New Rift Starter Pack on Steam for 5 Euro/Dollars

[Slipmat]

So after quoting and linking numerous articles that all agree that Free to Play means the base game is free and additional microtransactions like new Expansions, DLCs, levels etc are paid for, you still say it isn't? bwahahahahah and as for now trying to say FF14 and WoW are F2P because they offer a limited trial period where you're fixed to a certain level and have restrictions placed on you?

Double bwahahahahahah, you guys are really grasping at straws now, still waiting for any of you to provide me links that what i call the definition of F2P and my links say is the definition are totally wrong.

[Eleccybubb]

So after quoting and linking numerous articles that all agree that Free to Play means the base game is free and additional microtransactions like new Expansions, DLCs, levels etc are paid for, you still say it isn't? bwahahahahah and as for now trying to say FF14 and WoW are F2P because they offer a limited trial period where you're fixed to a certain level and have restrictions placed on you?

Double bwahahahahahah, you guys are really grasping at straws now, still waiting for any of you to provide me links that what i call the definition of F2P and my links say is the definition are totally wrong.

And after someone linked you an article from the lead dev saying they were going back to the B2P model for now you choose to ignore that as well? TO FULLY EXPERIENCE RIFT YOU NEED TO BUY IT. Not sure how hard that is to understand. It is a glorified trial. It's a heavily monetized P2W/B2P/F2P game and the choices they have made is the reason they no longer are the best F2P/B2P model.

You really don't like being proven wrong do you? Just like the Gamebryo thing you were linked evidence and you swept it under the rug. If it's anything critical of Trion let's just ignore it. Because that's done the game so well right? Oh wait not listening to those people and releasing awful quality content is the reason they barely have any players any more.

http://steamcharts.com/app/39120

Went upto 900 for 4.1 and then right back down again. Guess it's no better on the live client. What that tells me is 4.1 failed at bringing new players back and even more are quitting since a lot of raiders are bored out of their skull.

[Lathais]

So after quoting and linking numerous articles that all agree that Free to Play means the base game is free and additional microtransactions like new Expansions, DLCs, levels etc are paid for, you still say it isn't? bwahahahahah and as for now trying to say FF14 and WoW are F2P because they offer a limited trial period where you're fixed to a certain level and have restrictions placed on you?

Double bwahahahahahah, you guys are really grasping at straws now, still waiting for any of you to provide me links that what i call the definition of F2P and my links say is the definition are totally wrong.

Is that not exactly what Rift does? Let's see, you are fixed at level 65 and restricted from using certain Souls and the AH. Sounds like the same thing to me. Who is grasping at straws here?

[Slipmat]

**lots of moving goalposts to try and distract the fact you haven't a leg to stand on**

Still waiting for you to prove my definition of Free to Play is wrong, use Google...oh wait, if you type "definition of Free to Play" into Google, look what's highlighted and is the first hit, i'm shocked.

Free to play (F2P) refers to a business model for online games in which the game designers do not charge the user or player in order to join the game. Instead, they hope to bring in revenue from advertisements or in-game sales, such as payment for upgrades, special abilities, special items, and expansion packs

Feel free to tell us all that Google search is wrong.

[Eleccybubb]

Can I level to 70 without buying Starfall? Yes or No?

[Slipmat]

Can I level to 70 without buying Starfall? Yes or No?

No, is Starfall Prophecy an Expansion? let's see what the definition of Free to Play says again about Expansion Packs in a F2P game:

Free to play (F2P) refers to a business model for online games in which the game designers do not charge the user or player in order to join the game. Instead, they hope to bring in revenue from advertisements or in-game sales, such as payment for upgrades, special abilities, special items, and expansion packs

This is about the fifth time or more i've quoted that, direct from the first hit on Google for a definition of F2P.

[Lathais]

Still waiting for you to prove my definition of Free to Play is wrong, use Google...oh wait, if you type "definition of Free to Play" into Google, look what's highlighted and is the first hit, i'm shocked.

