United overbooked a flight so they dragged a passenger off the plane

[May90]

It absolutely is. At some point you reach a natural equilibrium between the cost of compensation vs the cost of an empty seat.

What I'm talking about is this effect. Someone sues McDonalds for being burned by hot coffee. The company decides to avoid all the fuss and pays off $5000 for the person to calm down. Next week, hundreds people "get burned" by hot coffee and demand $5000 worth of compensation...

In this particular case, what could happen is, in cases of overbooking, people could start demanding a much larger compensation than 4x the original price. This kind of risks should be taken into account. I am not an economist and cannot assess the potential damage, but the company's specialists could.

[Kellhound]

What I'm talking about is this effect. Someone sues McDonalds for being burned by hot coffee. The company decides to avoid all the fuss and pays off $5000 for the person to calm down. Next week, hundreds people "get burned" by hot coffee and demand $5000 worth of compensation...

In this particular case, what could happen is, in cases of overbooking, people could start demanding a much larger compensation than 4x the original price. This kind of risks should be taken into account. I am not an economist and cannot assess the potential damage, but the company's specialists could.

That only comes into play if people dont jump at earlier deals.

[Deleted]

What I'm talking about is this effect. Someone sues McDonalds for being burned by hot coffee. The company decides to avoid all the fuss and pays off $5000 for the person to calm down. Next week, hundreds people "get burned" by hot coffee and demand $5000 worth of compensation...

In this particular case, what could happen is, in cases of overbooking, people could start demanding a much larger compensation than 4x the original price. This kind of risks should be taken into account. I am not an economist and cannot assess the potential damage, but the company's specialists could.

Your comparison is flawed, because you're comparing a zero-sum game to a scenario where other people getting burned doesn't impact your case. If they overbook x seats, there's only x amount of compensations they can hand out, so we have a situation where there's inherently some form of competition to relinquish your seat, given y compensation.

[sonololo]

I work for a tour operator with its own airline, and we have this thing called stand-by seats for employees: IF there's an empty seat on a flight, you can take it for a low price or even for free (depending on your tenure). IF that seat is taken by a paying customer, you have to wait until there is an empty seat.

Yes. That's a ZED fare, and it works exactly like you described. It has lowest priority, and its in fact stand-by seat.

So, prioritizing ZED fare tickets above normal passengers is a violation of ZED agreement.

[I Push Buttons]

Yes. That's a ZED fare, and it works exactly like you described. It has lowest priority, and its in fact stand-by seat.

So, prioritizing ZED fare tickets above normal passengers is a violation of ZED agreement.

Only this wasn't that... These weren't employees using the fact that they were employees to get cheap leftover seats... These were employees on the clock that needed to be ferried to a job.

[Deleted]

Scandalous! I'd sue the shit out of those pricks.

[Deleted]

Typically when they overbook, they don't let all the passengers board the plane. I'm thinking that there is a little more to the story than "Kentucky Sports Radio" reported.

Only this wasn't that... These weren't employees using the fact that they were employees to get cheap leftover seats... These were employees on the clock that needed to be ferried to a job.

Apparently there were some last minute extra passengers (United employees) that needed to fly. And since United employees have important jobs they can't wait a flight. This doctor on the other hand, totally unimportant, he can wait a day. /s

The empty seat excuse is a load of BS by the way. My sister in law had to cancel a trip three days before the flight and ... no refund. Therefore people not showing up and their seat being empty does not mean the airline doesn't get paid. They basically gamble and when they lose they make a paying customer pay for it. It's really unconscionable. (I went instead of my sister in law and had to pay 50% of the ticket price just to get the name changed; scamming sobs!)

I've never been on a United flight where they haven't asked for volunteers because they overbooked. Although my flights have been pleasant enough, United are just a bunch of overselling crooks.

[Deleted]

I've never been on a United flight where they haven't asked for volunteers because they overbooked. Although my flights have been pleasant enough, United are just a bunch of overselling crooks.

Must be more aggressive commercial practices in the US then. I have never been on a flight where customers have been asked to pass up their seat. Ever. And I fly weekly for work with mostly KLM, Brussels Airlines, Swiss and Scandinavian.

And if they do, they'd probably discreetly inquire at the gate and certainly not after customers board and seat.

