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  1. #61
    With shoulders, I can understand holding on to 1 charge to maintain dire frenzy, but why would you hold the 2nd charge when you can use it for the damage, focus gen and bestial wrath cdr? And with thunderslash being active only during Aspect of the wild when we have 10% more crit, this gives us an even higher chance of getting procs, so maintaining dire frenzy during Aspect window is even easier.
    Last edited by Inerras; 2017-04-07 at 08:44 PM.

  2. #62
    The DF uptime without shoulders should go up by a lot. But for those of us playing with shoulders who were managing our 3 stack DFs properly, it'll be a nerf.

    Something interesting they could do is raise the cap on how many times DF can stack, and make the game with the shoulders about maintaining it at 5 stacks or so. With 100% WC on crit with OwtP, it should be somewhat feasible. But if they keep it at 3 stacks, seems like a pretty big nerf. Then, DF will just be a button you press for the 5 buffed autoattacks, and will constantly be at 3 stacks.

  3. #63
    *Insert black guy pointing to head meme*

    Can't be disappointed with legendary nerfs if you don't have any DPS legendaries.


    6 Legendaries, no DPS ones yet. Still Top 5 every fight in our Mythic NH clears.

  4. #64
    Just make 2 charges baseline for fuck sake, people have been asking for this since ALPHA.

    Even people who HAVE the shoulders say 2 charges should be baseline.

    LISTEN. TO. THE. COMMUNITY.

  5. #65
    lol holy shit ive never seen a company so determined to avoid such an obvious solution. it's kind of hilarious. it's like the people in charge there don't want to use any idea they didn't think of first.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Inerras View Post
    With shoulders, I can understand holding on to 1 charge to maintain dire frenzy, but why would you hold the 2nd charge when you can use it for the damage, focus gen and bestial wrath cdr? And with thunderslash being active only during Aspect of the wild when we have 10% more crit, this gives us an even higher chance of getting procs, so maintaining dire frenzy during Aspect window is even easier.
    dire frenzy can stack up to 3 times thats why u hold it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    lol holy shit ive never seen a company so determined to avoid such an obvious solution. it's kind of hilarious. it's like the people in charge there don't want to use any idea they didn't think of first.
    i think the reason why they wouldnt change it cuz 1. it would be a huge overall buff to bm as a spec in general, and this would mean alot of the dmg needs to be nerfed. as data suggest just ahve the shoulders alone can be a 600k dps to 800kdps increase. if 2 procs become baseline we will recieve huge nerfs elsewhere like bestial wraith reducted to half etc. 2. its already pretty far into the game and they might not just want to change stuff at this time of the stage. in general, blizz rather leave it to rng than fix the whole spec, so at least 50% of the population are happy and 50% are not.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by dattroll View Post
    dire frenzy can stack up to 3 times thats why u hold it.

    - - - Updated - - -


    i think the reason why they wouldnt change it cuz 1. it would be a huge overall buff to bm as a spec in general, and this would mean alot of the dmg needs to be nerfed. as data suggest just ahve the shoulders alone can be a 600k dps to 800kdps increase. if 2 procs become baseline we will recieve huge nerfs elsewhere like bestial wraith reducted to half etc. 2. its already pretty far into the game and they might not just want to change stuff at this time of the stage. in general, blizz rather leave it to rng than fix the whole spec, so at least 50% of the population are happy and 50% are not.
    LOL?

    The legendary shoulders are not a 200k DPS increase on their own lmao, not even close lol.

    and they would have to nerf BM's damage if the shoulders effect was made baseline? Uh, no, not at all, BM is only competitive WITH the shoulders right now.

  8. #68
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    Honestly, I don't care if they have to nerf our damage as a result, making 2 charges baseline just makes the spec feel better. I am not, nor have I ever been, a damage guy. I played BM back in Wrath (mained hunter in vanilla and BC too, but I was too dumb to know how talents worked back then) and cataclysm, when BM was the worst of the specs for damage just because I liked the pet focus. I don't care if they nerf BM to be the lowest damage spec in the game, all I care about is how the rotation and gameplay feels.
    The proposed change to wild call might be intended to be a shoulder/top end damage nerf, but I see it as a nerf to the last vestige of fun in the spec. You may get the Dire cast sooner, but sooner takes longer than now. Wild Call was the only thing that made the spec not a complete waiting game.
    A simple change that can improve the female worgen:
    http://tinypic.com/r/1zq7p0g/7

  9. #69
    Y'all realize this change is a buff right? Like... it's not making BM worse.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaNLG View Post
    LOL?

