[Destruction] It's happening

[burek]

Pretty terrible changes. How are these going to make us any more competitive? We are going to stay in the 2 spread target cleave niche, which is good for 1 boss per raid. Our single target is obviously not going to be any good, and our priority add damage is receiving a huge nerf, when it wasn't amazing in the first place. Not to mention that the aoe is going to be pushed even further more into rain of fire and cataclysm, both utterly terrible abilities requiring stationary mobs. Good luck with that when trying to finish the dungeons as quickly as possible (or just simply having to kite).

[ComputerNerd]

I dont know why they ever fucking went away from the MoP design.

Ignoring actual tuning, the design was pretty great. Conflag generating emberbits, and now they're doing so again.

If only this is how Destro always was, I wouldn't have hated 7.0 so much.

- - - Updated - - -



Destruction was absolutely destroyed in WoD and given a band aid for a massive head wound in Legion. Demo also being fucked up doesn't change this.

I sympathize with my Demo brethren. That spec was utterly ruined by Demon Hunters being introduced. I dont even think they know what they want to do with that spec STILL.

Demo Meta was a fun mechanic which at the time could not be introduced to players via the characters which defined it, demon hunters.
The problem is players who conveniently forget where it came from.
Blizzard's mistake was giving it to us in the first place, because if blizzard take something away they are always the bad guys according to players. No matter the reason.

[KrazyK923]

Demo Meta was a fun mechanic which at the time could not be introduced to players via the characters which defined it, demon hunters.
The problem is players who conveniently forget where it came from.
Blizzard's mistake was giving it to us in the first place, because if blizzard take something away they are always the bad guys according to players. No matter the reason.

They are when it's been a staple of Warlocks since Wrath. We can argue about whether or not it was good in the first place but it was an established part of Demonology for nearly a decade, ripped away when Demon Hunters came back and replaced with a really shitty, unrewarding feeling system that doesn't even match class fantasy.

I also really hate this argument of "not able to be introduced" or "doesn't fit the class" nonsense. We've seen many times over that too much fel magic begins to turn you into a Demon, and Metamorphosis was the culmination. Willingly becoming a demon for a momentary increase in power. Completely in line with what Warlocks would do.

[Jondar]

Pretty terrible changes. How are these going to make us any more competitive? We are going to stay in the 2 spread target cleave niche, which is good for 1 boss per raid. Our single target is obviously not going to be any good, and our priority add damage is receiving a huge nerf, when it wasn't amazing in the first place. Not to mention that the aoe is going to be pushed even further more into rain of fire and cataclysm, both utterly terrible abilities requiring stationary mobs. Good luck with that when trying to finish the dungeons as quickly as possible (or just simply having to kite).

I agree.

I'll quote my reply to the Blizz forums thread,

Long time Destruction Warlock here. Been handling my own in Mythic since week 1, pre buffs and all. I've done quite well with the underperforming spec and know it in and out.

I'm concerned about this wreak havoc change and I'm concerned about the reduction of passive shard generation in favor of 'bits'. I'm not that excited about the new "Embers" based on this announcement and I dread the incoming Wreak Havoc.

1. Shard Generation: Are you going to be able guarantee that the loss of shards overall due to this shift to embers is not going to result in a net loss because of the damage buff? Embers are fine (I'm indifferent on them as I believe shard generation is absolutely fine as is) but if we end up losing damage because of this shift, then it is a bad change. We are already behind in damage done. We cannot afford to lose because of this change.

2. Wreak Havoc Cooldown: Please reconsider the cooldown of Wreak Havoc. I think most Destruction Warlocks would agree that a lower cooldown paired with a slightly lower duration would be better. Our niche isn't just two target cleave (there are typically very few fights with constant 2 target), it's on demand two target cleave. With this new WH, if there is a situation where more than two adds spawn every 20 seconds that need to be cleaved down.. our output on them is hurt considerably. A 40% damage buff to CB does not change that and I believe that would effectively put us out of our niche which was finally starting to see some love again with NH in Elisande and Gul'Dan progression.