Free to play (F2P) refers to a business model for online games in which the game designers do not charge the user or player in order to join the game. Instead, they hope to bring in revenue from advertisements or in-game sales, such as payment for upgrades, special abilities, special items, and expansion packs

Feel free to tell us all that Google search is wrong.

Let's examine that definition in comparison to WoW.

F2P refers to a business model in which the game designers to not charge the user or player in order to join the game.
Can I join WoW and play without being charged? Yes, I can.

Instead, they hope to bring in revenue from advertisements or in-game sales, such as payment for upgrades, special abilities, special items, and expansion packs.
Yup, that all applies to WoW as well.

This is why the definition is flawed. That definition applies to WoW and FFXIV as well, because I can in fact create an account, join the game and play without paying a dime. If I want to go past a certain point and unlock other features, I have to pay. Rift does the EXACT SAME THING, they just call it a different name. Even they do not call the game F2P anymore though.

Let's look at one of your very own posts here:

I've said it before, i always thought Trion gave away too much of the game for free, i.e the entire thing

This seems to be a return to Buy to Play and have everything,the Live Stream tomorrow night will tell, meanwhile Massively OP has an exclusive sneak peek at Starfall Prophecy, makes for interesting reading


http://massivelyop.com/2016/08/04/he...nsion/#respond

Also Gamespot just released the trailer for Starfall Prophecy

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/thi.../1100-6442317/

Well they tried giving away Expansions for free, the self entitled cried rivers of tears when they thought they were "forced" to buy earring slots, which worked out a lot less than an actual Expansion price but whatever, they got what they wished for, Buy to Play with everything unlocked.

The game's Director, Archonix, posted a Producer's Letter about some more of what to expect.

http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...-prophecy.html

So your words are contradictory to Scott Hartsman's AND opposite of what you yourself said.

Get it through your head, once an expansion comes out, all previous content DOES NOT MATTER. All that matters is the current expansion. Would you be happy playing without Starfall Prophecy? Would you sit contentedly at level 65 and just praise the game? No. Who would? No one. So, Rift: Starfall Prophecy is NOT F2P, by the devs and your own words. No one cares if all the content before the current expansion is Free or not, that is nothing more than a glorified trial, and pretty restricted at that, no AH and all the best souls locked behind a paywall.

[Slipmat]

Hahahahhaha, WoW is Pay To Play, for people who claim to have played numerous MMOs you clearly can't even distinguish the three main systems for MMOs today

1: Free to Play
2: Buy to Play
3: Pay to Play

Not too many of the latter still around, only WoW and FF14 are the last two well known ones, even after your limited trial period you purchase the various Expansions/DLCs you then must add a recurring subscription plan, you play nearly 90% of Rift for free, you can pay a once off payment to buy the latest Expansion, then Rift is again free to play for you with access to all content, so once again, i ask you to provide me with links and definitions of your version of what a free to play game is, use Bing if you get stuck (hint it points to the same definition i gave)

[Lathais]

Hahahahhaha, WoW is Pay To Play, for people who claim to have played numerous MMOs you clearly can't even distinguish the three main systems for MMOs today

1: Free to Play
2: Buy to Play
3: Pay to Play

Not too many of the latter still around, only WoW and FF14 are the last two well known ones, even after your limited trial period you purchase the various Expansions/DLCs you then must add a recurring subscription plan, you play nearly 90% of Rift for free, you can pay a once off payment to buy the latest Expansion, then Rift is again free to play for you with access to all content, so once again, i ask you to provide me with links and definitions of your version of what a free to play game is, use Bing if you get stuck (hint it points to the same definition i gave)

I totally agree with you here. However, WoWs model fits the definition you are using of Free to Play. We totally get that WoW is P2P. We understand that. However, it fits all the definitions you are linking of F2P, therefore, YOU are the only one calling it F2P, while saying flat out it is not. Do you not see how you contradict yourself?

Even your wikipedia definition, which any of us could actually go change anytime we wanted, clearly states:

Free-to-play can be contrasted with pay to play, in which payment is required before using a service for the first time.