    The legendary shoulders are not a 200k DPS increase on their own lmao, not even close lol.

    and they would have to nerf BM's damage if the shoulders effect was made baseline? Uh, no, not at all, BM is only competitive WITH the shoulders right now.
    ya they prob arent, it is a bit over exaggerated. however, the point is have two dire procs is pretty huge right now. it gives u either more aoe dmg or massive spkie in single target im doing almost 900k on single target fights. if u dont believe me go check my logs dattroll kil jaeden.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by docacola View Post
    Y'all realize this change is a buff right? Like... it's not making BM worse.
    This change equalizes spikes of performance for those that do not have the Mantle, yes. But in its current iteration it will result in fewer DB casts per encounter on average, unless they do something totally unexpected with the so called "affected by haste" mechanics. And that is open to interpretation, as this comment does not make sense, taking current mechanics into consideration. Basically fewer DB casts may or may not be countered by the new mechanic. But the class will either be the same performance wise, or get a slight nerf.
    However, if you are lucky and already use the Mantle, you better have a replacement at the ready. Actual gain from having 2 charges with that system is so negligible, I would be surprised if it gets you a 1.5-2% damage increase. Coupled with lower item budget on shoulders, even revamped Roots or the Mask seem like a much better choice (they have an extra 1.75-2% from additional stats added in 7.2, bigger item budget AND nice healing effects to boot)
    Just my 2 cents, but I think it is a small nerf to BM in general and a large one (practically to the point of making it useless) for one particular legendary.
    Last edited by Gaaz; 2017-04-07 at 11:45 PM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaNLG View Post
    LOL?

    The legendary shoulders are not a 200k DPS increase on their own lmao, not even close lol.

    and they would have to nerf BM's damage if the shoulders effect was made baseline? Uh, no, not at all, BM is only competitive WITH the shoulders right now.
    also if u think about it if they made current shoulder effect baseline, new shoulder effeect is likely gonna be something like 50% increase on dire beast/frenzy proc, which would be a dps increase. unless ur telling right now blizz is gonna make shoulders a healing legendary like pants and head, they will nerf part of our dmg

  13. #73
    I tried getting my head around this blue post and strange and open to interpretation wording in it. As of right now, I am completely clueless as to how to interpret this new mechanics:
    1. Cooldown reduction is fixed to 3 seconds, wild call procs are doubled (vs live). Effect is an increase of DB casts per encounter, due to haste making current DB resets worth exactly 12 x (1 / (1+(X / 100))) / 2, where X is your % of haste, vs flat 3 secs twice as often. For example, you have 20% haste on live right now. Current DB reset is worth exactly 5 seconds (without the mantle, 10 with it), since your cooldown on DB is 10 seconds due to haste, not initial 12 secs. So you gain 1 sec worth of cooldown reduction extra from this setup if you do not have the mantle. In this case it is a buff to BM. Mantle is obsolete however, as it will net you only 1.5 sec reduction vs old 5 sec reduction bonus. In effect, its bonus just lost 70% of its power, only offering a slight advantage on initial pull.
    2. Cooldown reduction is designed so that 3sec represent the 25% reduction of current total cooldown, including haste coefficient. In this case it is basically the same for unlucky chaps that still do not have the mantle. Using the above 20% haste example, you get a 5 sec average reduction on live and after 7.2.5 hits. It will level spikes in min-max performance though. Mantle is still obsolete. Even more so than in the case #1
    3. The 3 sec cooldown decrease actually grows with haste. So with a 20% haste it becomes 3.6 secs of reduction. Now that is a decent buff for BM without the mantle. Instead of 5, you get 7.2 seconds of reduction from wild call procs due to double chances AND an increase in base amount of reduction. Mantle is still borderline useless however, albeit to a slightly lesser degree than in the previous scenarios.
    4. I am missing something significant and there is another option.
    Basically it comes down to this - top end performance BM hunters are going to take a hit due to BIS legendary losing most of its effect power (up to 75%). The rest are either the same (#2), or are buffed slightly by these changes (#1 and #3). Would this buff be enough to make other legendary combination to achieve the same level of performance as Mantle + belt / boots, that remains to be seen. OwtP may also play in it, depending on your crit levels. However, one thing is almost certain - Mantle of Command would become one of, if not THE worst legendary available to BM hunters. Nice going blizz. Curing headache with decapitation is obviously the way to go.