3. Lvl 60 Talent Row: What happens to Cata/SH/FnB tier? Cata becomes effectively useless if FnB generates that many bits, plus its original luster came from its pairing with SH. Now that they've been in the same tree, that's gone. No one will take it; there's no reason to. Does it get buffed? Moved to baseline? Or does FnB become a baseline toggle again?

4. Conflag only 6 bits??: this is a BIG change. We've gone three full raids with conflag consistently generating a shard.. now it only generates 60% of one? This is going to feel really awkward for a long time.

I know people will be happy for nostalgias sake (even though I believe what people really liked about MoP Destruction was it's OP damage.. not it's resource being time to 'bits') but I have concerns moving forward for progression raiding/challenging PvE content if these are the only changes to Destro.

the tl;dr is that this change as is it doesn't really fix anything that's been holding us back, could potentially be a net loss in damage done if the CB buff doesn't offset the passive generation nerfs, and our niche of on demand 2 target is hit hard and in no way does the CB buff (if it is a buff; the damage boost might not off-set the shards lost) make us a lucrative single target spec. Another frustrating concept is that a reduction in passive generation means we're going to be hurt by movement as we won't be generating bits.

These changes alone aren't going to do much for us in the grand scheme of things. It may even be an overall nerf. To supplement these changes, I hope to see:

[ul]-some changes to Tier 1 (BD is always the clear winner; please do not take this as 'nerf BD.' RB is too frustrating to manage and the Shadowburn change killed it)

-better Dimensional Rift recharge rates, as well as faster damage output from the rifts to allow them to be used on faster-dying priority targets ESPECIALLY if we're receiving a WH nerf. this would also offset some of the loss of throughput movement is going to dump on us as when we're moving we won't be able to cast incinerate.. and if we're not casting incinerate, we're not generating bits.

-Stronger Grimoires all around. Service could use a damage boost, GSac defnitely could use a damage boost, and I don't really know any Destro lock using Grimoire of Sup mostly because of the extremely poor Lord of the Flames synergy

- Compensation for the WH nerf. We need to be able to dish out on demand priority add damage. A WH every 20 seconds doesn't cut it. Perhaps this could be seen in a buff to the legendary bracers and cloak, as both are underwhelming at this point in time and a WH nerf will not help them in any way. Same goes for Cry Havoc.

-Changes to SH and Cataclysm to put them in line with FnB as it will be very strong with the new change to ember bits, or FnB a toggle baseline ability again.[/ul]

To the Warlocks: please don't be short sighted and settle for this solely because they're going back to the beloved MoP generation; there's a chance we are about to become a mediocre cleave spec and a mediocre single target spec.

[blackops2008]

Obviously. Affliction was not discussed, why would Blizz change THAT version of SC?

Because it`s the same talent and have same effect on both specs, and aff locks are crying about rng just like destros. That`s why i`m worried.

[muto]

Grimoire of Service is the only thing I currently hate about Destro. That talent can burn in a fire.

[bio347]

What happens to Cata/SH/FnB tier? Cata becomes effectively useless if FnB generates that many bits, plus its original luster came from its pairing with SH. Now that they've been in the same tree, that's gone. No one will take it; there's no reason to. Does it get buffed? Moved to baseline? Or does FnB become a baseline toggle again?

Well, I can answer this one at least somewhat. If you read the post, they say that Cata is having its cooldown and cast time reduced. That might not be enough, but then again we also know that tuning isn't final yet so who knows?

[Gaidax]

My 3 immediate concerns are:

1. It is a very negative change for mobility, with Incinerate being a generator, we again will be losing shards when we move, unlike now where our shard generation continues on the move.
2. More Incinerate casts means more mana spent and more life taps done, not terribly exciting prospect.
3. Things moving out of RoF is already annoying, but with generation changes and its cost it will be a frikkin disaster.

