United States of Europe

[Mormolyce]

Give or take a 100 years.

It's been happening for at least 50 years.

[Morgarw]

I stopped writing in this forum since when a large number of germans with their classic superiority complex went in.
In fact, here is full of Aryan members (with full ego too, but this the normality for them) with basically 0 people posting from important countries like France, Italy or Spain. Not worth join the discussion.

[Macaquerie]

Funny, I'm as Greek as they come and none of those things. Quite the opposite, I'm a lot more productive and successful than most of the fat, uneducated, stupid Americans I've encountered.

Funny how stereotyping works.



****NOTE TO MODS****
Before anyone decides to mod me, I was merely answering a stereotype with a stereotype. As I've been modded in the past while the initiated party has not for the exact same reason I just wanted to get out ahead and point out that this poster came out of nowhere with the nation bashing.

It is not idle nation bashing, I was just pointing out that certainly this idea that Greek people feel that being in Greece entitles them to carry on doing things the "Greek way" without unwanted foreign influence inevitably leads to their economy being less competitive and less productive than they could be. Greek people are perfectly capable of being hard working and efficient IF they had the right incentives, the current setup simply does not give them those incentives, and the evidence is clear as day for anyone to see.

Sure this would mean that the culture would need to shift to prioritize "Anglo-Germanic" values like productivity, competition, and climbing the corporate ladder over more traditionally Greek priorities like family, food, and leisure, and this would lead to life being more stressful, less enjoyable, and less Greek overall. But unless people are willing to accept a reduction of living standards and general societal stagnation, then that is what they must do to survive.

[Stelio Kontos]

It is not idle nation bashing, I was just pointing out that certainly this idea that Greek people feel that being in Greece entitles them to carry on doing things the "Greek way" without unwanted foreign influence inevitably leads to their economy being less competitive and less productive than they could be. Greek people are perfectly capable of being hard working and efficient IF they had the right incentives, the current setup simply does not give them those incentives, and the evidence is clear as day for anyone to see.

Sure this would mean that the culture would need to shift to prioritize "Anglo-Germanic" values like productivity, competition, and climbing the corporate ladder over more traditionally Greek priorities like family, food, and leisure, and this would lead to life being more stressful, less enjoyable, and less Greek overall. But unless people are willing to accept a reduction of living standards and general societal stagnation, then that is what they must do to survive.

I'm not Anglo-Germanic at all in my outlook or upbringing. Yet I am none of the pejoratives you used to describe an entire people.

Furthermore, I don't understand why you're choosing to zero in on Greeks when this topic is about the entire continent. Do you think low enough of the entire ethnic group to just go ahead and derail a thread just to talk about how lazy and incapable you think we all are?

[Macaquerie]

I'm not Anglo-Germanic at all in my outlook or upbringing. Yet I am none of the pejoratives you used to describe an entire people.

Furthermore, I don't understand why you're choosing to zero in on Greeks when this topic is about the entire continent. Do you think low enough of the entire ethnic group to just go ahead and derail a thread just to talk about how lazy and incapable you think we all are?

I was just trying to make a general point about how romanticizing a national culture can lead countries to fall behind economically, with Greece being one example of this. It's understandable if you chose to take it a personally as singling out a specific country for criticism, but there are of course plenty of other countries that I could have substituted in there and my point would be just as valid. Yeah any type of broad strokes statement will be contradicted by individual examples and anecdotal evidence, but looking at the big picture I think that my position is clearly supported by the facts.

[Hiricine]

The only way the EU was able to exist in the first place was by deceiving the populations of its member states that it would be much less intrusive than it was. The idea that there would be an even stronger government would never fly then or today.

[Stelio Kontos]

I was just trying to make a general point about how romanticizing a national culture can lead countries to fall behind economically, with Greece being one example of this. It's understandable if you chose to take it a personally as singling out a specific country for criticism, but there are of course plenty of other countries that I could have substituted in there and my point would be just as valid. Yeah any type of broad strokes statement will be contradicted by individual examples and anecdotal evidence, but looking at the big picture I think that my position is clearly supported by the facts.

