is 7/10M the new 3/10M?

[Fleckens]

i been raiding for years got a few cutting edges too...thinking that caring about the "fictional race" is what raiding is about is where you are wrong. raiding is fun, working as a team to achieve an objective is fun...even if that team has gone from 40 to 25 to 20...its pretty much the only enjoyable content in wow....

I pointed this out cause you have some top .5% raider pissing on a 1% raider saying he doesn't have any credibility. Pure bullshit...just some random fart trying to validate his hours and hours playing a game ..

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you seem to fail to understand there is no competition. there is no esport. Its one of the primary reason you see so many of these "top guilds" quiting.

There not #1 because there the best...there #1 because they can dedicate more time to the game then the majority for players. <---that ain't a competition.

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If you think there is this much difference between the top guilds and the top 1% of guilds your delusional. Its that simple. I started saying this because sum guy was arguing that someone in the top 1% of guild dont have credibility.

And i scream bullshit.

The difference between the top .1% and 1% players is time commitment. <----I stand by that statement.

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35 hours in one week is vastly harder? Sitting on your arse playing a video game longer then other people ...is vastly harder.....interesting concept.

I'm in what you probably would consider a top 1% guild, rank 80 Gul'dan and there's a big difference between us and top 5-10 guilds. Notdev already covered most of the reasons so I won't really bother explaining it to you again. And I don't care about your probably end of the expansion cutting edge, the fact that you said you didn't even know anything about this topic until very recently means you clearly aren't the best for arguing about it.

[Notdev]

If you think there is this much difference between the top guilds and the top 1% of guilds your delusional. Its that simple. I started saying this because sum guy was arguing that someone in the top 1% of guild dont have credibility.

And i scream bullshit.

The difference between the top .1% and 1% players is time commitment. <----I stand by that statement.

You're right in that a huge part of the difference is the time commitment. However it is not everything, and probably not even the majority. If we kill Star Augur, we're on the "cusp" of that 1%, given that only 1.4% of wowprogress guilds have killed it. I'm telling you there is a monumental difference between killing Star Augur now and killing him 2+ months ago. This is not up for any sort of debate. He is now a 20-30 pull boss after being a 200-300+ pull boss.

35 hours in one week is vastly harder? Sitting on your arse playing a video game longer then other people ...is vastly harder.....interesting concept.

You're intentionally being obtuse here and ignoring the point. The numbers don't matter. You could say raiding 12 hours week 1 and killing 4 bosses is significantly harder than raiding 4 hours a week for 3 weeks and killing 4 bosses. The point doesn't change.

[Cromatus]

Neither boss was hard before 7.2

Lets be honest we had augur at 10% before the 7.2 nerfs with 1 day of progression 1 day.....
Yes we reached him rather late but that is due to how difficult was to overhowl my entire roster and begin kinda from scratch mid NH.

With 7.2 nerfs most dps checks are gone unless you really are playing with actual disabled people who cant dps at all.
Is 7/10 the new 3/10?

.

wow, spoken like a real elitist.

[Deleted]

The first guilds through do it while making their own strats, where no kill videos exist, doing un nerfed content, with significantly less gear, and less AP in some cases, as well as a variety of other things.

This may have been more true in the past, it is not for Nighthold.
1. First of all, all the top guilds raid extensively on the PTR. They not only have the strats down for most of the bosses, they actually have practice doing the fights before they go live. The only exceptions are untested bosses/phases or complete overhauls, which are extremely rare. If anything, this essentially gives them an advantage on most bosses over non-PTR raiders.

Also, the “making your own strats” part of progression is completely blown out of proportion. For good and experienced players, developing a working strategy during 20+ pulls on a boss is not hard at all. At most, it will save them a few dozen tries compared to a more mistake-prone strategy on one or two bosses, but not alter progression significantly.

Most abilities are so straightforward that the “developing a strategy” part is done within a few pulls at most and then it is just fine tuning with raid CDs, adding or substracting heal slots and refining positioning – which everyone else also has to do, too, since very raid and composition work a bit differently.

2. With the exception of very few bosses, a lot of raids kill them unnerfed. They also don’t have significantly more gear or AP, since the top end guilds went in with 54 and itemlevels of around 900, which is the same as “non-hardcore” raids had for the first weeks.

Add to that they run 3-6 split runs and countless M+ dungeons and the average 900-geared Serenity-player will be significantly more powerful than someone not doing splits due to more optimized gear/full heroic T-sets and so on. Oh, and they are also able to optimize setups, because they know since the PTR what could be good on every fight and have alts to fall back on – while the average raid may be stuck doing Krosus with 4 shadow priests/boomkins on progression.

