Rogue quest OP?

[Faltemer]

Grim Patron had an unhealthy appeal to the game, that was evident with the community. It was something that helped promote the nerf.
Im only worried what the Rogue quest might do to the game, you and I can both agree it will turn people away.

I think the nerf was mostly due to the charge card being unhealthy for the game. Patrons themselves are fine (And after the charger nerf I wouldnt have minded them getting a small buff 3/4 or 4/4), the charge card just constantly makes the game on the edge of being busted. OTK is generally bad for the game when it requires so few cards and happens so early.

I think you are right about Rogue if nothing new steps up. But what if someone figures out a mage quest that works really well? I think that is much worse then Rogue, again because of the OTKness. What if hunters figure out a right ratio and every game is them always flooding you on 6? I think we need a while before this meta settles because this seems to be the expansion with the most ability for everyu class to have multiple decks. For most their quest and leg are very different playstyles.

didn't bluepost confirm that he is a 5/5 that gets the battlecry?

instead of a 2/2 he starts as a 5/5 and grows from there.

Yea, he starts as a 5/5, as does any other card, as does the new mini edwin of this expansion. So buffs/etc should work (defender). It does mean card over 5/5 does get nerfed down to it, ive stolen Ironbark protector from druid and a 5/5 for 8 is pretty lame, or the 7/8 taunt from shaman for 5.

[Wyrt]

I think it's just a little too easy to complete. It's really hard to deal with 5/5 minion spam on turn 5, especially if it's all charge minions. If it took a little longer to get done that would be better.

[Kralljin]

While i won most games against Quest Rogue, playing against this deck feels like playing against miracle rogue, you just sit there and watch the rogue complete the quest and win the game if he draws properly.

However Miracle rogue started Auctioneer stuff at Turn 6 or later, this now kicks off at Turn 2-3 sometimes.

[FobManX]

I think it's just a little too easy to complete. It's really hard to deal with 5/5 minion spam on turn 5, especially if it's all charge minions. If it took a little longer to get done that would be better.

Yeah maybe up the requirement to six minions instead of four, or something along those lines.

[Faltemer]

Yeah maybe up the requirement to six minions instead of four, or something along those lines.

6 is pretty impractical, I could see 5 though. You generally have 6 total bouncebacks, and you only use them on 2 ofs. Which mean 8/30 are useful, and needing 75% of those to complete the quest would be super inconsistent, or require running vanish/4 mana panda. I think people are overeacting to the quest for now, this still feels much easier to combat then pirate warrior and as an aside, running a dirty rat can really destroy their combo. If you pull something out when they have invested 2-3 into it and they have to hope for the 2nd one you can basically insta win. I could see taunt warrior doing well against them for this reason.

Now that I am thinking about it, running rat in the rogue deck doesnt seem that bad, you generally just pull 1/1's out of their bounce monsters which are good for you. Hmmm...

[Mahourai]

Early season success against trash untuned homebrew decks is basically meaningless. It's certainly not early enough to start crying for nerfs.

The rogue deck gets blown up by aggressive lists, I don't think it's very resilient.

[caractacus]

Early days but from what I have seen today I currently think it's OP

[FobManX]

Early season success against trash untuned homebrew decks is basically meaningless. It's certainly not early enough to start crying for nerfs.

The rogue deck gets blown up by aggressive lists, I don't think it's very resilient.

Yeah honestly you're probably right. Once people refine decks it'll probably drop off, and I can't imagine it being good against hyper aggressive aggro.

It is un fun to play against though. There are times where they play like 5 cards on turn 1, its just bleeeeh.

[Pantalaimon]

No youre right, I was triggered actually, because you just basically said:
Rogues need something OP, drastically difficult to go against more than any other, because theyve been undertuned elsewhere.

Im talking about the rogue quest, and youre discussing everything other than that. Its using something else to justify what you think is right



Youre assuming its going to be nerfed harshly but this is a completely different factor; a new system, legendary spell quests will receive a different compensation than previous nerfs that made those cards unplayable.

Can you find me a hearthstone forum where the threads arent all filled with people complaining about the Rogue quest being way too strong and needing balance?
How about your games? Are you telling me youre not coming across Rogues almost every other game?
How about how Rogues can finish their quest by turn 4 while most other quests are not as consistent?

