Horde and Alliance, Well that was pointless

[micwini]

But what would the goal/motivation behind the dungeons/raids be? If there were threats on a Legion/Old God scale present, the faction war taking center stage would be incredibly stupid.
But how would you handle the Horde being the official losers of the Xpac? In Cata Horde and Alliance both won some battles, so it wasn't a big issue. In MoP you have the Horde player rallying behind the rebellion, but you can't have that storyline every xpac.

Don't know if you played cata but the 1-60 was like this: If you played horde, you won at the end of every zone. If you were Alliance you were in defeat at the end of each zone. EACH ZONE.

How would I handle them being losers? Defeat Sylvanas, she goes into hiding, maybe come back later. Gallywix dead. Lor'themar defecting to the Alliance. Tense peace with Baine. Alliance get all their lost ground back. I.E Eastern kingdoms is now fully Alliance owned.
Kappa 123

im not a story teller, but if we could just kill their leader or permanently defeat their leader it would be fine. Rest of em give up like cowards (just like broken shore)

[Swalload]

I'm still waiting for real, story driven, impactful Horde VS Alliance content.






I'm stupid

[Aquamonkey]

Azeroth is stronger united divided. It's just like that age-old saying, "A bundle of sticks is harder to break than an individual stick, but not as hard as a bunch of sticks trying to break each other."

[Friendlyimmolation]

Don't know if you played cata but the 1-60 was like this: If you played horde, you won at the end of every zone. If you were Alliance you were in defeat at the end of each zone. EACH ZONE.

How would I handle them being losers? Defeat Sylvanas, she goes into hiding, maybe come back later. Gallywix dead. Lor'themar defecting to the Alliance. Tense peace with Baine. Alliance get all their lost ground back. I.E Eastern kingdoms is now fully Alliance owned.
Kappa 123

im not a story teller, but if we could just kill their leader or permanently defeat their leader it would be fine. Rest of em give up like cowards (just like broken shore)

some of that stuff would never happen. The only reason he ever wanted to go to the Alliance is dead. The forsaken would turn lordaeron into a blighted hell if they figured out they would lose. The tauren aren't going to strike a peace with the Alliance and leave Orgrimmar alone etc.

Tldr, blood elves would spit in the face of the Alliance and Forsaken aren't going to lose Lordaeron, Tauren aren't cowards.


All this QQ about Horde favortism and Alliance still finds things to cry about. You raided Orgrimmar and that obviously somehow doesn't count.

[mizeri]

i was hoping for more about what sylvanas and genn was up to.

[Deleted]

Horde died in MoP anyway, kinda ironic they are being led by the undead now.

[Friendlyimmolation]

i was hoping for more about what sylvanas and genn was up to.

I would hope it will be expanded on before the xpac ends.

[Thage]

And also because the Alliance just wasn't capable of that. If Varian pulled his sword, all alliance leaders die that day and most Horde leaders as well.

Who says it had to be violent? Varian was already in talks with Lor'themar about getting Silvermoon to defect before Jaina screwed the pooch on that one. Varian could have spoken with the Horde leaders and offered them a long-term solution by folding them into the Alliance, especially since the Alliance player character should logically have informed him (and Vol'jin, for Horde player characters) about Wrathion's vision vis a vis impending Burning Legion invasion. They could have used the intervening time to strengthen their ties and get their troops used to working together through war games (oh look, BGs remain lore-relevant and same-faction/mercenary BGs gain lore basis) and establishing clear, guarded trade routes, and the Broken Shore would have been greatly mitigated (it still would have been a disaster, but we'd be walking away with clear channels of communication between the Horde and Alliance in this fantasy universe where the lore characters don't take stupid pills to shill the unending faction war, so the Alliance would have known the Horde got flanked and overrun rather than just ollied-out at the earliest opportunity).

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i was hoping for more about what sylvanas and genn was up to.

That will probably be touched on once we're done in Argus, knowing that Blizzard plans on bridging expansions more smoothly like the last couple.

[Easo]

I will play a devil's advocate here - we are facing increasingly more powerful and dangerous enemies. They do not care about some azerothian's allegiances or race, they are out to get us all. We can barely keep up with the said enemies when united, often by basically mirracles and crapload of sacrifice from all sides. So, in short, it is becoming more and more retarded to try to kill eachother now.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I will play a devil's advocate here - we are facing increasingly more powerful and dangerous enemies. They do not care about some azerothian's allegiances or race, they are out to get us all. We can barely keep up with the said enemies when united, often by basically mirracles and crapload of sacrifice from all sides. So, in short, it is becoming more and more retarded to try to kill eachother now.

We don't need a "rawr kill alliance/horde" motivation every xpac, we don't however need the factions to merge into one. differences are good.

[corebit]

The problem is that Blizzard has painted themselves in a corner. In order to attract the PVE raider crowd, they have to come up with even bigger threats with each expansion. Each threat has to be more dire than the last.

That's why the people who defend the notion Alliance and Horde must unite for the common good, forget the fact that as long as PVE exists, these threats will never end, and if there isn't one Blizzard will manufacture it out of thin air. Today it's the Legion, tomorrow it's the Void Lords, and the day after it's something else. So at no point in time will the conflict between the Alliance and Horde ever be justified.

[Deleted]

Don't know if you played cata but the 1-60 was like this: If you played horde, you won at the end of every zone. If you were Alliance you were in defeat at the end of each zone. EACH ZONE.

