New Expansion is Expensive!

[Mahourai]

Sorry, let me state it more clearly: the numbers you posted were posted in a way that makes it seem more than it is. 14,000 gold, omgwow. You realize that's less than 5000 gold per expansion?

That's a lot of fucking packs my man, yeah. You bought almost four times as many packs of Un'goro as I did and I saved for a solid month.

Even if you say that Blizzard gives you 10 free packs, do you think that buying 60 packs when an expansion goes live is enough to continuously craft top-tier decks for a newer player?

Who was talking about new players? I'm talking about you, the guy who plays this game every day.

I never said I couldn't build good decks.

You never said those exact words but yes, you did say you couldn't build good decks.

The guy you're quoting says "...you can farm enough gold to get good decks without spending real money." You reply "And for all that effort, I barely have enough to craft a few mediocre decks. Few meaning 2-4. Maybe." Quite clearly what you were saying is even your ridiculous investment wasn't enough to get good decks without money, because your investment only "barely" let you "craft a few mediocre decks". So yes, you did say that.

I can make a few mediocre decks that might win below rank 15, and if I spent the resources I could netdeck a few top-tier decks.

Rank 15? You can probably reach legend with a Zoo deck with 0 new cards. I'm playing an untuned list I threw together myself with exactly 1 new card, a common, at rank 8-7, and unchanged Pirate Warrior would have been even better. It has nothing to do with needing more resources.

As a reply the person I quoted in the original post that started this conversation, yes questing can build good decks (if you have a head start) but it's not like it magically makes you rich enough to own every quest.

Now the goalposts have moved from being able to make good decks to owning every one of the set's marquee legendaries.

[Deleted]

It means that while there can be a temporary increase in interest in Wild, it has to reach a peak then inevitably decline forever because the total of everyone's cards in the Wild pool will only go down as expansions roll out. I am just one example of that because I will eventually crack and disenchant all my Wild cards as Hearthstone becomes more expensive to keep up. Crafting backwards to fill out a Wild collection at the same time going forward as new cards come out is just not feasible.

I'm going to take all of that as a "no, I'm just making stuff up" answer to my question. It's all just based on the presumption that everybody is going to do the same as you, which they aren't. Conclusion, Wild is a perfectly viable format to play in, as I've said plenty of times before.

It is a big deal for me, throwing 800 dust (a decent amount) for 2 epics into Wild sets you back so far if your goal is to keep up with Standard us much as possible f2p.

If 800 is too much for you, then just craft one and substitute the second with another aoe. God knows priest has plenty of choices. Most of the time you're better off playing lightbomb as one off anyway.

[Sarevokcz]

You don't do arena? Just with 3-4 wins you are even, anything above that is a gain.

if everyone could play arena, they would. the truth is, for every player that goes 12 wins, there are up to 10 other guys, who went 0-2 wins, less than 50% of runs actually get even (ignoring the mostly useless dust or golden commons as rewards), regardless of the skill range in arena, even single person could be on a kolento level and half of them wouldnt be able to profit out of it

[Deleted]

As a reply to the thread, Hearthstone's new expansion is expensive.

As a reply the person I quoted in the original post that started this conversation, yes questing can build good decks (if you have a head start) but it's not like it magically makes you rich enough to own every quest.

It should get you pretty damn close though. The idea that you've been doing all of your quests daily for months on end and you can only craft "mediocre decks" just simply does not hold water. Either you are exaggerating or doing something wrong.

Here's a question (and I'm honestly asking seriously), how do you decide what cards to craft? Are you just arbitrarily looking at everything that is missing in your collection and picking something just to fill it up or are you prioritizing? Are you aggressively DE'ing your cards?

[shammypie]

The main focus is on the legendary quests which are at the core of the expansion and all the hype that's why it seems more expensive while the rarity distribution is actually still the same. The adapt mechanic is fun but the quests are dominating everything atm. In MSoG all you needed were Patches, Aya or Kazakus and you were good to go, anything else was a bonus.

that's because mean street was more about minion interaction while ungoro is about questing. Also to be honest mean street used just the same amount of legendaries but they were from adventure expansions i.e. reno and thaurissan. Altogether it took me around 300 packs to obtain/craft everything from this new expansion. The quest decks crush most everything that isn't a stream lined version of an older deck.

And it's awesome frankly. Mean streets saw everyone playing the same deck from release. It was a soul crushing expansion or plain boring cards, effects, and completely overpowered/power creeped. Now you see slightly more variety and more randomness thrown in. Granted rogue quest is super op right now but that will probably get balanced soon.