So by the wikipedia definition of pay-to-play WoW is not Pay-to-play, because I do not have to pay a dime to use the service for the first time. I can create an account, log in and play to a specific level without having to pay. Same thing I can do in Rift.

It is your own definitions that give WoW F2P status, not ours. We obviously realize that WoW is P2P. However, your definitions give it F2P status.

Here, look at the wikipedia definition of Pay to Play:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_play

Pay to play, sometimes pay for play, is a phrase used for a variety of situations in which money is exchanged for services or the privilege to engage in certain activities. The common denominator of all forms of pay to play is that one must pay to "get in the game," with the sports analogy frequently arising.[1]

You do not need to pay a thing to get in to WoW or FFXIV. Nothing at all. Try it for yourself and see.

So once again, by the definitions you yourself choose to use, WoW is not Pay to Play, yet you insist that it is. Please please please quit contradicting yourself. Maybe people would take you more seriously and have actual discussions with you. As it is, it's impossible to have any sort of conversation with you as all you do is ignore, deflect and contradict yourself and the devs of Rift.

[Slipmat]

How am i contradicting myself? F2P means you play the base game for free but newest content, be it in the form of an Expansion or DLC will sometimes have to be bought, not sure how easier i can make this all besides drawing nice, colour pictures with crayons.

You install Rift, you get the base game plus it's first two Expansions for free, you can then choose to buy the latest Expansion, that's all covered in the definition of Free to Play that nearly all search engines show as the very first link, unless you think search engines are wrong.

Playing to level 20 in WoW is a trial, what's referred to as an endless trial, there's no time limit but with a cap of level 110 now? trying to say WoW is the same as Rift in that both are F2P is too funny for words.

If none of you can provide me with a different definition of free to play than the ones i've quoted and linked nearly ad nauseam now it might be time to re-evaluate your positions before you embarrass yourselves any further.

[Eleccybubb]

How am i contradicting myself? F2P means you play the base game for free but newest content, be it in the form of an Expansion or DLC will sometimes have to be bought, not sure how easier i can make this all besides drawing nice, colour pictures with crayons.

You install Rift, you get the base game plus it's first two Expansions for free, you can then choose to buy the latest Expansion, that's all covered in the definition of Free to Play that nearly all search engines show as the very first link, unless you think search engines are wrong.

Playing to level 20 in WoW is a trial, what's referred to as an endless trial, there's no time limit but with a cap of level 110 now? trying to say WoW is the same as Rift in that both are F2P is too funny for words.

If none of you can provide me with a different definition of free to play than the ones i've quoted and linked nearly ad nauseam now it might be time to re-evaluate your positions before you embarrass yourselves any further.

So I can't get to endgame without buying? Gotcha. Rift is B2P to get to endgame then glad we sorted that out at last.

Also nobody was saying that WoW and Rift are the same. People are saying YOUR logic would imply it is. Nice deflecting there. Also playing to 65 in Rift is a trial then. But with a level cap of 70? Cool thanks for clearing it all up for us.

[Lathais]

How am i contradicting myself? F2P means you play the base game for free but newest content, be it in the form of an Expansion or DLC will sometimes have to be bought, not sure how easier i can make this all besides drawing nice, colour pictures with crayons.

You install Rift, you get the base game plus it's first two Expansions for free, you can then choose to buy the latest Expansion, that's all covered in the definition of Free to Play that nearly all search engines show as the very first link, unless you think search engines are wrong.

Playing to level 20 in WoW is a trial, what's referred to as an endless trial, there's no time limit but with a cap of level 110 now? trying to say WoW is the same as Rift in that both are F2P is too funny for words.

If none of you can provide me with a different definition of free to play than the ones i've quoted and linked nearly ad nauseam now it might be time to re-evaluate your positions before you embarrass yourselves any further.

