Blizzard said flying trivialized the content then advertises as a feature!

[Seefer]

Yeah man... flying sucks for the game. It trivializes content. It allows you to miss all out hard work and miss experiencing the game as we intended.

Oh... hey! Earn flying in WoW... It's an AWESOME feature we have added because it's so desired.

Who exactly as the ads intended for? Are they reaching out to the millions that left game because they took away something and now using it as a carrot to come back?

Never heard of marketing? Think of the people who "quit" because of no flying or the many many MANY more who whine about it.

[SirCowdog]

Maybe not broken but trivialized. They are two different things. By allowing flight from the start you eliminate half the value of the zone because people skip over it. That's a proven fact.

No, it's not a fact at all. Did players in cata get a free level boost to 85 at the same time they first used their flying mount? Or did they just fly to each quest objective and do it? You're attempting to ignore the actual fact that content gets consumed no matter how a player reaches it. The only thing that flying trivializes are parts of the "content" that are already trivial.

That's why Cataclysm was so bad since we had flight from the start. Most everyone skipped the coolest zone of all which was Vash'ir because they couldn't fly.

People skipped Vash'ir because Mt Hyjal had more useful quest drops out of the gate, and because Vash'jr had an atmosphere of oppressive weight of the entire ocean over them instead of the more familiar Warcraft Lore. Meanwhile...Vash'jr has....weird giant god-bugs and hentai tentacles everywhere. Also sharks, which many people have a phobia about.

Once again you're attempting to blame flight for something it's not responsible for. Even if people did choose to avoid Vash'jr to to a lack of flying, isn't that just more evidence that people want and enjoy flying, and that it should be in the game?

In BC, LK and MOP you were unable to fly until nearly max level preserving the flow of each zone. Only LK allowed you to fly 2 levels early because the final zones needed it. The zones in WOD and Legion were designed around not having flight available so it wasn't necessary.

Circular logic: You don't need flying because the zones didn't have flying, so we designed them without flight. So why do you need to fly?

Get out of town with that nonsense. If anything, you're just giving more weight and evidence to the arguments FOR zones with both flying AND non-flying. You said it yourself: WotLK had zones that needed flight. Cata had zones which used flight.

Flying does NOT break or ruin content in the way people keep saying it does. You still have to land to do quests. The lore doesn't go away because I'm on a griffon instead of a horse. The NPCs don't fall over and die just because I fly over them, and my dragon doesn't collect my loot for me(although that would be fucking AWESOME if it did!).

And lets just say for the sake of argument: So what if flying mounts did make me an OP god. Why would you care how *I* play the game? You can still play how you want. You can find a group of like-minded players and do all the dungeons and raids on foot at walking speed if that's what you like. And if Blizzard can't manage to make content which is interesting enough to get me to land and do it without giving me any other choice, then maybe that's an indication that the content isn't very good in the first place. Maybe you should start looking at the content itself instead of trying to place the blame at how people interact with it.

- - - Updated - - -

At what point did I mention people starting threads? All I said it was the same faces in every thread with you being the prime suspect. Go read my posts again before continuing this line of arguing because you'll find that all you've done is brought up a straw man argument for no reason other than inept reading skills. Go on, I'll happily wait.

Actually, you said:

"You mean the topic that's been dug up hundreds of times over by the same select group of people?"

I was the one who brought up who started the threads, because my point was that it's not just a small group of people asking for flight. It's not just a "vocal minority" pushing for it. You sound like you're just angry that people are disagreeing with you, and don't think or play the same way.

[Deleted]

Actually, you said:

"You mean the topic that's been dug up hundreds of times over by the same select group of people?"

I was the one who brought up who started the threads, because my point was that it's not just a small group of people asking for flight. It's not just a "vocal minority"
pushing for it. You sound like you're just angry that people are disagreeing with you, and don't think or play the same way.

Doesn't devalue my point that you and a tiny handful of people inflate this stuff and make it to be a bigger deal than it already is. If you can't see that, then you're genuinely deluded.

All you've achieved is creating an echo chamber.

[Ehrenpanzer]

its marketing.
they lie, they stretch reality, they do not care for what was said previously

they just want to sound and look cool

marketing produces the biggest bullshit i have ever come in contact with in my proffessional career. (software development)

TL;DR marketing is just a bunch of shit with very very very few exceptions which are really remarkable and make an impression.

