[MISTWEAVER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Supliftz]

Spec representation at all levels matters, and retention rate matters. MW was good in HFC, it required an OP set bonus to be good. It was by no means or stretch of any definition a top 3 healer, it was yes, 4th best healer. With the standing being Disc>Hpal>Sham>MW. And the reason why Sham has consistently been a top3 healer has been that they have A) A mastery that matters. B) Health buffs on their heals both A, and B offset lack of gear. C) Ascendance + Spirit Link is the strongest healer CD combo in the entire game. Whenever MW has been overpowered in any facet it is nerfed into the dust.

I'm telling you as a mythic raider in HFC, Mistweaver was superior to Shaman as soon as legendary ring came into the game. It turns out shaman cds (while good), weren't as op as fistweaving, extend life or revival.

I also would not call shaman "consistently" a top 3 healer. That's true today (for normies), but for the majority of mop, and a little bit of wod, shamans were as "average" as mistweaver.

Whenever MW has been overpowered in any facet it is nerfed into the dust.

Key word, overpowered. I guess it's fine if something overpowered, stays overpowered if Mistweaver has it, but it's an issue for holy paladin has a monopoly on tank healing for literal years :thinking:

Anyway, I think I've explained to you before, every point in time you've talked about this, mistweaver (among other specs) was overpowered at the time. Blizzard don't randomly nerf specs without reason, that makes no sense. It was within complete reason for Blizzard to nerf Mistweaver if you actually try to understand the context. Mistweaver in t14 was massively overperforming, that's why you always saw 2-3 of them in 25 man raids. Blizzard at the time effectively nerfed the healing of mistweaver by ~25%, and nerfed all the mana costs, and mistweaver was still a top 3 healer in T14, depending on your skill level. Goes to show you how overpowered Mistweaver was at the time (although disc priests LUL). Mistweaver in ToT was overperforming, that's why you always saw 1-2 of them in your raid. Blizzard nerfed disc priest, holy paladin and mistweaver within the same patch.

Moving on to WoD, blizzard basically only nerfed mistweaver with the chi explosion nerfs. Pretty obvious why blizzard nerfed Chi Explosion. They did not want Crane stance to do equal hps to serpent, because you would then be forced to play crane to be optimal, and this was around the time when blizzard accepted no one wanted to dps as a monk. Luckily, blizzard ended up buffing mana tea by a lot which ended up causing mistweaver to do comparable hps to shaman/holy paladin/disc. Sadly those specs were extremely overpowered in BRF, so the buff only made mistweaver an above average healer.

MW has never been allowed to be strong at anything. I remember saying this before..

I remember saying this logic doesn't make any sense (it doesn't). Mistweaver was allowed to be good before. It was the master of AoE healing for the majority of it's lifecycle. Do you honestly believe blizzard designs specs to be worse on purpose? Like one day in a board room blizzard said to themselves, "okay mistweaver will never be allowed to be good". This logic doesn't make sense because this would only apply to 1 class out of 36 in the game. What makes mistweaver so unique in this regard?

Following this logic, you cannot say "monks are not allowed to be good" because brewmasters have been consistently overpowered since they came out, only becoming average after experiencing massive nerfs.

But until MW is allowed to be strong at anything like other healers are allowed (and I use the term 'allowed' deliberately because Blizzard deliberately keeps MW in a quasi-limbo between okay and garbage),

Your point only made sense for non-mythic mistweavers. Which would be fine, but you like to say Mistweaver was bad in Mythic raids, which is objectively false. Why not make your point about difficulty of Mistweaver, or about how the spec was too different from other healers for Mistweaver to perform well back in MoP/WoD.

it will never be accepted guilds and the community as a whole as a strong and valuable asset to a guild.

You know the best part about saying guilds and communities as a whole would not accept a "bad spec". This might sound incredibly egoistical, but i'm actually playing a spec right now that started with a bad opinion from the community, and it slowly turned into a spec where people make fun of their holy priests who can't play disc because they see good players like me play :thinking:. Again that point wasn't really meant to stroke my ego (i don't need to go on mmo-c to do that), but it's going to show that all the community cares about is if a spec can do good output, and mistweaver has historically done so.

Another example would be how survival hunter in the eyes of the community changed.

No one has ever said "Holy shit, we need a MW in our guild, they are so good!" A few days of being brokenly strong do now count,

That's an extremely bold claim. No one in the history of wow has ever said "we need a mistweaver in our guild".

