Hopefully Blizz wakes up and scraps BoS build

[Akusa202]

If you don't like BoS and prefer MG, try this build.

Murderous efficiency
freezing fog
icecap
doesn't matter
doesn't matter
gathering storm
obliteration (can swap to GA if you need the aoe)

This should provide more damage than the typical mg build with icy talons and ra and play more or less the same, except you don't have to worry about maintaining icy talon stacks every few seconds and instead just focus on getting large gathering storm stacks with remorseless winter.

RA is not as good as it was in Emerald Nightmare because they fixed a bug with it, and the small amount of RP it gives you is not better than the damage increase from gathering storm on ST and especially AoE. Freezing fog is much better than frozen pulse because with t19 2 set we have so many rimes that it becomes our top damage ability. And without Ra and FP, icy talons looses a lot of it's value, and our auto attacks are such a small part of our dmg that the extra runes from ME will be better for more obliterates and rime procs.

This won't be as much as a properly played BoS build, but it should provide more ST and AoE damage than the typical MG build and a bit more enjoyable without having to keep an eye on icy talons.

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And honestly, people need to stop saying "if you're not in a top 100 guild or pushing world first you can play whatever you want blah blah" bullshit. There are plenty of guilds that are not top tier trying to progress through mythic and even heroic that will drop your ass if your dps is holding them back if there are suitable replacements.

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And people that keep saying they hate BoS and will never play it ever need to chill out for a sec, set some time aside one day and just practice with it. You'll see that it at it's core it really isn't much different than MG build other than the fact that you have a burst phase and a down phase whereas with MG you always have a down phase rofl. And take 10 mins to learn all of the night hold fights so you know when is the best time to be popping breath, instead of just randomly popping it whenever and having to move 2 seconds later and yelling "OMG THIS SPEC SUCKS".

[bungie]

I quit my dk because of MG build. It was insanely boring. I will gladly take what we have. The main problem is BoS is too hard to balance period. It's either going to be too good always, or it's going to be complete shit.

It's balanced right now. I'm confused.

[Zorachus]

If you don't like BoS and prefer MG, try this build.

Murderous efficiency
freezing fog
icecap
doesn't matter
doesn't matter
gathering storm
obliteration (can swap to GA if you need the aoe)

This should provide more damage than the typical mg build with icy talons and ra and play more or less the same, except you don't have to worry about maintaining icy talon stacks every few seconds and instead just focus on getting large gathering storm stacks with remorseless winter.

RA is not as good as it was in Emerald Nightmare because they fixed a bug with it, and the small amount of RP it gives you is not better than the damage increase from gathering storm on ST and especially AoE. Freezing fog is much better than frozen pulse because with t19 2 set we have so many rimes that it becomes our top damage ability. And without Ra and FP, icy talons looses a lot of it's value, and our auto attacks are such a small part of our dmg that the extra runes from ME will be better for more obliterates and rime procs.

This won't be as much as a properly played BoS build, but it should provide more ST and AoE damage than the typical MG build and a bit more enjoyable without having to keep an eye on icy talons.

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And honestly, people need to stop saying "if you're not in a top 100 guild or pushing world first you can play whatever you want blah blah" bullshit. There are plenty of guilds that are not top tier trying to progress through mythic and even heroic that will drop your ass if your dps is holding them back if there are suitable replacements.

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And people that keep saying they hate BoS and will never play it ever need to chill out for a sec, set some time aside one day and just practice with it. You'll see that it at it's core it really isn't much different than MG build other than the fact that you have a burst phase and a down phase whereas with MG you always have a down phase rofl. And take 10 mins to learn all of the night hold fights so you know when is the best time to be popping breath, instead of just randomly popping it whenever and having to move 2 seconds later and yelling "OMG THIS SPEC SUCKS".

Thank you, this setup GREATLY improved my dps over what I was doing, plus I took off the Tank trinket I had, and picked up a 860 DPS Trinket from a WQ. Now I am doing 475k dps per Recount against the Dummy, which is greatly improved from my 347k or so.

[RuneDK]

It's balanced right now. I'm confused.