[Wyrt]

Must be more aggressive commercial practices in the US then. I have never been on a flight where customers have been asked to pass up their seat. Ever. And I fly weekly for work with mostly KLM, Brussels Airlines, Swiss and Scandinavian.

And if they do, they'd probably discreetly inquire at the gate and certainly not after customers board and seat.

I assume more civilized countries would discourage this kind of behavior.

[Kailith]

I'm just going to sit wherever I want next time and refuse to comply. Then cry foul and threaten to sue when I'm forcibly removed. It always amazes me how "muh rights" only apply to idiots who misbehave. No one has the right to refuse to deboard a plane when told to.

Which is exactly the problem, that statement. Intentionally overbooking a plane because people "might not show up" is a terrible excuse and really should be punished. You shouldn't be able to promise services and then take them away after a monetary transaction occurs. I understand they are trying to pay for their mistake a little bit but people NEED to be on their flight sometimes, and a fucking doctor is a pretty damn good reason. The whole situation was done horribly, and this whole story is going to bite them in the ass hard.

[Deleted]

In Europe we don't have overbooking, but tickets cannot be refunded.

You can instead purchase an insurance that pays you back if you won't make it.

[Amalaric]

America seems more and more like commie Russia in 50's.

[Deleted]

Must be more aggressive commercial practices in the US then. I have never been on a flight where customers have been asked to pass up their seat. Ever. And I fly weekly for work with mostly KLM, Brussels Airlines, Swiss and Scandinavian.

And if they do, they'd probably discreetly inquire at the gate and certainly not after customers board and seat.

I've never had it happen with other airlines either, over the years I've flown BA/AA/KLM/Qatar/Icelandair/Air Transat.

I'll never fly Air Transat again btw. I didn;t fit in their chairs... They tried to blame it om my weight, but the chair armrests actually bent sideways on my hipbone! No amount of weightloss will naroow my bones :X The armrests of my seat were broken and fixed in the down position! The constant pressure broke my skin and caused bleeding; I refused to sit down. I had words with them because they wouldn't allow my to remain standing and had no alternative seating. Had to threaten to sue them because of the physical harm their broken plane was causing me before they relented.

In Europe we don't have overbooking, but tickets cannot be refunded.
You can instead purchase an insurance that pays you back if you won't make it.

We have overbooking in Europe too. European airlines just seem to be a bit more conservative. That may have to do with the fact that they(and non EU airlines) have to pay you cash, not vouchers, when they bump you! On a flight to the US leaving the EU the amount is € 600 cash! And the airline is still obliged to get you on another flight. The same is true when flying on an EU airline to the EU.

You only have no EU based rights when flying with a non EU airline to the EU.

[Akka]

Yeah man, you got me, IRL I throw tantrums all the time

Hint : acting like a brainless drone without doesn't make you mature.

[Raelbo]

Intentionally overbooking a plane because people "might not show up" is a terrible excuse and really should be punished.

Fair enough, but then expect airfaires to increase accordingly. The reality is that we all benefit due to this practice, the consequence being a very small chance that we might be inconvenienced, for which we'll even be fairly compensated.

You shouldn't be able to promise services and then take them away after a monetary transaction occurs.

Airlines never promise services. There is always a chance that a flight could be delayed or cancelled, or that the occasional passenger may need to be deferred. For this reason they have contingency plans to compensate passengers when this happens.

I understand they are trying to pay for their mistake a little bit but people NEED to be on their flight sometimes, and a fucking doctor is a pretty damn good reason. The whole situation was done horribly, and this whole story is going to bite them in the ass hard.

Personally I think this incident is disturbing for different reasons. It shows an incredible level of narcissism on the part of the public. Every single passenger on that flight (that's what, like 200 people) all felt they were so important that they refused to comply with a reasonable request?

Yes, a perfectly reasonable request. To accept free hotel accomodation and $800 in return for waiting an extra day. Fair, enough, no one really wanted to do that, but at the same time someone needed to. Sorry, but what we have here is plane full of people operating with the mental maturity of toddlers instead of like responsible, sensible, rational adults. Had I been on that flight I would have taken the $800. Not for the money, but because it was apparent that someone needed to step up and stop pretending to be a special snowflake that desperately needed to get to his/her destination.

What is absolutely shocking is that all those passengers would rather sit there and video the incident than just fucking volunteer to help to make the situation work out. You say that being a doctor is a pretty good reason to take that flight. Why didn't any of the other passengers, upon hearing this information, volunteer themselves instead?