Lets just ignore the fact that literally every 10 man guild wanted the disc mistweaver combo because of the dps and how good the two specs were with each other.

Lets just ignore how Mistweaver was stacked in t14 and ToT due to the power level of the spec.

Lets just ignore how paragon made their rdruid reroll Mistweaver for t18 because of how good mistweaver was.

Lets just ignore how Paragon said on finalboss "We wanted to bring a mistweaver in for Imperator, but we didn't have the gear to do so". I mean clearly they wanted to bring a mistweaver to hinder their world first kill huh.

Semantics aside, why does the spec need to be literally the best thing ever to do be good in your eyes? What exactly is wrong with mistweaver being slightly worse than the 1 or 2 other healers providing you're good?

And it resulted in our entire spec and playstyle being utterly dismantled while we were propped up solely by our set bonus.

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee every spec in the game in WoD was mostly propped up by their set bonus, that is how set bonuses work reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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That's a thought ever MW has asked themselves, and Suplift is one of the best Mistweavers in the Mistweaver community and yet he decided, yes I am better on another healer.

I decided that because after they butchered fistweaving for the last time I realized blizzard never actually wanted fistweaving to be good. This combined with mistweaving being nerfed multiple times throughout beta I knew that mistweaver would be bad.

Also Disc was similar to old Mistweaver, and like old mw rewards skill so....

[Myta]

Key word, overpowered. I guess it's fine if something overpowered, stays overpowered if Mistweaver has it, but it's an issue for holy paladin has a monopoly on tank healing for literal years :thinking:

In every post you make to anyone on this forum you attempt to discredit them in one way your another. You say "I have done HFC" as if no one else has.

You are a great technical player, I have said so repeatedly, but you are also not very good at theory crafting, and you've consistently talked down other Mistweavers on this forum (And I don't aim this at just you, there are many MWs guilty of this holier than thou behavior) about their feedback and theorycrafting for the class. Yet history proves you wrong, I said as much that it would, and it's come to pass today. So now MW is not doing so hot.

You're the kind of player who can play any class very well, and everyone has recognized your skill. I think it's time to step off the high horse and speak frankly to all of us. I have been playing WoW since the beta, and while I no longer raid in a competitive guild, I have 15 years of raiding experience on every healer in the game. I've played a long time, and that has affording me an insight into class design, healing at all levels from casual to top200 raiding.

That's a perspective I think you lack, as all your points of argument are based solely on your personal experience and you don't relate to the experience of others well. You mention SoO10 because you raided SoO10, that's fair enough, but what you don't mention are the gaps in the content that you didn't raid or didn't do well in.

Let's look at the HFC reference. Because I've brought this up and you try to deflect my argument constantly and never seem to face it or argue what I'm actually saying. A Holy Paladin without 4pc in HFC was still a good healer, a Shaman, Disc, etc. A MW without 4pc wasn't even a healer worth bringing to a raid. And during HFC, because of the 4pc was the first time many healers were even allowed to raid on their MW after the nerfs in HM. That's not a subjective experience there is a reason, a factual reason why MW is the least played spec of the least played class. Monk has consistently been a pendulum swinging back between ridiculous and trash, and now barely hanging around "Bringable to a raid".

My core point. Every class in the game has something that they do, that's a little bit broken. Something that is really freaking good about them that makes them desirable, good, strong etc but is balanced in the grand scheme of things. Resto Druids with there fast CDs, Shamans with their loads of strong CDs and Hpals with their crazy healing output. MW has never been allowed to be good. Never allowed to buck the mold and do something a little broken. We have never had anything approaching a golden age of "being a good healer" so the community perception is that MW is always a little trash. Maybe you're happy seeing MW kinda this janky red-headed step child that's half-loved by their parents, but many of us don't. And the tiny jewels of short-lived periods where we were good, sometimes even great amongs a fucking ocean of mediocrity or garbage-status is fine for you. But not everyone.

And we would like to see MW elevated to a point where MW can be compared favorably to a HPal one day. And I imagine you scoff at this, because I think deep down you have an ingrained belief that MWs shouldn't ever be as good as HPals. Because HPals are allowed to be good, and MWs are not.

[Awsumpossum]

Can we end this pointless fucking discussion and move on from the stupid semantic posts in which people pick out a single phrase to demonstrate how dumb their opposition is?