You're way too worried about this inevitable nerf and concerned about the wrong things.

Just because this Rogue quest needs changing, doesnt mean its going to never be playable again. You have the only Blizzard game that doesnt do PTR testing, of course there will be a card here and there that's absolutely unbalanced. You just gotta eventually admit it, even if it doesnt benefit you.

The majority has been wrong before, but we're talking one of the biggest majorities than Grim Patron and Leeroy

No, what I am saying is that Rogues need their quest to be left in a playable competitive state if they do get a nerf. Outside of the quest the other rogue cards for Un'Goro are bad (with some okay exceptions). As others have mentioned already saying that the deck is OP when the cards have barely been out is a tad amateurish.

See the thing is, and I am coming from a WoW background too, is that just because lots of people are complaining about something it doesn't guarantee that what the people are complaining about is a legitimate problem that must be addressed, or even applies to anything broken/busted/OP. People complained about Charging Worgen Warriors, a deck that was never a real contender in any meta that the deck was played in, yet because players were too idiotic to play around warrior removal by not pressuring them and then on top of that couldn't be bothered to run tech taunt minions like Argus they whined about the deck. In this example the deck wasn't an actual threat to the meta, it more or less boiled down to lazy people not playing smart by including techs and the general outcry against otk/combo decks in general.

For all we know the rogue quest could be a type of this general form of QQing (though obviously the deck is much better than an inconsistent otk warrior deck). Players who whine may not be good knowledgeable players and/or they may simply have their own playstyle biases that don't want to have to be matched up against the type of deck that the quest produces, thus the whine threads flood in.

As far as being worried about nerfs, I think the moderate worry is justified considering this is the company/team that has nerfed things before, not to balance a strong card, but because they wanted to nerf it so that people would stop playing it (see the blue response in the last one or two batches of nerfs for the kind of response I am referencing). Blizzard nerfs are widely swinging pendulum nerfs for the most part. They don't usually make 'okay' or 'good' cards after nerfs, the cards are often turned into bad ones instead.

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I think it's just a little too easy to complete. It's really hard to deal with 5/5 minion spam on turn 5, especially if it's all charge minions. If it took a little longer to get done that would be better.

Though you also have to consider that the bounce cards to fulfill the quest are more or less akin to 'dead cards' in combo/otk decks (ie they aren't playable until you draw some of the other cards). The more you increase the requirement to have rogues summon more minions with the same name the greater the amount of dead bounce-to-hand cards they have to hold in hand until they can be played on the preferred quest fulfilling minion.

[NED funded]

Some things I've noticed the weakness of this deck is not deal as much as face damage as you can quickly, but establish a strong early board (Attacking face might not prove useful as some variations run the 2/1 elemental that freezes and that's quite strong against pirate warrior) and/or destroy their explosive turns. Zoolock and Handlock are quite strong against the deck and I've seen variations of paladin that are very effective against as well. Murloc Shaman it's not that strong, the thing is pretty weak against board clear and you are very reliant on what the megafin gives you.

[Kralljin]

Also, Old Freeze Mage is a joke to the Time Warp deck.

Had a game where Mage freezed my minions over 5 turns via discovered Blizzard / Frost Nova until he could drop two Sorcerer's apprentice along with 2x Molten Reflection, figure the rest.

[Socialhealer]

Also, Old Freeze Mage is a joke to the Time Warp deck.

Had a game where Mage freezed my minions over 5 turns via discovered Blizzard / Frost Nova until he could drop two Sorcerer's apprentice along with 2x Molten Reflection, figure the rest.

thats how mage will be though with discovers, sometimes you hit jackpot perfect answers wins you the game roflstomping the opponent. other times you get arcane explosion arcane missiles mirror images and you're like, shit this does nothing.

[zinfandel]

Official forums and Heartpwn are filled with Rogue Quest OP Threads.
Theres a definitely, yet justifiable, nerf coming.

A lot of people saying the same dumb thing doesn't make it any less dumb.

[caractacus]

I'll be honest an admit that after playing a couple of game against it with a cheap discard lock deck I'm not as worried about it being OP as I was yesterday.

[Lotus Victoria]

It's too easy to proc the Rogue quest. Only 4 bounces is not enough when every other class must do 6-7 "stuff".

