Not happy with how Legion rolled out.

[Akka]

Except i am living proof that you are wrong.

No, you're a single case. That's not a proof, that's an anecdote.
If you were to consider yourself a proof I'm wrong, then I could simply point at the OP as a proof I'm right. Which wouldn't be very conclusive, would it be ?

It was absolutely terrible for small guilds like mine, that had sadly a high turnover. We had to do Karazhan in BC, then we manage to kill one boss of Zul'Aman, one week, one member left for any reason, needed a new one, back into Kara other 2-3 week, back to ZA; rinse and repeat.

Never again.

It did suck for small guilds without a strong core, yeah. The tighter ones had much less troubles, and at least it made for an actually active community when guilds were relevant.

[Thorbalt]

This patch sucks really bad. The only important part about it is having flying back now. Flying has made this patch for me.

you made so many compelling arguments and well reasoned, logical arguments that i am compelled to agree with you!!!



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or is it just that you think the patch sucks because you cant blow through it in 5 hours and go complaining that there isnt any good content in the patch to do?

[Deleted]

So why are you salty about free 880 gear? What's the harm in giving people free gear that isn't even on NH HC level? I'm a casual myself. And for me, 880 gear = vendor thrash. So why are you being salty about new/returning people being allowed free 880 gear?

Well lets see. It makes older content absolote. And everything you have done befor 880 gear completly lost its value? Whats even point doing raids befor last patch when we knew there will be easy catch up gear anway so why bother to struggle trought content just to see all that work be completly wasted?

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Well when people isn't bold enough to admit they are wrong they usually come with such response like this, not surprising. When people come with actual proof of a claim like I did(and someone else also came with links)

If you played in TBC you know how the badgesystem worked. And it was enough to do heroic 5mans and karazan to get lots of badgegear(equal to ZA and BT-gear) so more people could do BT and catch up to Sunwell-progression. So my first response in this very thread was pointing this out. Then some other dudes say its false and bring points into the discussion wich I didn't bother answering because thats not what you wrote about. There was some catch up with gear in TBC and they brought that forward in wotlk and so on. People claiming something else does not know what they talk about. The badgesystem in TBC is the base idea wich they brought forward in the other expansion and all the way to Legion. Wich they worked upon and around, did some changes etc. Guess I had to clarify that.

So either you talked about vanilla only or you were wrong. Simple as that. And its not a bad thing to be wrong once in a while.

Case closed.

Haha did you even checked those vendors? They offered barely any gear. Like 2-3 items max. Thats nothing. And gear in TBC wasnt so inlfated like it is now. You could easyl go progress t5 and t6 raids with t4 gear becouse difference in gear wasnt so huge. Now 1 tier is almost twice more power for us than entire TBC expansion together thanks to difficulty levels.

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So no badge-gear in tbc?

Check your "factuallity" because catch-up gear has been like this since TBC. Check the vendor at QD and Shattrat and search up when they were added.

Easier today and in WoD sure, but when people imply that there wasn't any gear you could get through badge-vendors as early as in TBC thats just not true.

Check that gear from badge vendor befor you posrt something. There is literaly 2-3 max items max for each armor type. TBC never catch you up with entire set.

[Doffen]

Haha did you even checked those vendors? They offered barely any gear. Like 2-3 items max. Thats nothing. And gear in TBC wasnt so inlfated like it is now. You could easyl go progress t5 and t6 raids with t4 gear becouse difference in gear wasnt so huge. Now 1 tier is almost twice more power for us than entire TBC expansion together thanks to difficulty levels.

Check that gear from badge vendor befor you posrt something. There is literaly 2-3 max items max for each armor type. TBC never catch you up with entire set.

I never said that it would make you catch up the entire set. From the last post I wrote I wrote just as an example "one to five items" I could have written 2-3 too, but you get the idea. I don't even have to check the badge vendors, cause I played in TBC, and lots of it as well, I know about those. I am linking it because people don't seem to know how it was back then.

