Havoc DPS and scaling

[Gerege]

Hi guys, how well does Havoc DH scale with gear and how is their DPS compared to other Melee DPS? Also are they good in ST and AOE in mythic+ and normal/heroic raiding?

Thanks

[Sellest]

Hi guys, how well does Havoc DH scale with gear and how is their DPS compared to other Melee DPS? Also are they good in ST and AOE in mythic+ and normal/heroic raiding?

Thanks

tl;dr: yes!

I actually use 2 different dps specs - eye beam spec for m+ and aoe fights and standard st dps for fights like Krosus. I also have super fun in M+ too.

[Deleted]

In the nicest possible way, by the questions you ask it seems like you've done very little research.

Krosus Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1842 (We're 4th out of 36)
Aluriel Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1871 (We're 12th out of 36)

We scale absolutely fine.

I cannot think of any single weakness DH has, that other melee don't suffer with. Maybe regular burst windows if that was necessary for a specific fight?

[Shirofune]

In the nicest possible way, by the questions you ask it seems like you've done very little research.

Krosus Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1842 (We're 4th out of 36)
Aluriel Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1871 (We're 12th out of 36)

We scale absolutely fine.

I cannot think of any single weakness DH has, that other melee don't suffer with. Maybe regular burst windows if that was necessary for a specific fight?

I can think of at least, two.

1/ Target switching penalties. (Nemesis, nuff said)
2/ Long as fuck CDs, which in most of NH fights are hard to time properly for burst phases. (Tichondrius hello)

Other than that, our damage is fine and we scale just fine as well. We've design issues around of fury generation but those should be fixed in T20 by having Blade Dance generate fury. We're far too reliant on RNG, tho.

[Thelonehalfswede]

I am raiding with a warlock, my Ilvl out scales his with 10-15 Ilvl (depending on fights). Regardless in most of the fights, he kicks my behind. So goes for enhancement shaman, regardless of fight.

I don't get it...

[Deleted]

In the nicest possible way, by the questions you ask it seems like you've done very little research.

Krosus Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1842 (We're 4th out of 36)
Aluriel Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1871 (We're 12th out of 36)

We scale absolutely fine.

I cannot think of any single weakness DH has, that other melee don't suffer with. Maybe regular burst windows if that was necessary for a specific fight?

Nice cherry picking. Krosus is a melee favored fight in general and the fight length is better for DHs than for most other classes (3 minute CDs suck on a 6 minute or less fight). Aluriel is short burst AoE, which should be perfect for us, yet we are only average. Look at the other bosses, too. We are at most middle of the pack. Viable, but not good or great. On the really difficult fights (Starboi, Elisande, Gul'dan) we are kinda bad.

Havoc is viable, but does not scale very well at the moment. This will become even more apparent with 43+ traits, because outside of rank 4 in Critical Chaos, we have nearly no gains while other specs have pretty decent 4th ranks. (if you have the bracers the TG trait will begood, too).

Also, as Shirofune already said: Nemesis sucks ass in so many ways, but it is still the best Option. Playing around it on Botanist is an absolute Horror and switching Targets costs you at least 12,5% of your damage on average.

[Kash6]

Also, as Shirofune already said: Nemesis sucks ass in so many ways, but it is still the best Option. Playing around it on Botanist is an absolute Horror and switching Targets costs you at least 12,5% of your damage on average.

Not exactly, put nemesis on a parasite right before it dies, you now have nemesis against everything in the fight except solar orbs because the parasites are listed as humanoids.

[gaaara]

Nemesis is probably the most annoying one to live with, lucky tho some bosses in NH you can stack it on the adds and get the buffs for everything like Bot/Skorp.

With that said, bad RNG with Critical during Meta will have a dramatic effect on ure total dmg done.even with close to 60% crit, you can get some super bad RNG. Lately my annihilation phase crits are pretty low, at one point i had 20%~ crit.

[Deleted]

I feel like havoc is scaling is pretty bad atm. Week after week I can see we are falling in dmg meter to the average and below. Warriors, rogues and DKs are better choice currently, Personally I would see behind that legendary gain, trinket and t19/20 not as benefical as for other classes. And I feel it will be even worse when T20 will hit us.
What I would like to see is some rework on eye beam so demonic would be performing better and it would be actually usable on single target as a REAL dps gain over chaos strike - this spell is so iconic for DH its shame its not benefical as for example fist of fury for ww.
Maybe remove 100% crit from it, so it can actually take advance of crit we have, buff its first target damage/tweak rest targets? But I believe blizz would be able to screew this even more.

[Deleted]

Not exactly, put nemesis on a parasite right before it dies, you now have nemesis against everything in the fight except solar orbs because the parasites are listed as humanoids.

Ofc, but what do you when your kill time is such that the Naturalist (first target) will "die" (not really so you cannot put nemesis on him) in ~30 seconds and the next lashers will spawn in ~30 seconds - with the timer for them resetting when the Naturalist dies.

Nemesis is just shit.

[Kazimere]

@Shirofune:
It'd be nice if Nemesis was a one minute CD, 30s duration. It could work kinda like that ability hunters have that resets if the target dies during it's duration (can't recall the name). Or a 10-15s duration with no CD and ST only; so we could target swap a little easier on specific targets.

I don't mind that we lost the reliance on utilizing FR for the Momentum window (you have to admit it's a lot smoother now to use FR when you see fit instead of the forcing function).

I'd also much prefer to have our burst reduced in favor of better sustained. We're heroes for about 30s at the beginning of a fight and then we're sucking for the rest.

[ehxy]

To be honest we don't scale all that great. We look good for the opener and then fall short. That's what we are a really great looking short game with a huge fall off. Our sustain? we have sustain? I think we will be seeing a much different kind of demonhunter going forward but it won't be confirmed til we can play around with the t20 set as far as the go to raid spec is concerned.