  14. #74

    This guy gets it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    I tried getting my head around this blue post and strange and open to interpretation wording in it. As of right now, I am completely clueless as to how to interpret this new mechanics:
    1. Cooldown reduction is fixed to 3 seconds, wild call procs are doubled (vs live). Effect is an increase of DB casts per encounter, due to haste making current DB resets worth exactly 12 x (1 / (1+(X / 100))) / 2, where X is your % of haste, vs flat 3 secs twice as often. For example, you have 20% haste on live right now. Current DB reset is worth exactly 5 seconds (without the mantle, 10 with it), since your cooldown on DB is 10 seconds due to haste, not initial 12 secs. So you gain 1 sec worth of cooldown reduction extra from this setup if you do not have the mantle. In this case it is a buff to BM. Mantle is obsolete however, as it will net you only 1.5 sec reduction vs old 5 sec reduction bonus. In effect, its bonus just lost 70% of its power, only offering a slight advantage on initial pull.
    2. Cooldown reduction is designed so that 3sec represent the 25% reduction of current total cooldown, including haste coefficient. In this case it is basically the same for unlucky chaps that still do not have the mantle. Using the above 20% haste example, you get a 5 sec average reduction on live and after 7.2.5 hits. It will level spikes in min-max performance though. Mantle is still obsolete. Even more so than in the case #1
    3. The 3 sec cooldown decrease actually grows with haste. So with a 20% haste it becomes 3.6 secs of reduction. Now that is a decent buff for BM without the mantle. Instead of 5, you get 7.2 seconds of reduction from wild call procs due to double chances AND an increase in base amount of reduction. Mantle is still borderline useless however, albeit to a slightly lesser degree than in the previous scenarios.
    4. I am missing something significant and there is another option.
    Basically it comes down to this - top end performance BM hunters are going to take a hit due to BIS legendary losing most of its effect power (up to 75%). The rest are either the same (#2), or are buffed slightly by these changes (#1 and #3). Would this buff be enough to make other legendary combination to achieve the same level of performance as Mantle + belt / boots, that remains to be seen. OwtP may also play in it, depending on your crit levels. However, one thing is almost certain - Mantle of Command would become one of, if not THE worst legendary available to BM hunters. Nice going blizz. Curing headache with decapitation is obviously the way to go.
    Totally agree with this statement.

  15. #75
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sim View Post
    It was never about performing w/o shoulders. But WITH shoulders you were able to crack the higher % tier of DPS. Like many have said before that this is more of a huge nerf to the top end of BM Hunters than anything else. Look at warcraftlogs and count the number of top 100 parses and see the with vs without stats.
    Its not huge though sure the very very top is mantle users... but take chronomatic for example.. there is guys w/o shoulders doing 1.2m and only 2-5k away from people in the top 10 with shoulders

  16. #76
    Level a DH. gets Uber nerfbat
    Level a hunter. gets Uber nerfbat
    im just having the worst luck this expac. Yea mantle is OP. Yea it needs balancing. but the change as blizzards looking at it right now just really seems to be a typical kneejerk overnerf.

    if the change goes live, good possibility that i'll try something else. not because "omg not FOTM anymore time to reroll" but just because i dont think the changes will do the "funness" of the spec any good.
    Till water is gone, Till shade is gone. Into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath. To spit in Sightblinders eye on the last day.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Snootylol View Post
    Its not huge though sure the very very top is mantle users... but take chronomatic for example.. there is guys w/o shoulders doing 1.2m and only 2-5k away from people in the top 10 with shoulders
    That is due to spikes in performance. Without the mantle your wild call procs vary hugely in power. On average they net around 5sec reduction (with 20% haste). But if you have been extremely lucky or unlucky, it theoretically can be anything from 10 to 0 sec benefit. Mantle makes it a static 10sec reduction if you do not cap out your charges. So while theoretically you can achieve the same level of performance without it, and there are a few logs available that show that it can be and was done in the past, on average Mantle is just too much of an advantage to pass up.

  18. #78
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Uniel View Post
    Well that seems like overkill. Especially considering BM is outperforming MM even without the shoulders...
    I`m 902 and will swap loot spec only for teh legendaryes or have to hope on Bracers drop and create powerfull combo with belt/bracers/trinket 4+2 set
    The idea itself is really good but having 2 charges now is the thing who push BM hunters ahead in the top side in damage meters now making us competitive with other damage dealers with only one item
    Anyway by the time that change comes we gona be on high enoug AK to swap fast from BM to MM (unlike 7.1) Beside that i have belt who if i`m not mistaken can swap to MM spec once the patch hits
    Last edited by mmoc2b5ad7a33a; 2017-04-08 at 06:28 AM.

  19. #79
    Horrible change, but par for the course with these devs. Smfh...

  20. #80
    Was already preparing Survival for Gul'dan and future ToS fights, so its an easy swap over to Survival for me if this goes ahead. Got my Butcher's Bone Apron last night <3

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