This all does not mean that their accomplishments are any less impressive or that “everyone” could do it. But as someone who is playing with quite a few former high end raiders, there are many, many players that are as good and even significantly better than many of these guys but just can’t or won’t put in the time. It is not some amazing talent that separates them from the few thousand players bewlow them it is their commitment (which is impressive as well!) 

Raiding, for example, 35 hours in the first week to get to 7/10M is vastly harder than raiding 35 hours in 5 weeks to get to 7/10M. I say this as a 7 hour/week raider. Its not JUST time investment, its going in blind and without multiple "farm" clears worth of loot.
We're about to be 8/10M, but I understand that the Star Augur we're doing now is a completely different fight than the original star augur. We're talking several magnitudes easier. Probably went from one of the hardest 15-20 encounters ever to an average to below average mythic boss. If he was released in the state he is in now, he'd probably be a 10-20 pull boss for the trail blazing guilds.

This I completely agree with. But there is a huge difference doing an unnerfed boss with the same traits and maybe 1-2 itemlevels more (but a worse setup) a few weeks later than the top guilds and doing it months later after significant nerfs and with new traits etc.

[Ebalina]

wow, spoken like a real elitist.

And your point is?
Because i can speak my mind and i stand by my point its elitist?

Let me tell you something in this game you have to let ppl go friends/long time members what ever if you want to progress and they are not pulling their weight.
Is it fun to do ? No it is not but its needed unless you want to be stuck at 3/10 for months.

[Deleted]

This may have been more true in the past, it is not for Nighthold.
1. First of all, all the top guilds raid extensively on the PTR. They not only have the strats down for most of the bosses, they actually have practice doing the fights before they go live. The only exceptions are untested bosses/phases or complete overhauls, which are extremely rare. If anything, this essentially gives them an advantage on most bosses over non-PTR raiders.

Also, the “making your own strats” part of progression is completely blown out of proportion. For good and experienced players, developing a working strategy during 20+ pulls on a boss is not hard at all. At most, it will save them a few dozen tries compared to a more mistake-prone strategy on one or two bosses, but not alter progression significantly.

Most abilities are so straightforward that the “developing a strategy” part is done within a few pulls at most and then it is just fine tuning with raid CDs, adding or substracting heal slots and refining positioning – which everyone else also has to do, too, since very raid and composition work a bit differently.

2. With the exception of very few bosses, a lot of raids kill them unnerfed. They also don’t have significantly more gear or AP, since the top end guilds went in with 54 and itemlevels of around 900, which is the same as “non-hardcore” raids had for the first weeks.

Add to that they run 3-6 split runs and countless M+ dungeons and the average 900-geared Serenity-player will be significantly more powerful than someone not doing splits due to more optimized gear/full heroic T-sets and so on. Oh, and they are also able to optimize setups, because they know since the PTR what could be good on every fight and have alts to fall back on – while the average raid may be stuck doing Krosus with 4 shadow priests/boomkins on progression.

This all does not mean that their accomplishments are any less impressive or that “everyone” could do it. But as someone who is playing with quite a few former high end raiders, there are many, many players that are as good and even significantly better than many of these guys but just can’t or won’t put in the time. It is not some amazing talent that separates them from the few thousand players bewlow them it is their commitment (which is impressive as well!) 

This I completely agree with. But there is a huge difference doing an unnerfed boss with the same traits and maybe 1-2 itemlevels more (but a worse setup) a few weeks later than the top guilds and doing it months later after significant nerfs and with new traits etc.

to build raid strategies is still a really tough work. There are always some less and some more complexe encounter. PTR testing is one way to prepare, but it happens quite often that a fight changes a lot until it hits the lives. We have only a handful of guilds which are capable of doing this job quite effective, while exorsus, method and serenity are very experienced and fast.

Even before videos are released, there are always some dealers of information around. While its an official statement to safe strategies for the own adventage, its usually whistleblowed instantly after a successful kill during the top10 ranks.

All the world first raider had of course at least one character at 54 traits before the NH progress has started.

The gear is usually the weakness point every time. The first 5 bosses were killed by under 900 ilvl. The next 4 bosses incl star augur and elisande were killed by ilvls between 900 and 903(!). Star augur pre nerfed with 902 to 903 gear level is so huge. Guldan finally got killed by ilvls between 904 and 905.

The primary aim for all the split runs are trinkets, set bonuses and relic upgrades. Ilvl upgrades are also important for the hp, but still less imporatant than the other listed stuff.