The vitriolic division in this thread can be summed up by the following:

1) Some people look at representation of high-end players and objective criteria (such as total relative HPS and Utility) and argue that MW is objectively worse than other healing classes.

2) Some people use their anecdotal experience, but a real experience, to argue that their performance relative to other players is not worse than other classes and conclude that, because of their experience, MW cannot be in as bad a place as others suggest.

Both realities can exist and you're not going to change the mind of your opposition by simply lobbing statistics and more stories that "prove" why you're right and they are wrong just as my posting this will likely have little impact on you all.

It's exhausting. God forbid someone comes here for advice/pleasant interaction with likeminded players.

[Livingmists]

FeelsBlizzardMan.

[Deadoh]

Spec is good, I like it. I go out of mana faster than the other two healers though (shammy and priest). But at that time boss is alsmot dead and I just pop le crane

[Rife]

Mistweaver
Essence Font: Bolts now heal over 8 seconds, up from 6 seconds.
Essence Font: Mana cost reduced by 10%. Now has a 12 second cooldown.

Spec fixed. We did it boyz!

[Supliftz]

it's obvious they want the spec to be balanced around ef hots.

as it stands that's still strictly a buff in a world where effuse spam is a thing

In every post you make to anyone on this forum you attempt to discredit them in one way your another. You say "I have done HFC" as if no one else has.

I'm well aware that other people have done HFC, and I know exactly the reason why they can come to the opinion that Mistweaver was worse than Shaman. They were worse than me. That's a very big thing to consider, since Mistweaver was historically a hard spec to play.

Let's look at the HFC reference. Because I've brought this up and you try to deflect my argument constantly and never seem to face it or argue what I'm actually saying. A Holy Paladin without 4pc in HFC was still a good healer, a Shaman, Disc, etc. A MW without 4pc wasn't even a healer worth bringing to a raid. And during HFC, because of the 4pc was the first time many healers were even allowed to raid on their MW after the nerfs in HM.

Holy paladin 4pc was literally +8% haste. Of course holy paladin would have been good in HFC w/o 8% more haste. You know what actually buffed holy paladin hps by a lot? The class trinket. The class trinket was literally a 25%+ hps increase for hpal. I'm fairly sure in a world where resto druid 4pc, mistweaver 4pc, and leech trinket existed, you would not have run a holy paladin if they randomly did 25% less healing in HFC.

The only spec in HFC that was played despite a massive hps gap was disc priest. Purely because absorbs are overpowered if they absorb 70%+ of your hp, so it was irrelevant if their hps was bad because of lol absorbs.

And lol what nerfs in Highmaul? Are you talking about chi ex? Something that was completely unintended and mistweaver was buffed to compensate the removal of Chi Ex crane?

My core point. Every class in the game has something that they do, that's a little bit broken. Something that is really freaking good about them that makes them desirable, good, strong etc but is balanced in the grand scheme of things. Resto Druids with there fast CDs, Shamans with their loads of strong CDs and Hpals with their crazy healing output. MW has never been allowed to be good. Never allowed to buck the mold and do something a little broken.

>says holy paladins with their crazy output as something that's allowed to be broken

>ignores the years of mistweaver having crazy output

>???????????????????

lol this point man. I feel like you haven't actually played mistweaver for years if you can believe mistweaver was never allowed to be good. I feel like it's pointless to respond when i've identified points in time where mistweaver was allowed to be good.

I guess ignoring mechanics completely isn't broken :thinking:. I guess having 100 yard range on their aoe heals isn't broken :thinking:. I guess having the best aoe burst healing during mop isn't broken :thinking:. I guess doing 10-12x more healer damage in WoD wasn't broken :thinking:

We have never had anything approaching a golden age of "being a good healer" so the community perception is that MW is always a little trash. Maybe you're happy seeing MW kinda this janky red-headed step child that's half-loved by their parents, but many of us don't. And the tiny jewels of short-lived periods where we were good, sometimes even great amongs a fucking ocean of mediocrity or garbage-status is fine for you. But not everyone.

What about the majority of MoP if you're a 25 man raider, and literally all of MoP if you were a 10 man raider. Those were periods of being a god tier healer.

What about the 14 months of mistweaver being overpowered in HFC? That's over half the expansion of the spec being overpowered. That state of overpowerness was hot off the heels of being an extremely competitive spec.