Really? So we can go glacial advance or obliteration? That's what I mean about balance. Breath is going to be the only choice or not chosen at all.

[Akusa202]

Really? So we can go glacial advance or obliteration? That's what I mean about balance. Breath is going to be the only choice or not chosen at all.

The problem isn't that breath is too good. It's honestly balanced. You don't see dks topping every fight like op warlocks. The issue is that the other options are very bad, not that BoS is op. Like really, 4-5 oblit crits every 1.5 minutes? That's terrible. And it's a good thing that BoS is good right now instead of bad, because without BoS we would be in a very bad place, we'd make unholy look like gods if that was the case.

[Deleted]

Casuals like you removed the Bloodtap and soul reaper from the uh spec. The fucking cry "i cannot play this spec" ruined wow. Play a other class. The most dks want play the bos spec because you make a lot damage! And you can see the differences from good/bad player. Don't cry

[Deleted]

The problem isn't that breath is too good. It's honestly balanced. You don't see dks topping every fight like op warlocks. The issue is that the other options are very bad, not that BoS is op. Like really, 4-5 oblit crits every 1.5 minutes? That's terrible. And it's a good thing that BoS is good right now instead of bad, because without BoS we would be in a very bad place, we'd make unholy look like gods if that was the case.

You're not understanding what the other guy is saying. The other guy is talking about balance between builds within the class. You're talking about balance between BoS dk and other classes.

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It's simply true, beyond a question, that the fact that DPS talents where one is far superior, under any conditions, compared to the other options of the same tier, is a balance problem. The point of having tiers of talents where you can pick one is that - at the very least - different options in the same tier can be viable under different conditions. This is currently not the case. As a frost DK, if you're not playing the BoS build, you're gimping yourself.

While i have sympathy for the difficulties of balancing various builds and specs across Ilvls, and understand that it's entirely impossible to make all specs and builds have identical dps across all ilvls, there is always a point where blizzard has to step in and say "this is too far off balance, we're intervening".

This point has without a doubt been reached with frost dk's and the BoS build. I 100% applaud blizzard for having created this path. I think the BoS is an innovative, rotation-altering path that blizzard has given to frost dk's.

The problem is that the other builds are just too far behind. BoS is a cleave ability. It should outshine MG builds on cleave/aoe fights. The fact that it's head and shoulders above MG builds even on single target fights is a clear balance issue, and it should be addressed.

I hope blizzard is aware of this and will re-balance for 7.2.5, and aren't just patting themselves on the back for having created the BoS build (which, again, i think is great, it just can't outshine every other build in every single situation).

[Exertim]

Honestly, I went back to maining my DK BECAUSE of BoS build. MG Frost was so mindless and boring that I ended up shelving my DK for another character after the UH nerfs made the only non-boring spec sub optimal.

I'm also sure that they've been aware of the talent balance issues, we are one of many classes that has one tier 7 talent that stands head and shoulders above the others. The only reason you see so much more of an outcry from frost DK's is that our T7 talents change how we fundamentally play the entire spec, whereas something like Ret Paladin's Crusade/Divine Purpose still plays similarly.

[Amalkatrazz]

Wait, the topic starter is the same Zorachus who was trying to convince us all that according to his guild's theory crafters, Unholy should pull considerably more than Frost in any gear (and that was prior to 7.2).

Donald! Stop posting BS on these forums, or I'll ask your guildmaster Krom to demote you back to Noobz.

[RuneDK]

The problem isn't that breath is too good. It's honestly balanced. You don't see dks topping every fight like op warlocks. The issue is that the other options are very bad, not that BoS is op. Like really, 4-5 oblit crits every 1.5 minutes? That's terrible. And it's a good thing that BoS is good right now instead of bad, because without BoS we would be in a very bad place, we'd make unholy look like gods if that was the case.

You're still missing the point. I am not talking about us between other specs. I am talking between our three level 100 talents. Breath is either going to be the go to or it's not going to be chosen at all. Also, your points on obliteration were points people brought up through beta....personally I think it should be a baseline ability as it would make sense as a baseline cooldown, but not as a choice between breath or GA. However, it could shine IF we ever pick up frostscythe again for aoe.