An additional circumstance what makes top raiders better than the average joe is to play multiple classes at high niveau while even in the second half of the top100 are already players around which have not mastered a single class (even not the main).

[Deleted]

If you want to gauge the current difficulty level of the bosses, just check what the top guilds are doing. For example Exorsus is clearing 8/10 with 3 raids and 10/10 with 2 raids, indicating that Elisande and Gul'dan are in fact quite a bit more challenging that Augur.

[Khrux]

Having only recently killed M-Elisande, I can confirm its a considerable step up from Augur but only because of Augur nerfs(which completed neutered the fight).

The first real challenge on M-Elisande is the dps check of getting through p1 fast to minimise the echoed abilities for next phases. 7.2 solved this with new traits and a general game wide dps increase for raiders. After that its just mechanically a challenging fight with dmg that is so high, any mistakes are life threatening to multiple people at once.

Augur was both a dps check and mechanically challenging fight, they completely neutered the dps checks so anyone that was working on it pretty much killed it immediately after the nerf. Its still mechanically the same, but the fight length is reduced so much that the hard parts like late into fel phase(fire everywhere + conjunction) or killing void phase adds before 3rd "look away" casts don't matter anymore.

I expect a M-Elisande nerf coming in the next few weeks similar to how they treated Augur. They want people to get through this content before ToS and they are well aware from months of data what the bottle necks are.

When it happens, you can expect to see overall hp of adds and elisande nerfed along with damage of epoch orbs and conflexsive burst reduced. This makes phases quicker, the dps requirements and destro lock requirements(I'm joking!) are reduced and mistakes with conflexsive/orbs will be less punishing by being more survivable. (So basically a free kill, like Augur)

[Deleted]

Everyone in this thread commenting about "x% before nerfs" if you didn't kill the boss you didn't kill it. There's no prize for being close pre-nerf.

Lose a race by a meter or a mile, you lost.

I especially like the guy who felt they were very close since they at best wiped at 10% on augur, as if that's the home stretch and there isn't a lot going on there.

[Deleted]

to build raid strategies is still a really tough work. There are always some less and some more complexe encounter. PTR testing is one way to prepare, but it happens quite often that a fight changes a lot until it hits the lives. We have only a handful of guilds which are capable of doing this job quite effective, while exorsus, method and serenity are very experienced and fast.

Sorry, but BS. Except a select few bosses each tier, figuring out how to play a certain boss is piss-easy if your raid lead/officert team has half a brain. Even without the PTR, with thedungeon journal and after doing fights on normal+heroic the first week (several times in fact), you want to tell me that it is so difficult to figure out how to best do Augur, Tichondrius, Krosus and so on on mythic that only a few select People in the world can do it? Laughable.

The only exceptions are bosses with completely unknown phases (and even then you spent 100+ tries on them anyway, making 5-10 tries for "figuring shit out" completely irrelevant) or very innovative strats (Exorsus on Cenarius for example.) 90% of the strats are very similar and only vary in detail (mostly depending on different compositions).

The gear is usually the weakness point every time. The first 5 bosses were killed by under 900 ilvl. The next 4 bosses incl star augur and elisande were killed by ilvls between 900 and 903(!). Star augur pre nerfed with 902 to 903 gear level is so huge. Guldan finally got killed by ilvls between 904 and 905.

My raid "only" got Krosus as world #198 (I think). We did it in 900.X gear. What's ur freaking point? My former raid (raiding only twice a week) only hit an average ilevel of 905 2 weeks ago. Loads of raids are not outgearing tehse Encounters any more or less than the high end raids (and don't optimize Setups or gear the way the latter can).

The primary aim for all the split runs are trinkets, set bonuses and relic upgrades. Ilvl upgrades are also important for the hp, but still less imporatant than the other listed stuff.

Exactly my point. The DPS potential of a high-end ilevel 900 raids is probably 3-5% higher than any other raids DPS potential just because of not running splits/thousands of M+. So don't tell me that everything outside of the top 50 "outgears" anything.

An additional circumstance what makes top raiders better than the average joe is to play multiple classes at high niveau while even in the second half of the top100 are already players around which have not mastered a single class (even not the main).

First of all, I am not talking about "the average Joe". I am talking about capable mythic Players and that hey can be found outside of the top50 or whatever your "cut-off" foseems to be. You really think that excellent players that have mastered one class and just cannot commit the time to play 5 alts lack the ABILITY to master more than one class? Why?

Seriously, high end guilds have "bad" players too. Why? Because a main barrier of entrance is being able to play WoW for an absurd amount of time which excludes many great players from the get-go.