[Twoddle]

I'm going to take all of that as a "no, I'm just making stuff up" answer to my question. It's all just based on the presumption that everybody is going to do the same as you, which they aren't. Conclusion, Wild is a perfectly viable format to play in, as I've said plenty of times before.

The presumption is that over time more and more Wild cards get removed from the total of Wild cards everyone has because you can only craft them which is a fair presumption. Something has to give at some point to make Wild popular again once it goes past its peak.

[Deleted]

The presumption is that over time more and more Wild cards get removed from the total of Wild cards everyone has because you can only craft them which is a fair presumption.

I have no idea how you managed to come up with that conclusion. The fact that you cannot buy packs for the old expansions (hence you must craft them) only affects the rate at which players can acquire them but has nothing to do with decreasing the total amount of old cards they have, unless they are indiscriminately DE'ing what they already have but that just brings us back to unfounded presumptions.

[Twoddle]

I have no idea...

Because as explained in a previous post over time more veteran players especially the F2P ones will decide to DE their Wild collections and there are only a fixed number of veteran players with Wild cards from all sets. The presumption is that this DEing will outweigh new players crafting back into Wild. Therefore cards will slowly be removed from the total Wild cards in existence and hence Wild will reach a peak then decline.

What you're saying is that no one else will ever DE their old Wilds sets ever which is ludicrous.

[Blueobelisk]

Here's a question (and I'm honestly asking seriously), how do you decide what cards to craft? Are you just arbitrarily looking at everything that is missing in your collection and picking something just to fill it up or are you prioritizing? Are you aggressively DE'ing your cards?

I'm a long term player, I only craft necessary cards for a deck that I can 100% get. For example, when I wanted to make midrange shaman way back when, I had to craft Thunderbluff, Totem Golem, etc.

I'm actually sitting on like 6k dust, but I'm not going to spend it on just anything, yet. (As I said, I need Ice Block, Doomsayer, Tirion, Archmage, and a whole bunch of other shit. Long term, I should get those classic cards before getting standard expansion cards.)

I don't want to have to craft, say, the Rogue quest, and be locked in to that class for the next few years. I like to be able to play all classes at least somewhat reliably and try different decks.

Something has to give at some point to make Wild popular again once it goes past its peak.

I agree with Twoddle's assessment. Wild will eventually have too many cards and players who don't own everything will be edged out of the format.

- - - Updated - - -

Now the goalposts have moved from being able to make good decks to owning every one of the set's marquee legendaries.

I just want to have fun. Having fun isn't grinding to legend or having a 51% win rate, to me having fun is being able to play a few viable decks from different classes and not get crushed/outvalued.

It kind of sucks that Blizzard designs 11+ different playstyles this expansions (9 quests, 2 elemental decks) and as an ultimate F2P player, or even if I spent $10 a month or something, I'd never be able to try the decks. And that's not even including previous decks (zoo, pirates, jade) or other newer ones (handlock).

So once again, no, 5000 gold an expansion isn't enough. Maybe you're satisfied making a few netdecks. I'm not.

[caractacus]

Theres no logical reason to make a nzoth deck without the quest... You are playing death rattle minions.. Its like saying you are taking your reno out of the reno deck, but keep gimping yourself with only 1 kind of every card. So terrible fucking example on your side lol. Im not sure how the priest quest is just win more cards. First card draws/gain are always one of the better effect. The priest quest is also a reno that heals your to full hp + 10 extra permanent HP. So if you play nzoth... you are already gimping yourself to death rattle minions.

Just want to point out that Kibler is right now, as i post, playing a N'zoth non quest deck at legend on his stream but what does he know!

[Blueobelisk]

Just want to point out that Kibler is right now, as i post, playing a N'zoth non quest deck at legend on his stream but what does he know!

Just because someone streams, doesn't make them better than anyone else at this game. The average poster on this forum is like top 5% in the game when it comes to Hearthstone theorycrafting.

(I think the guy you mentioned casted too. Spending a few hours commenting on Draknoid Operative choices or feigning surprise at how fast aggro kills doesn't really impress me.)

(If you can even consider "someone is trying this deck" to equate too "he's playing it the best way imaginable".)

I agree with @Ouch. Not having the Quest in N'Zoth priest is dumb.