"Big Picture" thinking is also what tends to get Anglo-Germanic cultures into trouble, particularly when it comes to assigning traits and value to us lesser folk who God cursed to live outside the Promised Land of NW Europe.

[Macaquerie]

"Big Picture" thinking is also what tends to get Anglo-Germanic cultures into trouble, particularly when it comes to assigning traits and value to us lesser folk who God cursed to live outside the Promised Land of NW Europe.

The thing is, whether you're in the USA, India, China, Africa, or anywhere else, you'll find plenty of people eager to learn English, adopt the norms and customs of international business, connect with foreign partners, and generally conduct themselves in the "Anglo-German" style so that they can succeed in business and make a decent living for their families. For most of these people, the cultural gap between their home country and NW Europe is immeasurably vast, far greater than anything that a Greek or Spaniard would experience, but still they bite the bullet, make the necessary adjustments, and do what it takes to survive. In fact, most of these countries were former colonies that labored under British or German rule and despised Europeans as cruel and exploitative oppressors, but nevertheless when it comes to doing business will swallow their pride and carry on doing what needs to be done. Is it really too much to expect Europeans to do the same?

[Stelio Kontos]

Is it really too much to expect Europeans to do the same?

Leave that up to a person to decide.

Wanting everyone to look like you and act like you is what caused so much of the imperialism and genocide of the last few centuries. Many of those people are like me, they learn English and work within the Western system because it's the dominant one of the era and they do it for the money, not because of any love or passion for the culture.

I can say that with certainty for me. I'm in the US only because of the opportunities being the current super-power provides. If that mantle was in China or Russia, then I'd learn Mandarin or Russian and remember not one thing about Anglo-German culture.

Just like all the people used and killed by Anglo-Germans through history, they too are just a means to an end. One that luckily doesn't need to involve slavery or genocide.

[Macaquerie]

Leave that up to a person to decide.

Wanting everyone to look like you and act like you is what caused so much of the imperialism and genocide of the last few centuries. Many of those people are like me, they learn English and work within the Western system because it's the dominant one of the era and they do it for the money, not because of any love or passion for the culture.

I can say that with certainty for me. I'm in the US only because of the opportunities being the current super-power provides. If that mantle was in China or Russia, then I'd learn Mandarin or Russian and remember not one thing about Anglo-German culture.

Just like all the people used and killed by Anglo-Germans through history, they too are just a means to an end. One that luckily doesn't need to involve slavery or genocide.

If Tanzania decided that its cultural integrity was more important than economic development and that it didn't need to play by Western European rules, millions of people would simply starve to death and the rest of the world would not care. If Greece does it, then at the very least it's a news item that draws attention and there are interested parties who are willing to work toward a solution. As Europeans you have closer ties to the great economic powers of the world than most, and you should take advantage of this rather than spitting in their face and demanding that they respect your snowflake status.

[Stelio Kontos]

If Tanzania decided that its cultural integrity was more important than economic development and that it didn't need to play by Western European rules, millions of people would simply starve to death and the rest of the world would not care. If Greece does it, then at the very least it's a news item that draws attention and there are interested parties who are willing to work toward a solution. As Europeans you have closer ties to the great economic powers of the world than most, and you should take advantage of this rather than spitting in their face and demanding that they respect your snowflake status.

Not demanding anything. Just don't feel like living within a culture alien to my own. That's not being a snowflake, it's just wanting to maintain my identity.

Your arguments might work on a Tanzanian too. Not with me. Greeks earned the right to keep their culture due to our accomplishments, regardless of how long ago. I'm not gonna indulge you any further. Our argument has derailed the thread. Either we can discuss the topic at hand, or we can cease this dialogue. Those are the two options in front of us.

[Cybran]

You should have kept it that way.

He is right. People post articles and economic studies and people like @Slant, @Ravenblade, @Wildtree and @Bakis show up and start calling everyone who is not Germanic lazy and dirty.

Their countries got billions poured into them to stop them turning Socialist and siding with USSR during the 50s and 60s, but they think they have decent wages because they are better than everyone else.