You should probably avoid politics altogether if this one semi-lame marketing lie gets you so upset.

[Wingspan]

A few years ago, when Blizzard announced the (then) upcoming changes to flight, I was pretty darn angry. A lot of time has passed, and I am no longer particularly mad (as that would be unhealthy) but I have to admit that part of me still enjoys seeing Blizzard continue to get backlash over the whole ordeal.


Ironically, I had always figured that I would be there in WoW until the end. In fact, removing flight or questing are probably about the only things that would have ever pushed me from the game. I never particularly worried about the typical WoW gripes (PvP balance, PvE raid balance, over-simplification, whatever) and I somehow managed to stay happily subbed for 8 continuous years - while almost everyone else I knew in-game had moved on years before.


Anyway, time passed and I have found other games to focus on, so WoW to me is now just for funsies... a place to take a break from other games. I have not seen Legion yet, but I will be returning soon now that flight is in-game, so that should be good for a bit of a break. I probably wont even be mad if Argus kills flight again, because that would just be a good trigger for me to return to other games.

[MoanaLisa]

Why can't a company this large, with this reputation, with these resources, KNOWING how it affects the playerbase...

PICK A STANCE AND STICK TO IT???

I think they have. They can change their minds and someday I do expect to see a zone built specifically for flying but if you've been paying any attention their stance is very clear: They don't much care for flying as a design thing, there's not much else they can do with it given the engine they are working with, but they realize it's popularity so they have turned it into a reward which is available after the expansion has been out for a while and people have done the zone content on the ground.

Whether anyone likes it or not, that's where it sits and they show zero inclination to change it. They've picked a stance; so far they've stuck to exactly this. That may be tough for some to accept but aside from personal preference or opinion that' how it is. Whatever backlash there is to be seen here or on other forums seems to be limited to a fairly limited group of posters who by now have written hundreds or perhaps thousands of posts about it. That's fine and all but SirCowdog and others, for all of their persistence, are still single individuals and taken together don't add up to anything that resembles a substantial movement.

Despite the noise on the forums there's no real evidence that it hurts their metrics. People came back for Warlords and Legion mostly knowing this was how it was going to be (assuming they cared) and Blizzard seems to be happy with their metrics for people playing.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

And you conveniently do the same while having nothing to contribute. Congratulations.

and then you conveniently do the same while I do the same and that means you have even less to contribute. Congratulations.

[Wingspan]

Whatever backlash there is to be seen here or on other forums seems to be limited to a fairly limited group of posters who by now have written hundreds or perhaps thousands of posts about it. That's fine and all but SirCowdog and others, for all of their persistence, are still single individuals and taken together don't add up to anything that resembles a substantial movement.

To be fair here, the fact that flight is still around at all is a fairly good testament to it having a substantial movement.

Despite the noise on the forums there's no real evidence that it hurts their metrics. People came back for Warlords and Legion mostly knowing this was how it was going to be (assuming they cared) and Blizzard seems to be happy with their metrics for people playing.

And again, to be fair, there is no real evidence either way here (in fact, no real evidence that most returning players to WoD or Legion even knew about the changes). We don't even know the percentages of people that returned for both expansions (because at least those players would probably have known when returning for Legion)... but we simply don't have any of that kind of data.


WoD had a record plummet, for various reasons, and the Legion (from what little we know from 3rd party sites) has not fared much better. Together, they have been radically different expansions when compared to each other... other than (of course) having no flight for a good stretch in the beginning. That by itself is cause for investigation, which I assume Blizzard has done to what degree they can.

Has it mattered? Definitely. Has it mattered a ton? We simply cant say with any real authority, but it does not seem to be an unreasonable assumption.

[Fabinas]

I think they have. They can change their minds and someday I do expect to see a zone built specifically for flying but if you've been paying any attention their stance is very clear: They don't much care for flying as a design thing, there's not much else they can do with it given the engine they are working with, but they realize it's popularity so they have turned it into a reward which is available after the expansion has been out for a while and people have done the zone content on the ground.