You know you needed full set of tier6(and offpieces) from BT/MH/that to even progress far into Sunwell right? Tanks without full set of gear from BT/MH was mostly too weak to survive the tankdamage. The QL-vendor had strong pieces you could use to improve yourself, and if you came from a social guild with lesser ilvl, you could possible use 6-8 pieces from those two vendors. And yes, you had to do farm BT/MH as well, but you farm NH hc to get better for NH M now as well. That has never changed. The big change now is because of different levels of difficulty as you just said. And yes its alot easier to get gear from both raids and world pve now. Good luck getting full tierset from nethershards tho. Gear was even more important then, now you also have artifactweapon. We can skip Legion and compare it to WoD instead, still the different isn't big on how impactful the gear is. The numbers are just so massively different, not the actual power-increase.

If you use % instead of numbers you will see the difference isn't that big. Taking some numbers wich might not be 100% accurate, but its around that.
From Karazhan were 600-800dps was generally the damage on bosses, you ended up around 3k(more as well) in sunwell. Thats around 400% difference. In legion we did like 400k in EN, now we do up to 1mill in NH(most does not tho, not even near that) Its not more than 250 % power-increase. And even if we do 2mill dps in argus raid, the power-difference around the same as in TBC. But its not the same system now as you said. To compare it to TBC-system(one difficulty) If people went from Normal EN to normal NH, the difference in damage would be even less. If I would do ONLY normal now from EN to last raid in argus, the power you get from gear is less than what you got from Karazhan to Sunwell in TBC.

Its just another time now. The MAIN POINT is that there was some sort of catch-up on gear in TBC. Legion is the expansion were its far easiest of all expansion to get gear. No one is saying other wise.

[Softbottom]

you made so many compelling arguments and well reasoned, logical arguments that i am compelled to agree with you!!!



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or is it just that you think the patch sucks because you cant blow through it in 5 hours and go complaining that there isnt any good content in the patch to do?

There really is no compelling content for me to do this patch. If there was I wouldn't have posted anything. There is literally nothing rewarding from any of the content that is available in 7.2 other than getting flying back. More WQ's on a boring island. Invasions which after you have done them once there is no reason to do them again. The 3 contribution towers are not compelling at all. I don't like the challenge skin so I'm not bothering and I don't find solo challenges fun; I play an MMO to play with people not by myself. The AP bonus loot chance is really the only beneficial thing from the contributions. The World boss loot doesn't yield upgrades for me because they stats on the gear suck for fury or I already have better gear. The + chance at returning your coin use is whatever. The new TOS dungeon is pointless after running it a few times. I don't do pet battles.

All there is for me to do this patch is to farm more AP for my weapon and continue raiding NH. Guess what? That was all available before 7.2

[Deleted]

Well lets see. It makes older content absolote. And everything you have done befor 880 gear completly lost its value? Whats even point doing raids befor last patch when we knew there will be easy catch up gear anway so why bother to struggle trought content just to see all that work be completly wasted?

Because raiding is fun. If you don't have fun raiding, WoW PVE is not the game for you. Gear is a progression patch to tackle more difficult content. It's not the endgoal.

[Azgraal]

And those of us who like how things are panning out should care why?

[Deleted]

No, you're a single case. That's not a proof, that's an anecdote.
If you were to consider yourself a proof I'm wrong, then I could simply point at the OP as a proof I'm right. Which wouldn't be very conclusive, would it be ?

I'm not really sure what you're not understanding.
Are you not understanding how important returning players are to keep WoW alive?
Are you not understanding that in 2017 returning players expect to get into current content, and wouldn't return to a subscription fee game if they had to struggle through months of catching up?

Either of these are very clear to understand things. If you're refusing to understand them, or are unable to, i can't help you.