How would I handle them being losers? Defeat Sylvanas, she goes into hiding, maybe come back later. Gallywix dead. Lor'themar defecting to the Alliance. Tense peace with Baine. Alliance get all their lost ground back. I.E Eastern kingdoms is now fully Alliance owned.
Kappa 123

im not a story teller, but if we could just kill their leader or permanently defeat their leader it would be fine. Rest of em give up like cowards (just like broken shore)

Oh, I thought you were interested in actual discussion about the content of a faction war xpac. My mistake.

The problem is that Blizzard has painted themselves in a corner. In order to attract the PVE raider crowd, they have to come up with even bigger threats with each expansion. Each threat has to be more dire than the last.

That's why the people who defend the notion Alliance and Horde must unite for the common good, forget the fact that as long as PVE exists, these threats will never end, and if there isn't one Blizzard will manufacture it out of thin air. Today it's the Legion, tomorrow it's the Void Lords, and the day after it's something else. So at no point in time will the conflict between the Alliance and Horde ever be justified.

There's a reason, why many MMOs these days choose to not include different factions. It's often a pain in the butt.

I'd like more faction specific outposts and quest-hubs, but you don't need a full faction war for that.

[ItachiZaku]

Who says it had to be violent? Varian was already in talks with Lor'themar about getting Silvermoon to defect before Jaina screwed the pooch on that one. Varian could have spoken with the Horde leaders and offered them a long-term solution by folding them into the Alliance, especially since the Alliance player character should logically have informed him (and Vol'jin, for Horde player characters) about Wrathion's vision vis a vis impending Burning Legion invasion. They could have used the intervening time to strengthen their ties and get their troops used to working together through war games (oh look, BGs remain lore-relevant and same-faction/mercenary BGs gain lore basis) and establishing clear, guarded trade routes, and the Broken Shore would have been greatly mitigated (it still would have been a disaster, but we'd be walking away with clear channels of communication between the Horde and Alliance in this fantasy universe where the lore characters don't take stupid pills to shill the unending faction war, so the Alliance would have known the Horde got flanked and overrun rather than just ollied-out at the earliest opportunity).

Here's what you have (horde PoV):
Baine was very willing to have peace.
Lorthermar was already on good tactical footing/respect with Jaina
Vol'Jin had a love affair with some human dude
Thrall's been balls deep in Jaina for awhile
Varok Saurfang was "allowed" to retrieve his sons body at IC, without any resistance from Varian or Muradin.
Sylvanas, for better or worse, alliance did "invade" Undercity to take out the Legendary Putress after the Wrategate
Hamuul Runetotem and Malfurion are homeboys

So from that angle, you have the argument that ALL Horde leaders worth a shit have good ties with Alliance.

That said, if blizz just abolished the factions, the game would be F2P within 3 years and the game would die quicker than it is. Opposing factions is the one staple that should never be removed from an MMO. I am a PVPer though.

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We don't need a "rawr kill alliance/horde" motivation every xpac, we don't however need the factions to merge into one. differences are good.

Not to the level of Sylvanas vs Genny in Stormheim, but we need a world PVP zone every expansion. Those are easily the best parts for me. Wintersgrasp, Tol'barad, Ashran... all the best parts of those expansions for me. I'm not sure how you keep that realistically fresh after killing off Gary for no good reason.

They should never have made Gary all god infused. Best part was Varian vs Garrosh since wrath, every time they'd see each other there was always some beef. It was awesome.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

The only thing I has to say is that Gen vs Silvanas was pointless stupidity.

Genn Greymane started it. Sylvanas felt desperately sorry for Varian dying.

[Aucald]

Genn Greymane started it. Sylvanas felt desperately sorry for Varian dying.

"Desperately sorry" might be overselling it somewhat, but I do think Sylvanas was loath to quit the field on Vol'jin's command - either because she wished to stay and fight or because she didn't want to leave the Horde's erstwhile allies in the lurch. Her face and body-language at the close of the Broken Shore cinematic communicates reluctance and resignation, at least to me.

[Friendlyimmolation]

"Desperately sorry" might be overselling it somewhat, but I do think Sylvanas was loath to quit the field on Vol'jin's command - either because she wished to stay and fight or because she didn't want to leave the Horde's erstwhile allies in the lurch. Her face and body-language at the close of the Broken Shore cinematic communicates reluctance and resignation, at least to me.

her face indicates she knows the shitshow thats going to come and how she is going to be blamed. Atl least thats what I got from it.

[Aucald]

her face indicates she knows the shitshow thats going to come and how she is going to be blamed. Atl least thats what I got from it.

Might be the source of said reluctance, sure. I don't think Sylvanas has any special love of Varian, or any of the Alliance leadership - but I think she wanted the Horde to acquit itself with courage, nonetheless.

[micwini]

some of that stuff would never happen. The only reason he ever wanted to go to the Alliance is dead. The forsaken would turn lordaeron into a blighted hell if they figured out they would lose. The tauren aren't going to strike a peace with the Alliance and leave Orgrimmar alone etc.

Tldr, blood elves would spit in the face of the Alliance and Forsaken aren't going to lose Lordaeron, Tauren aren't cowards.


All this QQ about Horde favortism and Alliance still finds things to cry about. You raided Orgrimmar and that obviously somehow doesn't count.

Because we helped you, not because we beat your ass. The raid bosses weren't in anyway affiliated with the horde action anymore.

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Oh, I thought you were interested in actual discussion about the content of a faction war xpac. My mistake.

You asked about the motivation behind dungeons (which I already answered in a previous post) and how I would handle the end of the expansion. I answered that. Didn't know you wanted to talk about something else. Your mistake indeed.

[tikcol]

WoW is a faction based game, stop trying to change it with this "come together" stuff

[Magnagarde]

WoW is a faction based game, stop trying to change it with this "come together" stuff

I hope that is that WoW goes back to in one of the upcoming expansions.