[Bigbazz]

Why are weaker guilds always using the hard way in outgearing bosses. This took way more time and is much more stressful than just to learn mechanics and kill bosses. Trying a boss over and over again without any progress in learning mechanics, just to waste time until the gear is maxed out and the boss is nerfed. The mechanics are so trivial to play on most NH bosses, there is almost no presure (except gul'dan) so you can just stop dps and dodge this spell or move from A to B and start dps'ing again. This is something I will never understand and it is around since vanilla. Getting hit by krosus beam or the eye-beam of augur in last phase is so low. And to get excuses like "the addon didnt showed me the correct beam-side from krosus" or "the addon didnt tell me that I had flames of sargers" brings me to the 50dkp-minus-mode.

It's easy to happen.. Krosus, adds spawn and people switch to adds, desparate to kill the add before it causes massive damage they miss the beam because their camera is faced away and either they missed that it was coming entirely or misjudged the side. Stuff like this happens all the time, people focus intently on something important which causes them to miss something else, and that catches them out.

And lets not forget, as I already mentioned in NH specifically it's true that many/most weaker guilds were largely doing the bosses with lower ilvl, less stat optimisation and lower artifact levels than the good guilds were while progressing, despite facing the bosses weeks/months later. So they are lower skilled players, with less gear, trying to kill the same boss with less raiding hours in a week, combined with huge roster issues that often stop guilds raiding entirely for some weeks.

Not to forget that a lot of these guilds have a few good players carrying many average/mediocre players too, it doesn't take much to realise that progress is going to be largely stunted if you have a number of players (that you can't replace) who are going to frequently mess up, which will ultimately result in a wipe.... I think it's pretty blind to think that guilds are just intentionally waiting to overgear bosses, it's rather a combination of circumstances forcing that outcome.

[OrcsRLame]

Finally got Augur down as a 2 day per week guild!

We 1 tank 3 healed it, because fuck safety. Who needs to do mechanics when you skip all the mechanics with massive dps? Kappa

We literally just burned lust in P2 so we only had to do 1 Fel Nova and 1 Conjunction. This is definitely the strat I would recommend for any guilds that are starting progress on this fight.

[beatmyface]

Make sure to have a bear. Lolololol blizzard we are OP plz nerf, but for real it was fun as bear

[Deleted]

Sorry, but BS. Except a select few bosses each tier, figuring out how to play a certain boss is piss-easy if your raid lead/officert team has half a brain. Even without the PTR, with thedungeon journal and after doing fights on normal+heroic the first week (several times in fact), you want to tell me that it is so difficult to figure out how to best do Augur, Tichondrius, Krosus and so on on mythic that only a few select People in the world can do it? Laughable.

The only exceptions are bosses with completely unknown phases (and even then you spent 100+ tries on them anyway, making 5-10 tries for "figuring shit out" completely irrelevant) or very innovative strats (Exorsus on Cenarius for example.) 90% of the strats are very similar and only vary in detail (mostly depending on different compositions).


My raid "only" got Krosus as world #198 (I think). We did it in 900.X gear. What's ur freaking point? My former raid (raiding only twice a week) only hit an average ilevel of 905 2 weeks ago. Loads of raids are not outgearing tehse Encounters any more or less than the high end raids (and don't optimize Setups or gear the way the latter can).


Exactly my point. The DPS potential of a high-end ilevel 900 raids is probably 3-5% higher than any other raids DPS potential just because of not running splits/thousands of M+. So don't tell me that everything outside of the top 50 "outgears" anything.


First of all, I am not talking about "the average Joe". I am talking about capable mythic Players and that hey can be found outside of the top50 or whatever your "cut-off" foseems to be. You really think that excellent players that have mastered one class and just cannot commit the time to play 5 alts lack the ABILITY to master more than one class? Why?

Seriously, high end guilds have "bad" players too. Why? Because a main barrier of entrance is being able to play WoW for an absurd amount of time which excludes many great players from the get-go.

It makes no sense to seperate all this stuff. As a world #1/3/5 raider you must bring all the stuff in the first couple of weeks. You must inventing strategies at complexe bosses (as I said there are some more complexe and some less complexe bosses around; I never told you that krosus was an big issue) fairly quick, while you are undergeared, under pressure and (this is new in legion) already on burnout through all the mess before the progression phase even starts. But this is nothing new for the people on that ranks, they are experienced and they know how to handle it.

Unfortunately you are underestimating the inventing process a little bit. All of that guilds have already a blue-print how they are going to progress before mythic is open, due to how normal/heroic works, the cryptic dungeon journal and some first impressions of the PTR. So they trying to figure out which is the best possible raid setup for each boss to set the gearing strategy for the first normal/heroic week.