I am not applauding the fact that the passenger was injured, but at the same time, what the fuck was the airline expected to do? They couldn't fly with the number of people who wanted to be on board. Someone had to get off, and when no one was willing to be reasonable, they had to choose randomly. But the guy refused. At some point force was going to have to be used, or the plane simply wouldn't have moved.

But yeah, in hindsight, the best move for the airline would have been this: Instruct the passengers that the aircraft would stay put until they got enough volunteers. Let the passengers "randomly" select one of their own and then watch the mob enforce the removal.

[Noradin]

Oh, you mean like their Contract of Carriage you agree to? Gotcha covered.
I *especially* like the part where it says "with a maximum of 1350 USD".

"Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarily"
He was already onboard, so he wasn't denied boarding.

[Puri]

In Europe we don't have overbooking, but tickets cannot be refunded.

You can instead purchase an insurance that pays you back if you won't make it.

Err what? Of course overbooking is standard procedure for every airline in the world, there are even EU rules covering it (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...x%3A32004R0261), and as usual for international transportation they are very similar to the US ones, only the compensations differ:

Article 4

Denied boarding

1. When an operating air carrier reasonably expects to deny boarding on a flight, it shall first call for volunteers to surrender their reservations in exchange for benefits under conditions to be agreed between the passenger concerned and the operating air carrier. Volunteers shall be assisted in accordance with Article 8, such assistance being additional to the benefits mentioned in this paragraph.

2. If an insufficient number of volunteers comes forward to allow the remaining passengers with reservations to board the flight, the operating air carrier may then deny boarding to passengers against their will.

3. If boarding is denied to passengers against their will, the operating air carrier shall immediately compensate them in accordance with Article 7 and assist them in accordance with Articles 8 and 9.

[gilfanon]

What I'm talking about is this effect. Someone sues McDonalds for being burned by hot coffee. The company decides to avoid all the fuss and pays off $5000 for the person to calm down. Next week, hundreds people "get burned" by hot coffee and demand $5000 worth of compensation...

This old 'Woman sues McDonalds for hot coffee' canard really needs to die a death. In the case you're referring to McDonalds kept their coffee at a temperature they knew was hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns for 'quality control purposes' - i.e. so they didn't have to occasionally throw away a pot of coffee and hit their profits. The woman in question was an elderly lady who suffered 3rd degree burns to 6% of her body and required skin grafts to replace melted flesh, as well as at-home nursing care, she didn't just have a burn that required running under cold water. McDonalds lost the case because most customers quite reasonably don't think the coffee that they buy there is going to be hot enough to require 6% of your flesh to be replaced if you spill it.

If the effect of lawsuits like that is that companies no longer put profit before the safety of their customers (exactly as per the United incident- we'd rather smash your face in than risk one of flights having to be rebooked), then they should abso-fucking-lutely have their asses sued, and if it hits their bottom line because they're getting sued all the time, guess what, they'll stop doing it.

[cuafpr]

What I'm talking about is this effect. Someone sues McDonalds for being burned by hot coffee. The company decides to avoid all the fuss and pays off $5000 for the person to calm down. Next week, hundreds people "get burned" by hot coffee and demand $5000 worth of compensation...

In this particular case, what could happen is, in cases of overbooking, people could start demanding a much larger compensation than 4x the original price. This kind of risks should be taken into account. I am not an economist and cannot assess the potential damage, but the company's specialists could.

doesn't work either cause person has to sign NDA about how much the settle for and McDonalds does XYZ to prevent it happening again so the next person that tries wont get the same deal.

This guy will get money if he wants it, United will offer it up to avoid the continued bad PR esp with summer vacations soonish

[Noradin]

I am not applauding the fact that the passenger was injured, but at the same time, what the fuck was the airline expected to do? They couldn't fly with the number of people who wanted to be on board. Someone had to get off, and when no one was willing to be reasonable, they had to choose randomly. But the guy refused. At some point force was going to have to be used, or the plane simply wouldn't have moved.

Well, since it wasn't simply a case of not having enough places for all those passagers who paid for the flight and did show up but a case of the airline wanting to shift in some extra passengers last minute they should just have continued to offer more money until they got volunteers for their last special last minute passengers they wanted to get in.