You know why people thought Mistweaver was bad in Heroics Myta? Because the spec was too hard to play. I play disc and people think the spec sucks because it is too hard to play for people.

And we would like to see MW elevated to a point where MW can be compared favorably to a HPal one day. And I imagine you scoff at this, because I think deep down you have an ingrained belief that MWs shouldn't ever be as good as HPals. Because HPals are allowed to be good, and MWs are not.

Thanks for the internet psychoanalysis Myta. Are you going to tell me what my deepest desires are next? I don't have this ingrained belief sadly. The only belief I have is blizzard should equally buff and nerf specs if they are underperforming. So when Chi EX was overpowered, I said it is justified to nerf that talent, but I can also hold the belief that holy paladins/disc priests/shamans also need nerfs. It's lucky I was born with the ability to hold many opinions at the same time.

Anyway, no point in continuing this discussion. All I can say is if you want to believe mistweaver was bad before Legion go ahead. It's so irrelevant to why mistweaver is bad right now.

[Rife]

I don't see how being balanced around double mastery procs on a single player will ever be viable in a raid setting.

Not having a tool in our toolkit for sustained AoE damage or serious AoE healing at all sounds like a horrible class to play. Seeing half your raid taking damage while you're sitting there spamming Effuse seems horrible.

Unless Blizz are intending for us to use SG stacks for AoE healing?

[Supliftz]

I don't see how being balanced around double mastery procs on a single player will ever be viable in a raid setting.

Not having a tool in our toolkit for sustained AoE damage or serious AoE healing at all sounds like a horrible class to play. Seeing half your raid taking damage while you're sitting there spamming Effuse seems horrible.

Unless Blizz are intending for us to use SG stacks for AoE healing?

The same way a holy paladin deals with AoE damage with long cooldowns on their aoe healing? Mistweaver naturally has more tools for AoE healing, but it is probably not intended Mistweaver be as good as a holy priest or shaman at sustained raid damage on 20 people.

[nspeil]

I should do math again. And I believe mistweaver will get worse in 7.2.5

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Mistweaver
Essence Font: Bolts now heal over 8 seconds, up from 6 seconds.
Essence Font: Mana cost reduced by 10%. Now has a 12 second cooldown.

Spec fixed. We did it boyz!

What fixed? It is getting worse. Even w/o 12s cd, this buff is still trivial.

[Nyel]

Mistweaver
Essence Font: Bolts now heal over 8 seconds, up from 6 seconds.
Essence Font: Mana cost reduced by 10%. Now has a 12 second cooldown.

Spec fixed. We did it boyz!

These changes are just pathetic. They don't change anything but make everything worse. Right now I don't know if Blizz is serious or just trolling. Sure we haven't seen the other changes but I don't think they'll benefit MW at all.

[Floopa]

it's not everything ... I hope. if it is then yeah they're nerfing MW hps even further because ... reasons

[Myta]

Sadly the MW will never be capable of giving good feedback, because people can mock and discredit and reimagine reality to deny that anything has ever been, or will ever be wrong with MW class. Then when inevitable reality comes crashing down, Suplift can claim "I always knew MW was bad in Legion, so I'm rerolling".

It doesn't matter what content you do, or what level you do it at. If you cannot give correct criticism, or your criticism revolves around criticizing those why are tackling actual problems than I think it's a fair assessment to say that theory crafting isn't your forte. And if people are having to apologize for your brash and callous behavior maybe the problem is you. Mods shouldn't have to cover for your behavior, your antagonizing taunts and personal attacks. People still like you here, including me, but your egoism will not allow you to like or tolerate anyone else if the conversation does not revolve around you.

Your feedback was wrong, about everything related to Monks in Legion. You were repeatedly telling Monks here and on WoW Forums that things would be fine while they pointed out the exact issues we would have during live if not fixed in Beta. It resulted in muddying the feedback we were able to give to Blizzard during Beta.

There isn't much left of a Mistweaver community anymore. Maybe you will be happy as the last person on these forums having your head patted by your fellows, as it matters more to you than substantive debate.

[Supliftz]

Sadly the MW will never be capable of giving good feedback, because people can mock and discredit and reimagine reality to deny that anything has ever been, or will ever be wrong with MW class. Then when inevitable reality comes crashing down, Suplift can claim "I always knew MW was bad in Legion, so I'm rerolling".