Its actually true that exorsus was falling behind at tichondrius, because they have used a different and much more difficult tactic (like to handle the carrion swarm seperatly and not stack-wise). This is something pretty dangerous, because you are still in hurry. You have already invested a lot of time in this tactic, is it worth to drop the old tactic and try the tactic from the competitors? In the tichondrius-case it was more or less an pretty easy decission for exorsus to switch, because they have already twice as much attempts at tichondrius as the competitors counter at the kill.

Next big issue was star augur. Exorsus went to star augur before bota, because they couldnt imagine how hard bota was and star augur was seemingly not that complexe, while a competitor just went to bota and smacked the boss in no-time. Exorsus had only a few attempts on star augur, but it was more than obvious after some few tries that this is a real tough tuned boss. So Exorsus left star augur behind and killed bota in no-time.

The star augur fight was really hard tuned. Only a few players have predicted that (me as well after I have seen the numbers in heroic compared to the other bosses before mythic was released, so I was pretty sure he was the "baleroc" of the raid). Even the top guilds were not fully prepared for such a situation (to bring 20+ really strong dps classes). And the last phase of star augur was just ridiculous - the add had way too much health to kill it, so you was forced to offtank two of the adds and nuke the boss away. The dps race required flawless gameplay of every single raid member - not a single death, not a single mess-up in deff CD rotation. Elisande as the next boss at her first state was on par with star augur. Pretty tough dps race, no room for additional healers, but still immense raid damage input. Try to imagine you are on ilvl 902 to 903 on that point. If this is all so easy like you tell, why are only a handful of guilds able to kill these bosses prenerfed? Time? Not really, at least all the top10 guilds have spent as much time as the top3 did, but they were almost a week slower to clear the cathouse.

Its by far not so easy you imagine. And again, no one cares about the easy bosses in a progress phase. No one gives a shit about krosus in the competition bracket. Star Augur, Elisande and Guldan were the real bosses (in their original forms). To kill these bosses in the first 2 weeks is an good achievement. And believe me that guilds in the upper 100 range would never be in the position to beat augur and elisande pre-nerfed - even with unlimited time, 915+ gear and new traits. Its hard to believe, but skill exists.

[Deleted]

Yeah, simply not true. Like, I play with former DT players. They are good, but none is even a top5 player in my current raid (neither in skill nor talking/refining strats and understanding mechanics). Somehow they finished #3, #5 and #9 in Legion and were top 30 even before going more hardcore in WoD.

The stuff you listed may make the difference in whether you kill a boss some hours before someone else when everyone is progressing the same amount of time (because you wasted 2 hours with a more complicated strategy or whatever). I doesn't mean that there is a huge gap between those raids perofrmance wise though - the "worse" raid will just kill the boss one/two days of progression later.

Plus, and that is really the point you make yourself: it is much more about organization and planning and manmagement and not about skill. All of these things are done by a few officers. The average raider in those raids just plays his ass off and that's it.

[Deja Thoris]

It's easy to happen.. Krosus, adds spawn and people switch to adds, desparate to kill the add before it causes massive damage they miss the beam because their camera is faced away and either they missed that it was coming entirely or misjudged the side. Stuff like this happens all the time, people focus intently on something important which causes them to miss something else, and that catches them out.

And lets not forget, as I already mentioned in NH specifically it's true that many/most weaker guilds were largely doing the bosses with lower ilvl, less stat optimisation and lower artifact levels than the good guilds were while progressing, despite facing the bosses weeks/months later. So they are lower skilled players, with less gear, trying to kill the same boss with less raiding hours in a week, combined with huge roster issues that often stop guilds raiding entirely for some weeks.

Not to forget that a lot of these guilds have a few good players carrying many average/mediocre players too, it doesn't take much to realise that progress is going to be largely stunted if you have a number of players (that you can't replace) who are going to frequently mess up, which will ultimately result in a wipe.... I think it's pretty blind to think that guilds are just intentionally waiting to overgear bosses, it's rather a combination of circumstances forcing that outcome.

It's a good post but its probably wasted on people like him. They can't conceive that circumstances outside their own exist and that these things are generally a combination of many factors that build up a picture.
It's like decrying people behind on AP as "lazy" when they may infact work a stressful job and have RL stuff that takes a lot of time too. Then all the forum vomit starts about "kick all people below x traits they obv don't give a shit!". It's never that simple.

[Deleted]

8/10 and 9/10 are the thing you'll see the most.