That is not the same definition you linked though. You are adding you own things to the definitions now, so you are doing the same thing you are accusing us of doing. By the definitions you linked, because of the unlimited free trial, WoW fits in the definitions you linked of F2P. So what are we going by, the definitions you linked or this one you just made up because it fits what you want to say?

The only person embarrassing himself here is you. You keep linking these definitions, that fit WoW and FFXIV, while insisting they are not F2P. You link all these definitions, and then use your own anyway. If you are going to link them, stick by them. If you are going to use your own definition, then use your own definition and quit linking other ones. That is how you are contradicting yourself. Not to mention the posts I quoted of you yourself saying it is Buy to Play. You said it yourself, now you are saying it is not. Please explain to me how that is NOT contradicting yourself.

[Slipmat]

That is not the same definition you linked though. You are adding you own things to the definitions now.

Now i know you have to be trolling, nobody is this idiotic.

Free to play (F2P) refers to a business model for online games in which the game designers do not charge the user or player in order to join the game. Instead, they hope to bring in revenue from advertisements or in-game sales, such as payment for upgrades, special abilities, special items, and expansion packs

That is what i linked over and over again, the base game is free, the Company will hope to bring in the money by choosing to sell items and/or Expansion packs, it's right there in the quote, please try and keep up and please, link me a definition where you can prove my links and definitions wrong, i'm asking now for past few hours and nothing, so either put up or shut up, as the saying goes.

[Eleccybubb]

Now i know you have to be trolling, nobody is this idiotic.



That is what i linked over and over again, the base game is free, the Company will hope to bring in the money by choosing to sell items and/or Expansion packs, it's right there in the quote, please try and keep up and please, link me a definition where you can prove my links and definitions wrong, i'm asking now for past few hours and nothing, so either put up or shut up, as the saying goes.

Can I get to 70 without buying? Cool then Rift is B2P if you want to fully experience everything the game has to offer. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Also initially you used 5 year old sources as your links. Therefore the person you are quoting is right. You linked contradictory things from unreliable sources initially such as Wikipedia which even they say should not be used as a reliable source.

[Acidz]

Why is this clown still allowed to post here? If Trion wants to advertise their game, let them buy some adds instead.

[Eleccybubb]

Why is this clown still allowed to post here? If Trion wants to advertise their game, let them buy some adds instead.

They tried it. The youtube trailer only got 2k views because they didn't think to viewbot it this time

Only real streamer left I know of only really does it because Trion are giving him money to do so. As for Twitch there is usually less than 20 views on there.

[dope_danny]

Now i know you have to be trolling, nobody is this idiotic.



That is what i linked over and over again, the base game is free, the Company will hope to bring in the money by choosing to sell items and/or Expansion packs, it's right there in the quote, please try and keep up and please, link me a definition where you can prove my links and definitions wrong, i'm asking now for past few hours and nothing, so either put up or shut up, as the saying goes.

[Lathais]

Now i know you have to be trolling, nobody is this idiotic.



That is what i linked over and over again, the base game is free, the Company will hope to bring in the money by choosing to sell items and/or Expansion packs, it's right there in the quote, please try and keep up and please, link me a definition where you can prove my links and definitions wrong, i'm asking now for past few hours and nothing, so either put up or shut up, as the saying goes.

I'm being idiotic and trolling? Really?

First off, pretty sure calling someone a troll is against the rules here, so good luck with that.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/faq.php?faq=forumrules

Spamming and Trolling

Neither spamming or trolling is acceptable on the forums. This includes, but is not limited to, the following examples:

Excessively communicating the same phrase, similar phrases, or pure gibberish
Creating threads for the sole purpose of causing unrest on the forums
Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters
Making non-constructive posts
Abusing the Reported Post feature by sending false alarms or nonsensical messages
Numbering a thread, IBTL, TLDR, or any other fad statements
Thread-necro: Reviving an old thread for no reason other than bumping it to the first page
Posting meme or troll images, text, or videos; "cool story bro", "u mad", "10/10", captioned images, etc...
Replying to a thread simply to call the author a troll (regardless of whether the post is actually trolling -- if you feel it is, please use the report button)

Second, let's evaluate that definition again:

Free to play (F2P) refers to a business model for online games in which the game designers do not charge the user or player in order to join the game.