[munkeyinorbit]

Berlin.

English.

Fixed that for you. Might as well use the international language that makes sense.

[Cybran]

If Tanzania decided that its cultural integrity was more important than economic development and that it didn't need to play by Western European rules, millions of people would simply starve to death and the rest of the world would not care.

Tanzania wasn't the basis for European cultural and philosophical enlightenment. As such their cultural integrity matters far less than Greece's.

[Deleted]

Us wouldnt let us become one. Not in their interest to create another unified power toncompetenwith. Same for russia. They prefer to destabilize to make sure iT never comes to that

[Ravenblade]

He is right. People post articles and economic studies and people like @Slant, @Ravenblade, @Wildtree and @Bakis show up and start calling everyone who is not Germanic lazy and dirty.

Their countries got billions poured into them to stop them turning Socialist and siding with USSR during the 50s and 60s, but they think they have decent wages because they are better than everyone else.

One problem with that though: My country was the DDR. It never stopped siding with the USSR, well, until they were let go... I really don't think you can seriously go as far as retroactively lumping them in the same country because the East and West were divided but sovereign political entities which both de facto ceased to exist after 1990.

My memory is also a bit hazy and right now I am lazy Germanic but I don't think I ever had negative comments about someone based on his ethnic origin because I find that using single attributes for a group of people is an extremely lazy and sometimes also dirty thing to do.

[Slant]

He is right. People post articles and economic studies and people like @Slant, @Ravenblade, @Wildtree and @Bakis show up and start calling everyone who is not Germanic lazy and dirty.

Their countries got billions poured into them to stop them turning Socialist and siding with USSR during the 50s and 60s, but they think they have decent wages because they are better than everyone else.

When did you ever post a credible source or even an economic study? :P

- - - Updated - - -

I can understand where he is coming from. The EU was sold to us as a cure for all of our ailments. Ten years later, we are the poorest nation in the bloc. However, I am seeing more and more people go on vacations abroad. I am seeing lots of young people start their own businesses and I am seeing a lot of foreign firms come here over the past 4 years (give or take). It's a complex issue.

Of course it is. Nobody ever said it was easy. But then, having to deal with the EU as an outsider is probably worse.

[whywhatwhowhenhow]

It wouldn't happen. America wouldn't allow it. They couldn't stand not being the most powerful nation on the planet. Hence why they keep us apart with constant wars in the middle east.

World war 3 would happen.

[Cybran]

When did you ever post a credible source or even an economic study?

http://www.cer.org.uk/insights/eus-s...-or-divergence

The differences in per capita income across the EU are actually not much greater than across states in the US, so long as we exclude Bulgaria and Romania. But the US is a fully federal country with significant fiscal transfers through the tax, health and social security systems. The EU relies on labour mobility and structural funds to help bring about convergence. Labour mobility enables workers to boost their living standards by moving to wealthier states, but risks concentrating skilled workers and capital in the core, compounding fiscal pressures in poorer member-states. Structural funds are indispensable, but are small compared to the transfers within individual member-states or the US. There is little doubt the single market increases the size of the pie. The question is whether the lack of convergence in living standards is sustainable politically: can national governments continue to sell the single market to their voters if it appears some countries are benefitting more than others and if large differences in living standards persist? The EU might need to transfer more money between its member-states if popular confidence in the single market is not to erode. And it will certainly need to do so if the poorer member-states are to accept a deepening of the single market.

https://euobserver.com/economic/125125

Twice yesterday. You ignored both and went about saying how the continent owes you something.

[Slant]

Twice yesterday. You ignored both and went about saying how the continent owes you something.