[Akka]

I'm not really sure what you're not understanding.
Are you not understanding how important returning players are to keep WoW alive?
Are you not understanding that in 2017 returning players expect to get into current content, and wouldn't return to a subscription fee game if they had to struggle through months of catching up?

Either of these are very clear to understand things. If you're refusing to understand them, or are unable to, i can't help you.

It just seems you've been so conditionned to today's WoW design you're unable to see past it, and are the one unable to understand.
If a player returns monthes or years later, he has not completed the previous content, so it's not about "struggling monthes to catch up", it's about "progressing through content". It's not because someone joining in 2006 didn't start right away with Naxx or AQ40 that he felt "left behind" - he had the whole rest of the content to actually discover and progress through.

This idea that only the latest raid is content, and everything before is obsolete, is precisely the problem of the design that "catch-up" create. Without them, there is no more said problem, and it's no more "obsolete content".

[Ratyrel]

This idea that only the latest raid is content, and everything before is obsolete, is precisely the problem of the design that "catch-up" create. Without them, there is no more said problem, and it's no more "obsolete content".

We had this in TBC and it was awful. The way it is now is much less deterring.

[Deleted]

There was a time when you actually simply had to do the content instead of having catch-up left and right.
Meant that content lasted much longer, and accomplishments stayed relevant, and as such the game felt more rewarding and didn't go into programmed obsolescence. But that was too good of a design to be kept, it seems.

It also made getting new raiders a chore to run through old content which is why a system so shit was scrapped in the long run.

[Polybius]

I totally agree, but that's precisely an absolutely abysmal failure of their system - rampant ilvl inflation is probably the number one bad design in WoW today, and Blizzard seems totally unable to manage a different approach despite having a model that worked before.

Inb4 they add a 5th difficulty...

[Deleted]

And those of us who like how things are panning out should care why?

How would it affect you if the content was all available at once? You could still do it at your own pace, there is no hurry since the raid wont be out until June.

The current system however punishes those who like to do it at their own pace. The alternative however would not punish those who like it how it is now.

[Deleted]

It just seems you've been so conditionned to today's WoW design you're unable to see past it, and are the one unable to understand.
If a player returns monthes or years later, he has not completed the previous content, so it's not about "struggling monthes to catch up", it's about "progressing through content". It's not because someone joining in 2006 didn't start right away with Naxx or AQ40 that he felt "left behind" - he had the whole rest of the content to actually discover and progress through.

This idea that only the latest raid is content, and everything before is obsolete, is precisely the problem of the design that "catch-up" create. Without them, there is no more said problem, and it's no more "obsolete content".

I give up. I've explained it to you in simple words and simple terms. Yet you refuse, or are unable, to understand it.

[Eygon]

I read enough posts on mmo-champion now to say wow has 3 types of players (lol i know it isn't just these 3, but on the foruns it looks like):

1 - OMG they don't give me easy/free stuff, wtf this is too hard f*** you blizzard, i'm unsubbing

2 - OMG i played a lot and did hardcore stuff and now casuals are getting the same thing as me for "no effort", f*** you blizzard, I did hardcore things because I WANTED TO DO IT and now you give them the same stuff?

3 - Lol look at those guys fighting and screaming *grabs popcorn*

People need to understand that not everything needs to be easy or super hard. You need to look at yourself: "i want that, what do i have to do? This hard thing. Ok, i did it, i have it." Done. Stop looking what others are getting, play for yourself not to show off to others. "I want a cookie, i'll work, get the money and buyt it. But hey, that kid got one too, her mother bought it, why is this store letting her have it so easliy". Stop that for the love of anything you believe. You got amazing gear 2 months before everybody doing whatever you did. Great for you, you have it, it doesn't matter if others have it too and how they got it (unless blizz starts just: ok, $10 for 890 gear...go!). I just can't understand the urge to be "better" (because you have good gear, or a rare mount...anything). "I have this, but others are getting so this is trash now".

