Origins of the Universe

[Deleted]

Im not a fully trained mental health professional, but...why not? Im pretty sure we don't indulge patients with delusions. We treat them?

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Is it more logical that a magical being, or a sock, created the world. My answer? Either is extremely unlikely, but i can't say with 100% certainty.

Because im not delusional.

Don't use methods like strawmen and appeal to ridicule in your argumentation, makes you unpleasant to talk to.

Why is it illogical for a being to create the world? To a caveman we are able top create things that are unimaginable, is it therefore illogical to assess that we have created rocket ships simply because there are creatures unable to grasp our ability to do so?

If you find a cabin in the woods, do you immediatly believe that trees fell and landed in a way that cut the logs and placed them in a pattern that made a cabin? I guess you don't, why not? You're saying that a creator of something complex is extremely unlikely. Logic would have you believe that goes for more things.

[Deleted]

Because you're not convincing them when you're putting up a communications barrier by calling people delusional...duh!

For someone that is making some claim to science, logic isn't your strong suit. But I suppose logic and science are different things to you.

I don't understand, delusional is delusional, right? Whether its believing in a sky god or hearing voices or hallucinating?

Why does believing in a sky god get preferential trestment? ( Horrible phrasing, sorry)

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Don't use methods like strawmen and appeal to ridicule in your argumentation, makes you unpleasant to talk to.

Why is it illogical for a being to create the world? To a caveman we are able top create things that are unimaginable, is it therefore illogical to assess that we have created rocket ships simply because there are creatures unable to grasp our ability to do so?

If you find a cabin in the woods, do you immediatly believe that trees fell and landed in a way that cut the logs and placed them in a pattern that made a cabin? I guess you don't, why not? You're saying that a creator of something complex is extremely unlikely. Logic would have you believe that goes for more things.

Ah, my apologies, i misunderstood.

It is not illogical that a technologically advance being created the earth. Far fetched, yes, but not illogical.

It is illogical that a bearded human looking being created the earth and then created a lot of datef, inconsistent rules for beings he created in his image to live on that world to adhere to, or in death have their soul placed into hell indefinitely. Blah blah blah.

[Shadowferal]

I don't understand, delusional is delusional, right? Whether its believing in a sky god or hearing voices or hallucinating?

Why does believing in a sky god get preferential trestment? ( Horrible phrasing, sorry)

Because 95% of the world's population says so.
But on a more serious note, when you call people delusional or whatever, the first reaction is defensive. Which means your argument is no longer even heard. In turn that means you weren't even interested in convincing the opposition. You were only interested in insulting them.

[Dezerte]

All right. So let's try to get through this. Is it illogical for a being of some kind to have created the world, and why?

Just me butting into this conversation.

The problem I find with an "eternal creator" is that it simply is a cop-out and merely pushes the question back one step, and the questions then becomes "Who/What created the creator?" etc.

It is a slightly illogical argument. A mixture of argument from ignorance and divine fallacy I'd say. But it's not something you should feel bad about, because I can almost guarantee you that every single human being has at least one illogical belief in something.

[Deleted]

It is illogical that a bearded human looking being created the earth and then created a lot of datef, inconsistent rules for beings he created in his image to live on that world to adhere to, or in death have their soul placed into hell indefinitely. Blah blah blah.

This is however your own made up idea about how a popular creator looks like and behaves that you stick to because ridicule is a powerful defense mechanism. I can read the bible or quran or any other book and interpret the creator described there in many different ways. Who are you to decide that the God written about in the Bible is not a technologically advanced being that people several thousand years ago made up their own ideas about and decides to write down?

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Just me butting into this conversation.

The problem I find with an "eternal creator" is that it simply is a cop-out and merely pushes the question back one step, and the questions then becomes "Who/What created the creator?" etc.

It is a slightly illogical argument. A mixture of argument from ignorance and divine fallacy I'd say. But it's not something you should feel bad about, because I can almost guarantee you that every single human being has at least one illogical belief in something.

You misunderstand. But let's try to discuss this from another angle; where do you think the universe comes from?

[Shadowferal]

Just me butting into this conversation.

The problem I find with an "eternal creator" is that it simply is a cop-out and merely pushes the question back one step, and the questions then becomes "Who/What created the creator?" etc.

There are some of the more "militant" that insist you have to be one or the other, not realizing that "God using science" is a step in the direction that I would think they should be advocating considering that the vast majority of the world does hold to a belief system.

[Ghostpanther]

Just me butting into this conversation.

The problem I find with an "eternal creator" is that it simply is a cop-out and merely pushes the question back one step, and the questions then becomes "Who/What created the creator?" etc.

It is a slightly illogical argument. A mixture of argument from ignorance and divine fallacy I'd say. But it's not something you should feel bad about, because I can almost guarantee you that every single human being has at least one illogical belief in something.