Whether anyone likes it or not, that's where it sits and they show zero inclination to change it. They've picked a stance; so far they've stuck to exactly this. That may be tough for some to accept but aside from personal preference or opinion that' how it is. Whatever backlash there is to be seen here or on other forums seems to be limited to a fairly limited group of posters who by now have written hundreds or perhaps thousands of posts about it. That's fine and all but SirCowdog and others, for all of their persistence, are still single individuals and taken together don't add up to anything that resembles a substantial movement.

Despite the noise on the forums there's no real evidence that it hurts their metrics. People came back for Warlords and Legion mostly knowing this was how it was going to be (assuming they cared) and Blizzard seems to be happy with their metrics for people playing.

Just so because SirCowdog and others are being the main posters and defenders of flight in WoW here, doesn't mean they are a vocal minority. Also, you're assuming a lot especially when saying " seems to be limited to a fairly limited group of posters ". Noone knows metrics but Blizzard, so neither you do know how small or big is this movement. Also "Blizzard seems to be happy...". Another assumption.

We pro-fliers can at least SAFELY ASSUME (no real evidence) we are the majority of players by one and only fact. The fact that Blizzard caved in around 2 weeks after the announcemnt of flight removal from WoW going forward. Since Blizzard knows metrics (and we don't), the only possible explanation for such a sudden and fast U-turn in a very impactful design decision is that the players showed them (by mostly unsubbing) they won't accept that course for the game. No institution announces A and then goes back to pre-A (or, in this case, the pathfinder compromise), only if realising the A decision was a huge mistake. Since they know metrics, i doubt they let the forum posting "minorities" dictate such a reversal.

[Wingspan]

We pro-fliers can at least SAFELY ASSUME (no real evidence) we are the majority of players by one and only fact. The fact that Blizzard caved in around 2 weeks after the announcemnt of flight removal from WoW going forward. Since Blizzard knows metrics (and we don't), the only possible explanation for such a sudden and fast U-turn in a very impactful design decision is that the players showed them (by mostly unsubbing) they won't accept that course for the game. No institution announces A and then goes back to pre-A (or, in this case, the pathfinder compromise), only if realising the A decision was a huge mistake. Since they know metrics, i doubt they let the forum posting "minorities" dictate such a reversal.

I am very pro-flight and I just said some similar things in the post above yours but I do think I should point out that pro-flight (even with all the changes it has caused) is still not necessarily a majority.


The pro-flight sentiment was clearly enough to bring about changes, but Blizzard would probably be willing to buckle on a point long before it reached 51% (a true majority). Numbers as low as 20% or maybe even 10% might be enough to achieve what happened as long as it appeared that the financial losses were going to be real and long-lasting.


I am not saying that pro-fliers are NOT a majority... just that they would not need to be in order to cause the changes that we saw happen.

[Hctaz]

If there were that many people willing to jump ship so readily, then it is hard to believe the community was in such a good state as you describe it.
If interaction is relegated to a guid only, then that is the choice the players made.

Look at the "solution" to excessive item level requirements on groups - guilds or making your own group.
Players are choosing to do the very things you blame on ground finders, when the group finders are only made more necessary due to player behaviour which prompted their need in the first place.

I saw lots of that same behaviour long before group finders.

Yes there were people back in Wrath who required ridiculous gearscore in order to get into groups but that's not the same thing we're talking about. You're saying it was needed because people were ridiculous which I suppose is something that you can argue, but I'm saying that those behaviors you're talking about were circumvented by simply knowing people on your server. If you knew the majority of Pug leaders on your server (and back in Wrath there were actually people who were dedicated to making a pug every x day at y time every week) and they knew you were a good player then they would let you get away with bringing friends in who you vouched for. The restrictions only applied to 100% strangers and there really weren't too many strangers on the server before LFD.

The point is that what you're saying is correct but the ordering is incorrect. It was an issue but it wasn't as widespread as you think it was because it was mitigated by a server community. When the community died then item level became a HUGE issue because nobody gave a fuck about Johnny Rando just like they didn't back in the day. The difference is that Johnny Rando was like 10% of the population versus 80%

[SirCowdog]

I am very pro-flight and I just said some similar things in the post above yours but I do think I should point out that pro-flight (even with all the changes it has caused) is still not necessarily a majority.


The pro-flight sentiment was clearly enough to bring about changes, but Blizzard would probably be willing to buckle on a point long before it reached 51% (a true majority). Numbers as low as 20% or maybe even 10% might be enough to achieve what happened as long as it appeared that the financial losses were going to be real and long-lasting.