The same goes the other way, not because hardcore players are getting something that you need to be: "omg blizz, i can't raid, give me the gear already, f*** this game, gibe monei plox" Try it, wait for more high gear and try it again, wait until next exp and farm it (well some things you won't be able to transmog or get aftet this exp is over, but..that's where you need to see if it's something you really "need" or not).

Blizz is trying to please all kind of players, not really doing for anyone and maybe not even for themselves. They can't really do what they want with the game because some part of the playerbase may not like it and leave (and well, that's blizz choice..do what they want or what others want, in case they are not the same..we are the costumers but they are the artists). For me the best case would be "here's the stuff, normal difficulty..if yet this way you can't get it, i'm sorry but that's the way it is. You can get it, cool ^^. Oh, you can get it but you think it's too easy, here's a hardcore mode where you will get nothing more for it (maybe and achievement that goes away once the hardcore state of that becomes normal), but you wanted to be hard to prove yourself that you can, here it is".

Maybe this would not work out, idk. But i guess i'm just wanting a better world/community where people help each other, not just flame everyone and the game because they are not as happy as they wanted. No, i don't hate the game , i didn't like 7.2 and i'm not really sure how i like/dislike Legion xD.

Wow i talked a lot in here. This will be my only contribution to the foruns. Feel free to agree or desagree (you can curse me too if you like, i know some will anyway lol), that's just my opinion and i am far from being the right one or the wrong one. The message is: "Make love, not Warcraft" ! Goodbye good people . (waiting on the "too long didn't read" posts xD)

[Azgraal]

How would it affect you if the content was all available at once? You could still do it at your own pace, there is no hurry since the raid wont be out until June.

The current system however punishes those who like to do it at their own pace. The alternative however would not punish those who like it how it is now.

My comment was directed to OP saying that HE is not happy how it turned out, so things must change. Staggered release vs full release gated by rep would be the same to me, I just found his sense of entitlement idiotic.

[Deleted]

And those of us who like how things are panning out should care why?

Cat as an avatar, I feel compelled to agree with you

[Akka]

I give up. I've explained it to you in simple words and simple terms. Yet you refuse, or are unable, to understand it.

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing - even after I spelled it for you, it seems it fly hiiiiiigh past your head.

[Samesnotatroll]

Because you said it wasnt anything like this before? And first thing I know it was some catch-up mechanics on gear was in TBC?

Seems I am not doing anything like you accuse me for.

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Fine, as I pointed out in an edited post, just after that post is that is easier now and in WoD yeah, but the main point is that he said what I wrote to Akka was incorrect, and it wasn't. Wasn't refering to that 1 week at all. And he brought that up on my first post here, not me. So thats not something I need to defend or anything.

Pipboi actually said it did NOT exist back then. Wich is false.

Shall I link those vendors again?

You still are out of context with the conversation. There were denials of catch up gear mechanic in vanilla, not TBC

[fixit]

no, it doesnt. maybe you cant be bothered to look at everything on the official website, or the forums, or read for that matter, but things are clearly explained in multiple places.

yes, only a complete moron would think that with the power growth going on this xpac things wont get more difficult as time goes on. and you go into M+ knowing full well they are designed to push your limits to the extreme


OH GOD THE HORROR, you wont get to see every single thing in an invasion that will be going on FOR FUCKING MONTHS. get over it


again, things get stronger as we get stronger. kinda how an rpg works


hey, great idea. lets just completely fuck over anyone who wants to join later in the game life cycle, or anyone who wants to level any one of several alts. GREAT FUCKING PLAN MORON


Because it is

BULL. FUCKING. SHIT.

the game is designed with alt activity in mind, which is why the content to do at max level is so accessible to all. deal with it

Please continue on your path of anger and insults, life has a way of teaching people such as yourself very harsh lessons. The worst breakdown and replies i've seen, must be either a very young teen, special in the head, or plain stupid. My guess is you are all three.