Another easy one to answer. The Creator has always existed.

[Dezerte]

You misunderstand. But let's try to discuss this from another angle; where do you think the universe comes from?

I don't know, and I'd like to find out.

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Another easy one to answer. The Creator has always existed.

"The universe has always existed".

[Ghostpanther]

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"The universe has always existed".

Another one of things we ether believe or not. But time will eventually prove what is true to all of us.

[GennGreymane]

Just me butting into this conversation.

The problem I find with an "eternal creator" is that it simply is a cop-out and merely pushes the question back one step, and the questions then becomes "Who/What created the creator?" etc.

It is a slightly illogical argument. A mixture of argument from ignorance and divine fallacy I'd say. But it's not something you should feel bad about, because I can almost guarantee you that every single human being has at least one illogical belief in something.

Gonna agree here

Just saying "a creator" (gotta say creator because claiming God did it makes it less credible... somehow?) just ends the discussion there. Where would you go from there? You got the answer, so why continue? God did it is the worst way to answer a question when there can be more to it, but some people are more than happy to say god did it and call it a day.

[Deleted]

Because 95% of the world's population says so.
But on a more serious note, when you call people delusional or whatever, the first reaction is defensive. Which means your argument is no longer even heard. In turn that means you weren't even interested in convincing the opposition. You were only interested in insulting them.

Im sorry they find it insulting. Does a bipolar sufferer find it insulting when they are described as bipolar?

And more to the point, considering the amount of horrendous things religious people have done through the ages, i don't care if their feelings are hurt.

[Ghostpanther]

Gonna agree here

Just saying "a creator" (gotta say creator because claiming God did it makes it less credible... somehow?) just ends the discussion there. Where would you go from there? You got the answer, so why continue? God did it is the worst way to answer a question when there can be more to it, but some people are more than happy to say god did it and call it a day.

Some times there is no constructive reason to continue. You simply state what you believe and move on. As the wise saying goes, there are times not to cast your pearls before swine. Or in so many words this is what it meant.

[Dezerte]

Another one of things we ether believe or not. But time will eventually prove what is true to all of us.

I don't believe that the universe has always existed, I simply don't know. I was merely trying to make a point. Not knowing means there is a great mystery to solve and that excites me.

I would be totally okay with if we discover that a creator existed, but it wouldn't make me stop wondering. It would simply make me wonder about the creator instead.

[GennGreymane]

Some times there is no constructive reason to continue. You simply state what you believe and move on. As the wise saying goes, there are times not to cast your pearls before swine. Or in so many words this is what it meant.

I am glad many in scientific fields do not feel the way you do, for we would not have gained a greater understanding of the world and universe around us.

[Ghostpanther]

I am glad many in scientific fields do not feel the way you do, for we would not have gained a greater understanding of the world and universe around us.

Na. You are overreacting. Believing in a Creator does not mean you dump all science advancement. Isaac Newton, a brilliant scientist was also a Christian and a deeply spiritual one.

[Garnier Fructis]

Another one of things we ether believe or not. But time will eventually prove what is true to all of us.

I know what you're driving at, but even writing this presupposes already that there's life after death. Because that's the only way that we will all eventually know. If there isn't life after death, we cannot know, because we will no consciousness at all.

So yeah, writing 'time will eventually prove what is true to all of us' already presupposes something that can't be proved or disproved. Which means that you can't actually call what you wrote a true statement.

[Ghostpanther]

I know what you're driving at, but even writing this presupposes already that there's life after death. Because that's the only way that we will all eventually know. If there isn't life after death, we cannot know, because we will no consciousness at all.

So yeah, writing 'time will eventually prove what is true to all of us' already presupposes something that can't be proved or disproved. Which means that you can't actually call what you wrote a true statement.

It is for me and those who believe like I do. But yeah, you can not prove it to those who do not. But if I am right, I will.

[Tychus]

Isaac Newton, a brilliant scientist was also a Christian and a deeply spiritual one.

he also believed in alchemy and a variety of weird things. he rejected the idea of jesus being divine.

[Soeroah]

There as many scientific theories as there are religious beliefs on the matter, and there is no true consensus.

I think the biggest non-religious belief is the big bang, but we don't know what came before that, if anything, and whether it's even possible to say there was a "before" the big bang if time as we know it came into being post-big bang.

[Ghostpanther]

he also believed in alchemy and a variety of weird things. he rejected the idea of jesus being divine.

You have link for that? I do know he did a biblical time table mathematical study which he based his prediction Jesus' second coming would occur in 2060. So he must have thought Jesus was divine to some degree. :P Alchemy is valuable to some extent to the point it is really Chemistry at work. He also lived in a time when a lot of things Science has since proved was right had not been.