girls act like that sober.

    There are some clear signs and there's a grey area that both parties can take advantage of, can't just take one side.

    PS. This post was written assuming the example of rape is male assaulting female to make it easier to read, the opposite situation also happens and is very real.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The dude I replied to used the same tone on me, so tit for tat. And quite frankly I don't care to sugarcoat my opinion. In all honesty, telling the guy he holds the stance he does due to being young is far more flattering that telling him it's because he's stupid.

    The point of my comment was actually to say that I have no interest in "debating" this point with who is not open to debate on the topic, but rather an acceptance that I am not going to change his mind regardless of whether I am right or not.
    Precisely, tit for tat. So is the part in bold. And from the post I quoted there I don't really get "whether I am right or not", but "I am right, period."


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    What needs to change is the culture of assuming that because we don't know if the other person actually wants sex or not, then we should be given the benefit of the doubt when accusations of rape happen after the fact. If there is doubt, the rational response is to assume the answer is no, not yes. And if you're going to choose to take a risk, then you should accept the possibility of a criminal conviction later.
    If lack of consent can be proven in court they already accept criminal conviction. Well, more like they are forced to accept it by the legal system, but it's par for the course for most crimes and we don't exactly live in genocide culture because of that. So, where's the problem?


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    If you guys want to know what rape culture actually is, it's this: It's simply placing the desire to have some kind of sexual interaction with another person ahead of concern for what they actually want.
    All criminals place their desires ahead of the concerns of their victims. If this was the threshold we also live in wire fraud culture or vehicular manslaughter culture. But all more widely used definitions of rape culture necessitate normalization and sometimes also trivialization of rape. What you described does not do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    You people demanding proof don't even realise that your comments here are all the evidence one would ever need to establish that it is alive and well.
    And atheists prove god.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2017-04-05 at 04:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    *facedesk*

    There are very clear legal definitions for rape... and being drunk IS NOT any of them.

    Being drunk has fukk all to do with rape in legal terms... absolutely fukk all.

    Rape is defined by actions and intent.

    It is this fact that is totally ignored by regressive SJW fukkwits. None of their 'studies' take this into account... all theyve done is totally re-define what they want rape to be. Theyve taken a word and given it massive reach into all sorts of areas where its never been.

    Its this change of definition coupled with the statement that we have a 'culture' normalising rape that everyone finds so academically wrong.
    Again, IMO, you are just making their case easier. If the laws say it is not rape something they do consider rape, it is clearly a rape culture for them. Your laws say it's ok to rape because they say that it is not really rape. Exactly what they are saying a rape culture is.

    Hope your desk is ok.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    --Human sexual interaction is a complex process and getting drunk is something that many people will do with the specific intent of lowering their own inhibitions in order to achieve some sexual outcome. The problem is that sexual predators will often take sexual advantage of a drunk person in a way that is against the wishes of what that person wanted before allowing themselves to get drunk, and as it turns out, beyond what they would have accepted had they been sober.

    Getting drunk is not a carte blanche assent for other people to do whatever they want with you. There always needs to be a rational basis for performing sexual acts with a drunk person beyond "they were too drunk to realise what they were getting themselves into". And yes, there are many times where it will be exceptionally difficult for people to know exactly what the other person actually wants.

    What needs to change is the culture of assuming that because we don't know if the other person actually wants sex or not, then we should be given the benefit of the doubt when accusations of rape happen after the fact. If there is doubt, the rational response is to assume the answer is no, not yes. And if you're going to choose to take a risk, then you should accept the possibility of a criminal conviction later.

    If you guys want to know what rape culture actually is, it's this: It's simply placing the desire to have some kind of sexual interaction with another person ahead of concern for what they actually want. You people demanding proof don't even realise that your comments here are all the evidence one would ever need to establish that it is alive and well.

    - - - Updated - - -
    - -
    So basically youa re saying it's rape culture is "wanting to have sex with someone without knowing if they want to have sex with you". That's just baffling. You can't know ahead of the time wheter they want to have sex or not. You might be able to guess, but there's no hurt in asking. Unless you actually commit rape, you are not a rapist nor you are pushing for rape ffs.

    There's nothing wrong with trying to persuade people into having sex either. You can always say no to that. Unless you are dehumanizing the target and think they don't have their own agency to be able to say no.

  18. #158
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And I haven't seen a single fact from those denying "rape culture"
    Well i argue that there is a "cocaine culture" across society... no proof im just making that statement and everyone must believe it as fact.

    Basically the responsibility is on the ACCUSER to prove that your "rape culture" exists... where is your proof?

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Hitchens Razor


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The concept of "rape culture" is all about ideology.
    So we agree on something

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethris View Post
    No, because you consented. But this doesn't bode well for her current relationship. The fact that she wants you at her wedding means that she still has feelings, and possibly regrets. How many other people will be attending who have banged the bride? I would be careful of her, and her fiancée should be worried for the stability of his present situation.
    Dude. We have been friends for over 17 years since we been together. I am her second oldest friend she's still in touch with, and we are the only ones living on the same continent/country.

    They have been dating for 6 years, their situation is very stable.

    People who dated can be friends later down the road.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    However, if she said all along she consented, then got drunk and you had sex, then it was not rape - because you didn't take advantage of alcohol to make her seem willing - she already seemed willing. Her regretting it the next morning is not rape. If she has communicated to you clearly that she does want sex and you assume that to be true, and then gives no indication otherwise, it is simply not rape. Depending on the circumstances it could be other crimes, however, which are covered in their own set of laws, and then rape may be tacked on.
    I agree with your entire post but I only quote this part to ask a question about this specific situation.
    She says she wants sex before getting drunk, but nothing stops her from changing her mind during the evening before actually having sex. Is it rape then? If she said no before sex and making it clear that she changed her mind then yes it's obviously raped, but if she got so drunk she can't really say no or resist but she already gave consent and can't clearly communicate her change of mind because she's so drunk, is it rape then?

    By law it is not since she gave consent.
    By logic (while knowing everything that factors into the situation) it is rape since we know she wanted to change her mind.
    In the eye of the guy it is not rape, she said she wanted to have sex and never resisted or said no.
    In her eyes, she got raped cuz she didn't really want to after all but wasn't able to tell him cuz she's too drunk.
    But the guy really likes her and would never do anything to hurt her, but all he knew was that she told him earlier she wants to have sex, that's all the information he has.
    Who's right, who's wrong?

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