Can you please actually re-read what I said. This is starting to show me the type of mentality you have.

I decided that because after they butchered fistweaving for the last time I realized blizzard never actually wanted fistweaving to be good.

This combined with mistweaving being nerfed multiple times throughout beta I knew that mistweaver would be bad.

Also Disc was similar to old Mistweaver, and like old mw rewards skill so....

I never actually said "I always knew MW was bad in Legion", it was actually the opposite for the majority of the beta. I knew Mistweaver was a competitive spec until they massively nerfed Fistweaving and nerfing Mistweaving playstyles. After the nerfs I stopped thinking the spec would be competitive. All of this was secondary to the fact that I always wanted to play 7.0 disc.

Your feedback was wrong, about everything related to Monks in Legion. You were repeatedly telling Monks here and on WoW Forums that things would be fine while they pointed out the exact issues we would have during live if not fixed in Beta. It resulted in muddying the feedback we were able to give to Blizzard during Beta.

What a distorted view of reality LOL. I love these type of statements people make. It is like when people view cards in hearthstone and say "this could fit into the deck" without ever actually saying anything at all. It's a very safe thing to say that "monk will be bad forever" because you can't actually fight that logic, and makes the person sounds very smart when they get it right. On the contrary, you can't even be 100% wrong because you can just claim "well x spec is 1% better, so Mistweaver is still bad".

what a joke l m a o

Yea sorry I could not predict Mistweaver would not be good when the game comes out when it spent multiple months in the beta of being consistently good. Mistweaver only became objectively bad maybe 2-3 weeks before the game came out, after the fistweaving legendaries were nerfed into oblivion.

There isn't much left of a Mistweaver community anymore. Maybe you will be happy as the last person on these forums having your head patted by your fellows, as it matters more to you than substantive debate.

Oh there is a mistweaver community. Feel free to come on discord anytime . That said, half the mistweaver community died off over 2 years ago when the mistweaver rework was announced.

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it's not everything ... I hope. if it is then yeah they're nerfing MW hps even further because ... reasons

??????? this change is strictly a buff???????????

[nspeil]

Myta is right. Sups you need shut up

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??????? this change is strictly a buff???????????

This is strictly a nerf.

[Supliftz]

>implying you would chain cast ef in tomb of sargeras is a good meme

[Floopa]

with the caveat that there may be more changes, those EF modifications make the spec worse. makes the hps of the spec worse. makes it's raid healing capability worse.

i guess EF got buffed by a whole 12% sp. that's cool :thinking:

[Supliftz]

the raid healing the spec was going to become worse regardless. When you're spamming tft-rem/vivify/effuse/enm all the time, you're going to do a lot less spam raid healing.

that said, with the lower mana cost, and longer hots, despite number changes not being visible (there are buffs to the spells, it is just not in), ef got buffed.

[Deleted]

Its alsways darkest before dawn. Moving healing away from ef spam to rest of the kit is gonna require some changes.

[Nyel]

??????? this change is strictly a buff???????????

that said, with the lower mana cost, and longer hots, despite number changes not being visible (there are buffs to the spells, it is just not in), ef got buffed.

What? How can something like that be a buff? It doesn't change anything except giving us a CD on our only reliable AoE healing skill. The 2sec more of the HoT mean nothing (unless we're going to cover the whole raid with Effuse spam or Vivify is proccing Mastery on every target hit in 7.2.5 but an 8sec duration is still laughable at best for that purpose) and the Mana cost reduction is pretty useless as well.

And it has nothing to do with chain cast EF but sometimes you need to cast two EF in a row just to cover the entire raid. That's impossible with that change and it seems like we get nothing to compensate this nerf. Sure they can move us way from our great AoE healing capabilities and make us a Paladin 2.0 with incredible Mana costs for our skills but that won't improve our situation in the end, it will only make it worse.

Even if they increase Vivify healing by 10%, 15% or 20%, it's still a pretty huge nerf to AoE healing. I don't know if number tweaking can solve all these issues. Increase Effuse healing? Increase Revival healing? What the hag should they do to make us better in that regard?

Essence Font with a 12sec CD doesn't need a 10% Mana cost reduction at all. It's 8k Mana every 12sec, that's nothing. The entire change doesn't make sense right now. I hope we'll see the 7.2.5 notes pretty soon but I doubt Blizzard knows what to do with MW.