So yes, I agree that breath IS balanced if we're talking all specs...however I was not and maybe I should have made that point a little bit more obvious. So for the balance of our three level 100 talents it is "overpowered" in comparison to GA/Obliteration. And it will either be the go to or not even a choice.

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Honestly, I went back to maining my DK BECAUSE of BoS build. MG Frost was so mindless and boring that I ended up shelving my DK for another character after the UH nerfs made the only non-boring spec sub optimal.

I'm also sure that they've been aware of the talent balance issues, we are one of many classes that has one tier 7 talent that stands head and shoulders above the others. The only reason you see so much more of an outcry from frost DK's is that our T7 talents change how we fundamentally play the entire spec, whereas something like Ret Paladin's Crusade/Divine Purpose still plays similarly.

I agree with you, I typically like to play frost as a whole....OBRA was too boring for me. Went enhance and didn't look back...Once BoS became the go to I started checking my DK back out until finally deciding that it was time to go back. However I won't main a shaman ever again for different reasons I won't go into. However it will surely be my main alt going forward.

[Akusa202]

I'll say it again. Breath isn't overpowered. The other two options are underpowered. Saying it's not balanced or overpowered compared to the other two implies that it should be nerfed to the level of the other two talents, which isn't the case. The other two are too weak and need to be brought up.

[RuneDK]

I'll say it again. Breath isn't overpowered. The other two options are underpowered. Saying it's not balanced or overpowered compared to the other two implies that it should be nerfed to the level of the other two talents, which isn't the case. The other two are too weak and need to be brought up.

You're still missing the point, so im not going to continue to debate about it after this post. Balancing Breath is a nightmare to begin with and one of the reasons I had hoped it didnt come through to live in general from beta. What I am saying is...either GA will be the go to or BoS will the go to...there's no way around it unless they buff Obliteration. Breath will always be the go to even if they buffed GA/Obliteration to it. It's ceiling will always be much much higher than both in the current state of affairs. The reason we picked GA at the beginning was because BoS was not worth it. They buffed it, it's now worth it. So they will either have to make the spell worth or or not worth it...that will always be the only choice.

[Baddok21]

this and if you want a mechanicly challeging spec dk isnt the class you should choose.

outside of Feral, Unholy and well played BoS Frost are the two most challenging DPS melee specs.

Technically DK would be the class for you if thats what you wanted for now in a melee.

[Deleted]

outside of Feral, Unholy and well played BoS Frost are the two most challenging DPS melee specs.

Technically DK would be the class for you if thats what you wanted for now in a melee.

survival hunter, ww has some optimizing it can do that id say is harder then bos aswell(i was dk main and bos was never challenging),havoc when using momentum build is harder(ik its not best right now but its still harder). feral but youve already said that.

[Deleted]

Retard topic. Why would you ask them to get rid of the only fun aspect of dk frost instead of pressing on shiny buttons with obliteration build ? If you are not fine with it leave instead of crying for something that doesn't make sense. DK's frost are fine since legion and they are still now even with the nerfs, the new golden trait is op and dk frost is still in high top of parsing with a good damage, I'm 904 equiped playing dk frost and the class is fine with BoS build, great burst and even without at least 600k dps when breath is over so stop complaining for nothing.

[Akusa202]

No, you're the one missing the point. Ga and obliteration are bad, not because BoS is too good but because they are just bad. BoS has nothing to do with those two talents being awful. If they just randomly deleted the BoS talent and left us with GA/obliteration and we all switched to those, we would literally do 0 damage.

BoS doesn't have to be a bad spell for the others to be picked. They just have to not be terrible choices. BoS doesn't have to be bad for the other 2 options to be good, they can easily buff/change the other talents to provide the same damage as bos if they wanted to, and almost everyone would go with those over BoS because they would be the significantly easier option.