[caractacus]

Just because someone streams, doesn't make them better than anyone else at this game. The average poster on this forum is like top 5% in the game when it comes to Hearthstone theorycrafting.

Kibler doesn't "just stream"

[Deleted]

Because as explained in a previous post over time more veteran players especially the F2P ones will decide to DE their Wild collections ...

Why is that and more importantly, how do you know that?

What you're saying is that no one else will ever DE their old Wilds sets ever which is ludicrous.

No, what I'm saying is that a few guys DE'ing a few old cards is like taking a bucket of water out of the ocean. Technically the ocean has less water in it but practically that's completely irrelevant. Keep in mind, this game has many millions of players.

If you want to actually make a dent, you need two things to happen; 1) you need systemic, wide spread abandonment of old cards, and 2) you need it to happen inside a relatively short period of time. Wild is not just one or two old expansions, it is every expansion. Each year more expansions become Wild, which further supplements the wild-only card pool. Not only that but playing in the Wild doesn't mean playing exclusively with Wild only cards. More likely, you will mix the new and the old, which means you don't need to have every old expansion card in the game. Heck, even if you play with Wild only cards, you still don't need every old card.

Also this idea that veteran players are somehow a limited resource is not really true either; we were all new players during vanilla. Then fast forward a few expansions and suddenly we were veteran players. The same will be true for those who start today and in a couple years, after Ungoro has phased out, they will become veterans as well.

I agree with Twoddle's assessment. Wild will eventually have too many cards and players who don't own everything will be edged out of the format.

In that case how am I still playing Wild? I don't own everything either.

[Leadsop]

My 71 packs I opened at launch:

3 Legendary
15 Epic
5 Gold (all rarities)

rather disappointed.

[Deleted]

I'm a long term player, I only craft necessary cards for a deck that I can 100% get. For example, when I wanted to make midrange shaman way back when, I had to craft Thunderbluff, Totem Golem, etc.

I'm actually sitting on like 6k dust, but I'm not going to spend it on just anything, yet. (As I said, I need Ice Block, Doomsayer, Tirion, Archmage, and a whole bunch of other shit. Long term, I should get those classic cards before getting standard expansion cards.)

I don't want to have to craft, say, the Rogue quest, and be locked in to that class for the next few years. I like to be able to play all classes at least somewhat reliably and try different decks.

Sounds like you have plenty of resources, you just decide not to, based on some strange priority system of trying to have a little bit of everything.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Elemental handbuff Paly is one of the strogest decks rightnow and very cheep (~3-4k dust)

[shammypie]

In that case how am I still playing Wild? I don't own everything either.

TO address you and the other people you are arguing with.

1: by pure mathematics the number of wild cards increases every expansion way past the number of DE'd cards f2p players. The simple fact that commons are worthless guarantees this.

2: not everyone in this game is a F2P player. in fact the reason a f2p person can even enjoy this game is because there are people like me who buy cards. That said throwing a $10 at the game every once in a while does add up across many accounts which is how mobile games with microtransactions become so big.

3. If you are a f2p player and never spend money, what do you hope to accomplish in this game? Are you seeking legend or is it just a past time? If you can't afford it why not take on a part time job on the weekend for a couple weeks and save up money? Kids can usually find odd jobs if their motivated. If you don't have time, then maybe rethink your priorities. There are barriers in life for a reason, your suppose to figure out a way to overcome them and in so doing find what's really important.

4. Your not alone in thinking this expansion was expensive. I honestly prefer adventures because it is a flat rate for everything. That said, expansions are pretty fun to try out a dozen different decks and the ability to switch between them keeps the game feeling fresh. for instance i never like hunter, but it is quite hilarious to throw out a half dozen raptors with the quest.
(nostalgic rambling from the last few days)
The same with quest shaman when your opponent realizes they aren't going to wear you down. Heck even elemental shaman works pretty well with it's flexibility and I got a complete novice at the game to win with it. The best moment was when my opponent realized that sheeping my minion still makes it a 5/5 as quest rogue and the sudden concede.

5. tba

[Twoddle]

Why is that and more importantly, how do you know that?

By veterans I meant players who still have cards from ALL sets. This number can only go down it can never increase except by crafting.

No, what I'm saying is that a few guys DE'ing a few old cards is like taking a bucket of water out of the ocean. Technically the ocean has less water in it but practically that's completely irrelevant. Keep in mind, this game has many millions of players.

I see posts on reddit and hearthpwn everyday with people saying they disenchanted everything, this represents a tiny sample so the real number must be huge. Of course we don't know the numbers for sure so don't ask me for proof.