Other than that, it is surprising that Chaos Bolt remains 2 Shards cost, the reduction in shard generation is very severe and I don't think that 40% buff will cut it. IMO they should have made Conflag generate same amount of shards as Incinerate, bring back Backdraft baseline and then dropped CB to one shard cost.

Honestly if they want to bring MoP resource back may as well have done it properly with costs, generation and mana regeneration mechanic back to that time, I don't think having one spec not life tapping its ass off would destroy their class fantasy.

- - - Updated - - -

Also this Havoc sledgehammer nerf, I don't see the compensation for it there. I'll be cool with that of it will result in us being better in some other area, but I fail to see such improvement there.

[KrazyK923]

I agree.

I'll quote my reply to the Blizz forums thread,



the tl;dr is that this change as is it doesn't really fix anything that's been holding us back, could potentially be a net loss in damage done if the CB buff doesn't offset the passive generation nerfs, and our niche of on demand 2 target is hit hard and in no way does the CB buff (if it is a buff; the damage boost might not off-set the shards lost) make us a lucrative single target spec.

Please don't be short sighted and settle for this solely because they're going back to the "beloved" MoP generation; there's a chance we are about to become a mediocre cleave spec and a mediocre single target spec.

I'll take a nerf if I can get away from WoD/Legion's terrible playstyle.

[Jondar]

I'll take a nerf if I can get away from WoD/Legion's terrible playstyle.

How much different do you expect this to feel, exactly?

I mean, realistically.. it's going to be the same except you're going to hate moving more, you're going to feel obligated to cast incinerate more, and as Gaidax pointed out that means you're going to be life tapping more. It's not like we're getting all the other perks that complimented the Bits style of MoP. We're just getting the bits. None of the SB shards, none of the KJC, none of the insanely overpowered high CB damage..Just the bits.

Consistent resource generation is cool and all.. but it's not like we need consistency; we aren't very cooldown based where consistency would thrirve, so the random but high volume generation was fine despite being a little sporadic (with gear, it eventually feels smooth enough).

Also, it's aids that Conflag isn't going to give us a full shard.

[KrazyK923]

None of the SB shards, none of the KJC, none of the insanely overpowered high CB damage..Just the bits.

I like how even when I talk about being ok with a nerf, you bring up "insanely overpowered CB damage."

lol.

Its funny that it always seems to be the same few people who disagreed with all of us during WoD/Legion's changes to Destro, and now that most of us are happy, the same people are out here talking about how bad its going to be.

Gotta love contrarians.

You know what I like about the old system? It felt like all my spells were useful. Incinerate. I love how everyone shits all over incinerate all the time, but at least it felt like I was using it for something rather than spamming it because nothing else was up that was actually useful.

[Deleted]

It's about time.

[Jondar]

I like how even when I talk about being ok with a nerf, you bring up "insanely overpowered CB damage."

lol.

Its funny that it always seems to be the same few people who disagreed with all of us during WoD/Legion's changes to Destro, and now that most of us are happy, the same people are out here talking about how bad its going to be.

Gotta love contrarians.

I really have no idea how you zeroed in on that part of the post, ignored the rest, and then thought this was an adequate response. It has nothing to do with being contrary. It has to do with you not understanding what this change - as is - is actually going to bring yet still feeling "happy" that it's coming because you think it's going to be some big improvement over the current kit. It's really not going to feel much different for the reasons I pointed out (which you chose to ignore) and my reason for bringing up the CB damage was because the damage was so high that you were able to ignore that negatives (which you were also able to do because of the other things mentioned) of the bit system.

As for the "same people," I post like once a month. The hell you talking about?