I am not saying that pro-fliers are NOT a majority... just that they would not need to be in order to cause the changes that we saw happen.

I have to agree. I don't necessarily think we need to be a majority in order to effect change. All we need is to have enough people to make a significant impact on the profits of the game. And that's mostly because people who enjoy the ground game don't leave once flying is available. While people who really enjoy flight DO sometimes unsub over it.

This is why I'll be really interested to see what Blizzard does with the content now that flying is available. It will tell us a LOT about their intentions towards flight going forward.

If content released after 7.2 is mostly non-flying stuff, then it's pretty clear that what MoanaLisa said earlier is true: Blizzard doesn't give two hairy jackal asses about flight, and will only do just enough to keep it viable as a carrot for players to chase in non-relevant content that's already been consumed. But if content after 7.2 DOES include and use flying, then it would suggest that Blizzard is going to make an attempt to incorporate flying into the game more fully, and with more relevance.

[MoanaLisa]

Also "Blizzard seems to be happy...". Another assumption.

Not really.

World of Warcraft® MAUsA grew 10% in 2016 and over 20% year-over-year in the fourth quarter on the back of the successful third-quarter launch of the expansion, Legion™.

World of Warcraft saw an increase in total play time for the quarter, surpassing the Q3 expansion launch quarter and all non-launch quarters in the last four years.

That seems pretty clear, the second quote in particular.

From 4th quarter 2016 results if you would like to read for yourself. The point being of course that whatever people think the game is apparently doing pretty well despite the constant kerfluffle over flying.

http://files.shareholder.com/downloa...ith_Tables.pdf

[Metallourlante]

Yeah indeed. That's pretty sad if you ask me.
Next feature confirmed: UNLOCK SWIMMING!

[Deleted]

Maybe not broken but trivialized. They are two different things. By allowing flight from the start you eliminate half the value of the zone because people skip over it. That's a proven fact. That's why Cataclysm was so bad since we had flight from the start. Most everyone skipped the coolest zone of all which was Vash'ir because they couldn't fly. In BC, LK and MOP you were unable to fly until nearly max level preserving the flow of each zone. Only LK allowed you to fly 2 levels early because the final zones needed it. The zones in WOD and Legion were designed around not having flight available so it wasn't necessary.

You had flying from 78 in wotlk and had it from 70 on alts, you dont need to get rid of flying, you need to design zones around ppl having flying mounts, hell stormheim would be prime candidate as half of the zone is littered with grappling points which are bandaid fix for having no fly mounts.

As for no content on wod, seriously, they could repackage apexis dailies and lvling quests with legendary drops and ap and ppl would still do them and bash on anyone saying theres no content, sounds familiar?? ive just described world quests.
Around a month into expansion i already wasnt doing world quests if they didnt offer 1)ap 2)emissaries

[Gadzooks]

You had flying from 78 in wotlk and had it from 70 on alts, you dont need to get rid of flying, you need to design zones around ppl having flying mounts, hell stormheim would be prime candidate as half of the zone is littered with grappling points which are bandaid fix for having no fly mounts.

This is what I've been pointing out - by their (the devs) own words, this is a design issue. They said it trivialized content - but it was content THEY designed in the first place, and could have simply designed it a bit differently. The content that they were concerned with was the "quest on rails" content of WOD. They wanted it all tightly locked up, so you could only access what they decided you could, and in what order. That's how they chose to story tell in that expansion, and I can see why they made the decision they did. I don't agree with it (mostly because it props up questing on rails, which I hate), but I can put that aside to see why they did it.

There are good aspects of that, especially telling a long story arc. But you CAN mix that in, with the older way of designing things - they did exactly that in Wrath, Cata (to an extent), and MoP. Besides, the whole "flight at level cap" mitigated the whole trivialization aspect, anyway.

But this thread is pointless. The debate happened. Bliz went back on their decision, flying still exists (at a cost), and everything is hunky dory. Debating if it's trivializing or not is on Blizzard, as they control every aspect of it. They have the tools to mitigate the flying issue. They just chose not to - and it's not the first time they've made a bad decision. But that's over and done with, and the whole thread is getting shades of the "vanilla vs, classic" threads with the same points being thrown back and forth page after page after page.