If you want to actually make a dent, you need two things to happen; 1) you need systemic, wide spread abandonment of old cards, and 2) you need it to happen inside a relatively short period of time. Wild is not just one or two old expansions, it is every expansion. Each year more expansions become Wild, which further supplements the wild-only card pool. Not only that but playing in the Wild doesn't mean playing exclusively with Wild only cards. More likely, you will mix the new and the old, which means you don't need to have every old expansion card in the game. Heck, even if you play with Wild only cards, you still don't need every old card.

Also this idea that veteran players are somehow a limited resource is not really true either; we were all new players during vanilla. Then fast forward a few expansions and suddenly we were veteran players. The same will be true for those who start today and in a couple years, after Ungoro has phased out, they will become veterans as well.

In that case how am I still playing Wild? I don't own everything either.

For me Wild is an all or nothing deal I won't do a partial disenchant and keep the "best cards". Once Target Dummy is disenchanted everything goes with it including all cards that rotate in the future and I will never look back. If you DE'd the Naxx & GvG but now want to play Wild with LoE BRM & TGT you're gimping yourself so I won't do that, might as well play Standard.

1: by pure mathematics the number of wild cards increases every expansion way past the number of DE'd cards f2p players. The simple fact that commons are worthless guarantees this.

This is true but the number of players with cards from ALL sets can only go down as more decide to disenchant to keep up with Standard especially with Hearthstone becoming more expensive and 3 full expansions a year.

2: not everyone in this game is a F2P player. in fact the reason a f2p person can even enjoy this game is because there are people like me who buy cards. That said throwing a $10 at the game every once in a while does add up across many accounts which is how mobile games with microtransactions become so big.

I will confess I am not totally F2P I bought 2 expansions with spare funds that were idling in Paypal and the Welcome Bundle last year. Nothing since OG and probably never will unless it's another cheap value bundle.

3. If you are a f2p player and never spend money, what do you hope to accomplish in this game? Are you seeking legend or is it just a past time? If you can't afford it why not take on a part time job on the weekend for a couple weeks and save up money? Kids can usually find odd jobs if their motivated. If you don't have time, then maybe rethink your priorities. There are barriers in life for a reason, your suppose to figure out a way to overcome them and in so doing find what's really important.

For now I'm happy doing quests and freerolling in arena. If I cashed in all my dust and bought packs with the rest of my gold I could actually craft a full Standard collection minus the trash if I wanted but that would put me behind saving up for the next expansion.

[Deleted]

By veterans I meant players who still have cards from ALL sets. This number can only go down it can never increase except by crafting.

It also happens to be an utterly inconsequential number, for all the reasons I explained. Woo-a!

I see posts on reddit and hearthpwn everyday with people saying they disenchanted everything, this represents a tiny sample so the real number must be huge. Of course we don't know the numbers for sure so don't ask me for proof.

That is precisely what it is, an absolutely tiny sample that means nothing, and exactly what you don't have proof. Just wild conjectures with zero basis in reality.

For me Wild is an all or nothing deal I won't do a partial disenchant and keep the "best cards". Once Target Dummy is disenchanted everything goes with it including all cards that rotate in the future and I will never look back.

That's your prerogative but that is just you. It has nothing to do with anybody else.

[Blueobelisk]

Sounds like you have plenty of resources, you just decide not to, based on some strange priority system of trying to have a little bit of everything.

Yes, finally. Someone gets it.

I'm not pigeonholing myself into only being able to play a certain class/style. That's what shortsighted people do.

2: not everyone in this game is a F2P player. in fact the reason a f2p person can even enjoy this game is because there are people like me who buy cards. That said throwing a $10 at the game every once in a while does add up across many accounts which is how mobile games with microtransactions become so big.

??? We all know that Blizzard needs money to pay developers and keep servers up. I'm not sure what the point of this was supposed to be.

3. If you are a f2p player and never spend money, what do you hope to accomplish in this game? Are you seeking legend or is it just a past time? If you can't afford it why not take on a part time job on the weekend for a couple weeks and save up money? Kids can usually find odd jobs if their motivated. If you don't have time, then maybe rethink your priorities. There are barriers in life for a reason, your suppose to figure out a way to overcome them and in so doing find what's really important.

If I wanted to gamble, I'd go to Las Vegas. Not spend it on Hearthstone packs so I can open up the worthless cards Blizzard prints.