I usually ignore your posts, because you make ridiculous anti-German claims. So while the study may have accurate points, your conclusion usually is pretty shit. It's you personally, Cybran. Not the study. I simply don't respect you on a personal level. Because why would I? I'd hate to disappoint you. As a member of the one true master race, I have to treat you like the dirty peasant that you obviously are begging to be. Where would we be if you suddenly had no reason for your bitching and whining... :P

But you're trying to make an argument here, so I took a look at your study. Which says:

To a significant extent, the convergence between the poorest EU-15 countries and the richest of the countries that acceded to the EU in 2004 reflects the terrible performance of the poorest EU-15 economies, which has also dragged down the EU-15 average as a whole. For the last decade, per capita EU-15 incomes have been largely stagnant, although this masks big differences between countries. Had EU per capita incomes risen at a normal pace – 1.0-1.5 per cent per year – the central and eastern countries would have managed much less convergence. But this is not all of it: living standards in Central and Eastern Europe have also risen relatively strongly. They owe much of their income convergence to high levels of foreign direct investment, which has brought them into predominantly German supply chains, and driven rapid export growth.

How about that... you're quoting me a study that basically says what I've tried to bludgeon into your head for the past couple years already. We must be doing a shite job at being the master race in Germany, because obviously, we're actually being helpful to your economy. For a nazi nation, this is quite the shitshow. We should be treating you like subhumans, yet here we are... raising your living standards. We're doing it wrong, I guess. Let's see what else I can find...

The IMF only forecasts per capita income at purchasing power parities exchange rates for the EU as a whole rather than just the EU-15. This amplifies the degree of convergence by including the poorer post-communist economies: their inclusion lowers the average. However, because the economies of these countries are relatively small, the difference between the EU-15 average and the EU is not huge, so using EU-28 data as opposed to EU-15 data still gives us a good idea of the likely trends. Convergence between the South and East will continue, Germany will remain considerably wealthier than the other big EU-15 economies, but some of the wealthy smaller EU-15 economies will face problems.

So, the top dog is going to remain the top dog. Everyone knew that's not going to change unless you change the nature of the game. But hey, what's this? Eastern and Western Europe are converging? That's a plus for Bulgaria, isn't it? Living like Italians is probably better than living like a Soviet Vassal state, so it's a plus I'd say.

Who's losing is actually the wealthy small countries. Sweden and the like... but they can take it, they're big boys. And they know how markets work, sometimes you win some, sometimes you lose some.

Something else? Oh yes, this bit...

#EU might need to transfer more money between members if confidence in #SingleMarket not to erode

In conclusion, within the EU-15 there is little evidence of living standards converging as countries adopt best-practice from wealthier states and capital is deployed to where it can be used most productively. Indeed, there is some evidence of agglomeration effects centred on Germany, Benelux, the Nordics and Austria. The IMF expects a number of these economies – Austria, Belgium and Finland – to slow significantly over the next 5 years, but these are only forecasts; they may or may not turn out to be accurate. There is evidence of catch-up in the Central and Eastern European member-states, with the best performing overhauling the weakest EU-15 ones – Greece and Portugal – and on course to catch Italy within five years, at least at PPP exchange rates. But this must be seen against the unprecedentedly bad performance of the Greek, Italian and Portuguese economies.

The differences in per capita income across the EU are actually not much greater than across states in the US, so long as we exclude Bulgaria and Romania. But the US is a fully federal country with significant fiscal transfers through the tax, health and social security systems. The EU relies on labour mobility and structural funds to help bring about convergence. Labour mobility enables workers to boost their living standards by moving to wealthier states, but risks concentrating skilled workers and capital in the core, compounding fiscal pressures in poorer member-states. Structural funds are indispensable, but are small compared to the transfers within individual member-states or the US. There is little doubt the single market increases the size of the pie. The question is whether the lack of convergence in living standards is sustainable politically: can national governments continue to sell the single market to their voters if it appears some countries are benefitting more than others and if large differences in living standards persist? The EU might need to transfer more money between its member-states if popular confidence in the single market is not to erode. And it will certainly need to do so if the poorer member-states are to accept a deepening of the single market.

I would sign that. All of it. It's what I've been saying all the time. But to do something like that, you need a EU fiscal policy. EU taxation, EU budgeting, EU solidarity money transfer (we've done it in Germany for 70 years, works like a charm). But to do that, Bulgaria would absolutely have to give up fiscal authority to the EU. There's not a snowball's chance in hell we're going to let them do the taxation and money spreading. :P