Honestly, I don't even know why you guys cry about this so much. Go to a target dummy and practice with it for an hour and get good at the class instead of going to forums and asking for the class you play to be nerfed so that everyone playing it can then perform as badly as you do. A tiny bit of complexity is added to the spec which results in top tier damage and all of a sudden people get upset that they can no longer play the melee version of a bm hunter. Lets be honest, you all did mediocre damage with MG back in EN, and you still do the same now in NH with MG. The only difference is, others playing the same spec can now actually do real damage with different talents that you don't want to play with and that upsets you.

[Deleted]

was bad enough that there was always a frost vs unholy thing going on, but now there is a frost vs frost thing lul.

[Deleted]

Interesting discussion here.

Just my 2 cents, i intentionally take away the "fun factor" (well some ppl enjoy fishing...)

I fully agree with the opener post, also don't like BOS playstyle, it naturally forces you to play bad, skipping some mechanics or letting them for your teammates and transforming frost dks into a pets tied to the current boss.

I have to give a point in that it's little bit more engaging and difficult, yes it is. But let's be serious, at the 3rd/4th try you know more or less the right time to deliver BOS. The risk is high, just praying for the boss to put hes shit in another player and not on you or not making a mistake and inform your raid leader "hey bro, for a minute don't count on me". The reward is not that high, some nice position in recount (nothing OP). And what's about the time outside the BOS window? 3 buttons and 0 dps...

It's not only due to BOS but also being slow like turtles and having poor raid utilities that im not enjoying much frost DK these days.

I also have to agree that the other options (MG or OBRA or whatever...) should be at least viable. Is not about nerfing BOS, but balance the others and let us have choices (some may prefer easiest/hardest playstile, or even better depending on the encounter like other classes do)

[Raiz]

I absolutely love to have a little complexity on a spec, but BoS ? Not so much. What pisses me off more though is the visuals effects. Reminds me of Rushing Jade Wind from BrM... I didn't even take it in skittish weeks because of how annoying that spell was. And BoS is the same : you can't see sh.t about what is in the ground.

I'm also doing piss poor dps because I don't have 4 sets nor any frost legendary. It's kind of annoying to see that your BoS can hardly last longer than 20 sec. It's even worse when your HrW is on CD. I'm still debating whether I should choose between Freezing Fog or Horn of Winter for a few extra second of BoS... But since I'm mostly a m+, I'm gonna choose the safest route.

I'm trying. I really want to play BoS, but right now, I don't have a lot of affinities. I'd rather play with GA or Obliteration if I had the chance but most of the time I have BoS, except I almost never use this talent for everyday questing / m+ (only bosses).

[RuneDK]

outside of Feral, Unholy and well played BoS Frost are the two most challenging DPS melee specs.

Technically DK would be the class for you if thats what you wanted for now in a melee.

If we're talking WoD BoS then I'd agree with you....Breath is pretty simple to play in Legion though....a lot of it comes down to legendaries and RE/ME/Rime procs. Assuming no ring/belt legendaries and not picking up horn you can get a minute long breath if you get lucky. It's not likely but certainly possible. With specific legendaries it gets easier. Is it harder than other melee specs, not with tier 19, but I would say enhance was actually harder to play at a higher level pre-T19 4PC. 4PC made it(enhance) pretty simple though.

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I absolutely love to have a little complexity on a spec, but BoS ? Not so much. What pisses me off more though is the visuals effects. Reminds me of Rushing Jade Wind from BrM... I didn't even take it in skittish weeks because of how annoying that spell was. And BoS is the same : you can't see sh.t about what is in the ground.

I'm also doing piss poor dps because I don't have 4 sets nor any frost legendary. It's kind of annoying to see that your BoS can hardly last longer than 20 sec. It's even worse when your HrW is on CD. I'm still debating whether I should choose between Freezing Fog or Horn of Winter for a few extra second of BoS... But since I'm mostly a m+, I'm gonna choose the safest route.

I'm trying. I really want to play BoS, but right now, I don't have a lot of affinities. I'd rather play with GA or Obliteration if I had the chance but most of the time I have BoS, except I almost never use this talent for everyday questing / m+ (only bosses).

Stop running the game on a potato then? I run on custom settings, but they are mostly around the 7 level of the slider and I can see everything perfectly. fine.