[Killface1]

Pre 7.1.5: "OMG THEY KILLED DEMON HUNTERS THE SKY IS FALLING FUCKIT I QUIT"
Post 7.1.5: "huh, this isn't so bad, I guess were actually pretty good..."
Pre 7.2: "OMG WERE HORRIBLE WERE WAY BEHIND THE OTHER MELEE THE SKY IS FALLING FUCKIT I QUIT"
Post: "????"

Moral is, if were not at LEAST midpack, were getting a buff. We are literally the most popular (havoc) spec in the game right now, and if theres one thing blizzard tuning history has taught us, its that they're happy to let specs with lower player bases fluctuate in numbers and be on the lower side, they wont tolerate popular classes and specs being "bad."

We'll be competitive. Whether we'll be FOTM remains to be seen, but we bring a fair amount of raid utility with darkness, an immunity, and imprison. Your spot wont go away, we scale perfectly fine with gear, and while were looking at some differences in playstyle because of the changes in where we generate our fury (less from chaos strike, more from bladedance, more stable fury, things aren't gonna be that different.

[Deleted]

Pre 7.1.5: "OMG THEY KILLED DEMON HUNTERS THE SKY IS FALLING FUCKIT I QUIT"
Post 7.1.5: "huh, this isn't so bad, I guess were actually pretty good..."
Pre 7.2: "OMG WERE HORRIBLE WERE WAY BEHIND THE OTHER MELEE THE SKY IS FALLING FUCKIT I QUIT"
Post: "????"

If you look at all bosses and don't look at the unnecessary padding on a lot of fights, Havoc is bottom third. Not terrible, but definetly nothing special. So what's your point?

Moral is, if were not at LEAST midpack, were getting a buff. We are literally the most popular (havoc) spec in the game right now, and if theres one thing blizzard tuning history has taught us, its that they're happy to let specs with lower player bases fluctuate in numbers and be on the lower side, they wont tolerate popular classes and specs being "bad."

Most popular spec? Maybe that's because our class only has 2 specs overall and only one DPS spec...just maybe.

We'll be competitive. Whether we'll be FOTM remains to be seen, but we bring a fair amount of raid utility with darkness, an immunity, and imprison. Your spot wont go away, we scale perfectly fine with gear, and while were looking at some differences in playstyle because of the changes in where we generate our fury (less from chaos strike, more from bladedance, more stable fury, things aren't gonna be that different.

No one is questioning wheteher DH is viable. The OP asked about scaling and got answers.


On topic: I don't know how it is for all other specs, but I think most have more than 1 "old" 3/3 trait that does something for their DPS. If you are Havoc and don't have the bracers, Critical Chaos is the only significant DPS increase you will get. The 2nd best is supposed to be Demon Blades, which is a whopping 2,8k DPS increase for me (at 850k ST DPS) - the rest is even worse. I know that Shadow Priests get quite a lot out of their additional 4th slots, for example.

[Wakkiki]

I would love to see DH getting a 3rd spec. How i see it is the following ...Seperate the demonic build to a complete different spec with awesome aoe and good single target dps and let the Havoc spec being more single target oriented. I know this is a long shot but this is how i feel it would benefit the DH class. On the other hand since we are not top DPS ers (from what i see from your comments (i play demonic on m+ and i dont raid)) some buffs would be most wellcome. What i think is the following. Buff the duration on momentum by 3 sec and on the nemesis buff after 1st min if the target is still alive then u get a flat 10% buff for the specific type of mob (humanoid, beast ect). Feel free to comment on those changes i propose and/or make some on your own.

[Deleted]

Buff the duration on momentum by 3 sec and on the nemesis buff after 1st min if the target is still alive then u get a flat 10% buff for the specific type of mob (humanoid, beast ect). Feel free to comment on those changes i propose and/or make some on your own.

Personally this is what I see as the biggest problem havoc has currently. We have too many strong dps cooldowns (meta, menesis/momentum, chaos blades). In pvp this is the reason why we got nerfed. In pve when you combine this with legendary belt, you are having great opener, but then nothing. Our sustain is non existing because we are able to deliver best dps with cooldowns, but worst without them. I would be rather receive some buff to all our abilities and nerf to nemesis/meta/chaos blades.

What I completely dont understand from blizz they introduced new talent (chaos cleave) but nobody is using it. We have one dps spec, but t20 is locking us to spec for blade dance, totally killing lego bracers.
Another pain is fury generation. T19, T20, legendary ring are here to boost our fury. I think blizz should not fix this problem with this lousy tier bonuses.

[ehxy]

Personally this is what I see as the biggest problem havoc has currently. We have too many strong dps cooldowns (meta, menesis/momentum, chaos blades). In pvp this is the reason why we got nerfed. In pve when you combine this with legendary belt, you are having great opener, but then nothing. Our sustain is non existing because we are able to deliver best dps with cooldowns, but worst without them. I would be rather receive some buff to all our abilities and nerf to nemesis/meta/chaos blades.

What I completely dont understand from blizz they introduced new talent (chaos cleave) but nobody is using it. We have one dps spec, but t20 is locking us to spec for blade dance, totally killing lego bracers.
Another pain is fury generation. T19, T20, legendary ring are here to boost our fury. I think blizz should not fix this problem with this lousy tier bonuses.

You do realise that t20 means blade dance will be a fury generator too right?

[Deleted]

( Pawn: v1: "moarg KJ bloodlet arcano digit": Class=Demonhunter, Spec=Havoc, Agility=15.27, CritRating=19.10, HasteRating=17.42, MasteryRating=17.68, Versatility=14.80 )

this is why we suck with higher ilvls.
fuck me lol....

[KingBat]

WOD demo like spec plox...