Can I join WoW or FFXIV without being charged? YES. I CAN.

Instead, they hope to bring in revenue from advertisements or in-game sales, such as payment for upgrades, special abilities, special items, and expansion packs

Do WoW and FFXIV get money by charging for upgrades. YES. By buying the game, I am upgrading from the trial. By subbing to the game, I am upgrading beyond the level 20 limit. If I cancel my sub, I can still play the game and log in to any of my characters below level 20. I can then also buy the Expansion Packs.

The definition you just used:

F2P means you play the base game for free but newest content, be it in the form of an Expansion or DLC will sometimes have to be bought

Nowhere in that linked definition does it mention base game, just whether or not they charge for access to the game. You added this "base game" requirement all on your own, so who is moving the goalposts?
In WoW, I can join the game and play without spending anything, then upgrade my account to be able to play the base game. You moved the goalposts and added the "base game" requirement. Not us. Then you accused Eleccy of moving the goalposts. Contradict yourself much there?

[Edge-]

Alright folks, this hasn't been a terribly productive line of discussion thus far and it's continuing to go nowhere fast. Let's get back on topic for the thread (and sub-forum), and if that means there's not much to discuss about the Starter pack, then so be it.

[Lathais]

At the risk of infraction due to being asked to stop already, I have done as requested by Slipmat and found actual definitions of Free-to-Play and really all payment models for MMORPGs and online games in general. To be fair, I started looking this stuff up before Edge posted his warning, but I completely understand if I do get infracted.

http://massivelyop.com/2016/04/30/ma...siness-models/

Free-to-play

Free-to-play is one of the most tortured terms in the industry, but generally it means a business model that has no up-front cost and a game that players can theoretically play all of the way through or to the top without plunking down money. Its obvious advantage is in lowering the financial barrier to the floor so that anyone can come in and enjoy a game for as long as he or she wants.

Because most studios need to make a profit, most times that you see free-to-play it comes with an asterisk beside the term that points you to the true money-making element. By making the game “free,” studios hope that it will attract more players and keep them around longer so that those who invest time in the game will eventually start sinking money into it through cash shops, subscriptions, or services.

http://treeofsaviorgame.com/general/...2p-f2p-or-b2p/

Free to Play (F2P)

Free to Play payment models usually come with a cash shop. The company make money from players who are willing to spend money on cash shop (microtransaction). This payment model is adopted by popular MOBA titles such as Dota 2, League of Legends and World of Tanks.

Prior to 2010, F2P with microtransaction is an extremely frown upon business model due to its vulnerability to pay to win. However, Dota 2 and League of Legends have both proven that they are cashing in greenbacks using this business models.

Buying an expansion is not a microtransaction, it is purchasing a game, so if you have to buy the expansion, it can not be considered F2P.

http://pvsgaming.com/mmogaming/mmo-p...del-evolution/
These guys don't even list F2P, they seperate it into freemium and completely free.

Freemium’: Games in this category are ‘free’ and do not have a timed trial, but do limit the amount of content available. A player often can play as much or as long as they like in the ‘free’ zone, but need to pay to advance into more content areas. Like the ‘subscription only’ category, most of these games only have digital downloads. For a monthly or weekly fee, a player can unlock the rest of the game. These games also usually have cash shops in them.


Absolutely Free: These games are free, no questions asked. These games are usually independent (indie) games and have no cost with the game directly. The game itself is free, and there is no supporting cash shop. To support the game, players are asked to purchase merchandise (such as T-shirts or posters) or make donations to the company directly. Many indie game developers use this payment model just to get their game out there, then evolves into another model from there.

Rift absolutely falls into Freemium, even Scott Hartsman calls Starfall Prohpecy a Premiun Expansion, so it fits the Freemium model very well, but that is not the same thing as F2P.