[Deleted]

No, what I am saying is that Rogues need their quest to be left in a playable competitive state if they do get a nerf.

That is still among the worst excuses to not nerf a card, I don't care how you dress it. It sure hasn't been a problem in other cases. Look at priest, a class that has been utter dog poo for most its lifetime. It's pretty disgusting that viable and competitive have become nearly synonymous with OP in the HS community. You said it yourself...

"Outside of the quest the other rogue cards for Un'Goro are bad (with some okay exceptions)"
You mean being okay is not good enough for you? It has to be top tier or it's just bad? This is the daily logic around here these days.

Patrons were a perfect example of this; it was perfectly viable after the nerf but to the community at large it was as good as dead.

[Pantalaimon]

That is still among the worst excuses to not nerf a card, I don't care how you dress it. It sure hasn't been a problem in other cases. Look at priest, a class that has been utter dog poo for most its lifetime. It's pretty disgusting that viable and competitive have become nearly synonymous with OP in the HS community. You said it yourself...

"Outside of the quest the other rogue cards for Un'Goro are bad (with some okay exceptions)"
You mean being okay is not good enough for you? It has to be top tier or it's just bad? This is the daily logic around here these days.

Patrons were a perfect example of this; it was perfectly viable after the nerf but to the community at large it was as good as dead.

How is it a bad excuse to not nerf it if the nerf still leaves it 'playable', but makes it so it does very poorly against the top 2-3 meta decks?

Let's stop pretending that net decking isn't a thing. "Viable" has a very fluid definition in the community. Some define it in a way that a deck may be viable as a tier 2 or 3 deck that can still have favorable match-ups, while other parts of the community define viable as merely a deck that can still work as a shadow of what it used to be, yet may not be able to win games against meta decks anymore. If we take the latter definition then the fact that people pretty much only net deck means that in terms of grinding the ladder then the deck could be as good as dead, unless you're gung-ho about slogging through the grind with a deck that has a considerably lower win rate (say sub 50% or even less, all depending on what a nerf to the quest would actually constitute).

In the end "viable" and "competitive" are indeed synonymous in many situations with regards to ladder because most players don't play a variety of decks. They play tier 1 decks most often, with some tier 2 decks. Decks that are subjectively ranked below those usually aren't a big problem on ladder. If the rogue quest was nerfed to a level that performed at about the level of a tier 3 or lower deck than it would not be a big stretch to say it would really struggle against tier 1 net decks, hence bringing the class down to a level where on paper it is "viable", but when actually trying to rank up on ladder it doesn't perform in the competitive scene to be viable against net decks.

In the end players need to learn to at least consider how they might counter decks instead of whining for nerfs before the week is even up. It is pretty pathetic that in card games players don't use an ounce of critical thinking and instead complain to get things changed. Hell, we already have players that have posted counters to the deck. Try running double dirty rats to screw up the bounce combos in the early game, or are we going to use the lame non-excuse that players shouldn't have to ever tech counter cards to win difficult match-ups?

[NED funded]

Stats I saw in Reddit, rogue has a winrate below 50% I think 47%, in ranks 5-1 it dips further.

[Deleted]

How is it a bad excuse to not nerf it if the nerf still leaves it 'playable', but makes it so it does very poorly against the top 2-3 meta decks?

Because one OP deck does overwhelmingly more harm to the game than one non-top tier deck. Seriously, you're talking like rogue would be the first class in history that didn't have a top tier deck.

Let's stop pretending that net decking isn't a thing.

I have no idea what net decking has to do with this, but while we're at it can we also dispense with the BS that rogue would be unplayable after a nerf to their quest? First of all, it would be easy as hell to nerf the card without rendering it useless. Secondly, if sub 50% win rate is your definition of unplayable then you can rest easy, because you have nothing to worry about. Blizzard could completely wreck the rogue quest and you could still achieve an above 50% win rate with as a rogue. Even my spell priest has a higher win rate than that.

[Mahourai]

Can someone please explain why anyone is asking for the rogue quest to be nerfed when it has a horrible matchup with the best decks in the format?

By the way if you think Patron was "perfectly viable" after the deck ceased to function with the nerf to Warsong Commander maybe you could show your work with the rest of the class?