[KrazyK923]

I really have no idea how you zeroed in on that part of the post, ignored the rest, and then thought this was an adequate response. It has nothing to do with being contrary. It has to do with you not understanding what this change - as is - is actually going to bring yet still feeling "happy" that it's coming because you think it's going to be some big improvement over the current kit. It's really not going to feel much different for the reasons I pointed out (which you chose to ignore) and my reason for bringing up the CB damage was because the damage was so high that you were able to ignore that negatives (which you were also able to do because of the other things mentioned) of the bit system.

As for the "same people," I post like once a month. The hell you talking about?

I love how your immediate response is to think I don't understand what the changes are. And also implying I didn't understand the problems of MoP's design. Its cute.

I couldn't possibly care less how you feel about what the difference is going to be, although its funny that you're also making the same argument about how I supposedly feel. I wanted changes like this, and am happy about it.

Continue trying to insist that I won't be. Gotta love contrarians, as I said.

[Jondar]

You're being unnecessarily combative. You're acting like I'm making all theses strong implications about you and that I've "continued" to make insinuations about you? You responded to my post, not the other way around. I don't care about you. I simply explained why this isn't going to be the big mechanical change that you think it's going to be - I don't think that's grounds for you to try and turn this into a passive aggressive pissing contest.

[Khuros]

I just want cool ass orbs flying around me like Fire Mage.

[Wondercrab]

The first of many necessary steps back in the right direction. Destruction still has a long way to go, but this is a big deal and a promising start. I have no idea why they're going with an awkward "soul shard fragment" resource over the straightforward and thematically appropriate burning embers model, but perhaps we'll get there by the time we hit the next expansion.

Along with Destruction's thematic flair we're still missing the unique, practical, and fun AoE mechanic of the old Fire and Brimstone, the rotational variation of Shadowburn as an execute, and the general quality of life/something-to-press-while-moving nice filled by an instant ping like Fel Flame. Oh, and an interesting, thematically appropriate heal like Ember Tap instead of forcing Drain Life into a spec and playstyle that don't fit the spell at all. It would also be nice to see the mastery reworked into something interesting and enjoyable. "Chaotic" is a theme that applies only to the lore significance of Destruction as a spec, not the mechanics. Ever since MoP it has been an incredibly controlled, predictable spec with a slow, satisfying build/burn cycle. Adding wild RNG elements into such a playstyle is horribly jarring and completely inappropriate. It's not a fast-paced, proc-heavy spec where you have to respond quickly to unexpected elements. It needs a mastery system that plays to its strengths rather than fighting against them.

Destruction is still going to be a shadow of its former self, but hopefully with continued feedback we can see it restored to its previous glory. Getting brand new mechanics that are better than the old ones would be swell too. The main problem with Destruction right now is that most of the spec has devolved into a more generic, less fun, flavour-lacking version of what we had previously. It plays worse, it looks worse, and it feels worse. Let's cross our fingers for more changes in the future.

[Fabinas]

The people here (and in official forums) that ask for the visuals that were given to fire mages or think Blizz will return those to us are deluded. No chance for that, plus the post introducing soul bits doesn't even have any relation whatsoever with the visual topic.

While i do mostly agree with Gaidax (no2 concern is no concern if ELT stays as the best choice), i'll wait a bit to see the ptr changes to talents that cannot stay the same because of the soul bits introduction, the initial tuning and then jump on the wagon of pro or against those changes. This blue post is just a preview on their goals and definitely not the whole picture. If it turns out to be the whole picture though, Blizzard be damned and their imbecile devs.

[squee666]

[Deleted]

These changes seem very awesome, definetly a step in the right direction. The irony is strong on all the whiners out there - back at launch people whined about mechanics, and claimed to "not care about DPS, just bad mechanics." Blizz then went ahead buffing DPS while making gameplay worse (talent row swaps, backdraft nerf, ELT buff etc) and suddenly the whining stopped. And now, with mechanics being fixed people are whining about DPS loss, which is just bullshit - numbers are very easy to adjust.