[Tharkkun]

No, it's not a fact at all. Did players in cata get a free level boost to 85 at the same time they first used their flying mount? Or did they just fly to each quest objective and do it? You're attempting to ignore the actual fact that content gets consumed no matter how a player reaches it. The only thing that flying trivializes are parts of the "content" that are already trivial.



People skipped Vash'ir because Mt Hyjal had more useful quest drops out of the gate, and because Vash'jr had an atmosphere of oppressive weight of the entire ocean over them instead of the more familiar Warcraft Lore. Meanwhile...Vash'jr has....weird giant god-bugs and hentai tentacles everywhere. Also sharks, which many people have a phobia about.

Once again you're attempting to blame flight for something it's not responsible for. Even if people did choose to avoid Vash'jr to to a lack of flying, isn't that just more evidence that people want and enjoy flying, and that it should be in the game?




Circular logic: You don't need flying because the zones didn't have flying, so we designed them without flight. So why do you need to fly?

Get out of town with that nonsense. If anything, you're just giving more weight and evidence to the arguments FOR zones with both flying AND non-flying. You said it yourself: WotLK had zones that needed flight. Cata had zones which used flight.

Flying does NOT break or ruin content in the way people keep saying it does. You still have to land to do quests. The lore doesn't go away because I'm on a griffon instead of a horse. The NPCs don't fall over and die just because I fly over them, and my dragon doesn't collect my loot for me(although that would be fucking AWESOME if it did!).

And lets just say for the sake of argument: So what if flying mounts did make me an OP god. Why would you care how *I* play the game? You can still play how you want. You can find a group of like-minded players and do all the dungeons and raids on foot at walking speed if that's what you like. And if Blizzard can't manage to make content which is interesting enough to get me to land and do it without giving me any other choice, then maybe that's an indication that the content isn't very good in the first place. Maybe you should start looking at the content itself instead of trying to place the blame at how people interact with it.

- - - Updated - - -



Actually, you said:

"You mean the topic that's been dug up hundreds of times over by the same select group of people?"

I was the one who brought up who started the threads, because my point was that it's not just a small group of people asking for flight. It's not just a "vocal minority" pushing for it. You sound like you're just angry that people are disagreeing with you, and don't think or play the same way.

You read into things people don't say and then talk way too much about nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

You had flying from 78 in wotlk and had it from 70 on alts, you dont need to get rid of flying, you need to design zones around ppl having flying mounts, hell stormheim would be prime candidate as half of the zone is littered with grappling points which are bandaid fix for having no fly mounts.

As for no content on wod, seriously, they could repackage apexis dailies and lvling quests with legendary drops and ap and ppl would still do them and bash on anyone saying theres no content, sounds familiar?? ive just described world quests.
Around a month into expansion i already wasnt doing world quests if they didnt offer 1)ap 2)emissaries

The leveling content in WOD amazing and only one upped by Legion's design. That's what they want you to experience. Yes, you had flying from 78 on because the Zones were designed around having flight at that point. Try doing Icecrown without flight. It can be done but it sucks. Same with Storm Peaks. Alt's didn't get tomes for flight immediately either. That happened a few patches into the expansion. We're not even a year in yet to what will probably be a 2 year expansion.

Unlocking flight right now extends account wide. So there's not even a monetary cost for tomes like previously.

[Super Kami Dende]

Which is better? Allowing me to fly after leveling to max level on every toon, or making me wait 8 months before I can fly on my main... then ruining the "immersion" for my alts?

Because you seemed to miss the Bolded part. It doesn't matter if Alts can fly later on, since you've already experienced it with your main to be able to play with your Alt using flying.

and for me which is better? the 8 month wait.

[Tackhisis]

Most everyone skipped the coolest zone of all which was Vash'ir because they couldn't fly.

Are you for real? You get a flying mount for free in the second quest hub there.

[Deleted]

Are you for real? You get a flying mount for free in the second quest hub there.

I'm fairly certain what you quoted there was sarcasm...

When going by that logic one could also say; you didn't exactly need a mount there as you could "fly" off the bat.
One thing that annoyed me in Legion was the shaman (lvl 102) quest in Vashj'r and how i couldn't use the mount there.