Any1 else dont rly care bout flyin?

[-Joker-]

So: If flying is like a cheat from other games, then it stands to reason that if you can stop yourself from cheating in other games to preserve your own fun, playing the game the way "it was originally intended", then you should also be able to stop yourself from flying to do the same.

That's right. Some people prefer to cheat... like fliers.

[Deleted]

Flying is important and shouldn't be ignored. It is of much greater help then you can imagine.

[Leih]

So: If flying is like a cheat from other games, then it stands to reason that if you can stop yourself from cheating in other games to preserve your own fun, playing the game the way "it was originally intended", then you should also be able to stop yourself from flying to do the same.

Since you guys are going back and forth on this analogy, I can't help but point out that you shouldn't forget that WoW is a multiplayer game. By The Emperor might be perfectly able to resist cheating when playing a single player alone, but when you're in a massively multiplayer environment and almost everyone else is freely using cheat codes, then it feels bad to be the only one who doesn't just because you want to stubbornly try to preserve integrity.

That said... I totally agree that the feeling of flying would be INFINITELY better if they designed the expansion & zones around the expectation that you're going to have and need flying. Then it would feel like part of the game rather than sort of "the upgrade" we get mid-expansion that makes everything we've been doing the past year faster and easier.

Maybe now that we have flying, they might consider doing this on Argus instead of just making it another no-fly zone for 7.3? That'd be awesome.

Although I wonder if Blizzard's reluctance to design the game around Flying is something to do with the reaction people had to things like Vashj'ir - people were really scared of 3D navigation and combat.

[Thimagryn]

There is a difference between lodging a complaint... and incessant whining.

Yes, and that difference is your subjective opinion, nothing more. There is no line that you can form when it comes to perceiving feedback, because no matter whhat everyone has their biases.

Any complaint can be perceived as whining. When seen on a large scale, multiple legitimate complaints from different people will end up looking like a collective whinefest. That's not everyone else's problem, that is your personal problem.

[Gsara]

Enjoying it a whole lot and glad its finally in the game although I still think you should be able to buy when you hit 110.

[Thimagryn]

That's right. Some people prefer to cheat... like fliers.

[Deleted]

I dont give a flying f**k <3

[Thimagryn]

No, because as I said it's like cheating, not actually cheating. Its design is on about the same level of quality as an actual cheat, as if it was never intended to be added to the game or given access to for players. Actual features should be better designed than this, better thought out.

That's a poor example. You could apply that to any quality of life change and use 'intended design' as an excuse. All that extra bag space you've gained over the course of expansions? That's like cheating, since it was never intended for you to be able to hold that much stuff. Using a hearthstone after a dungeon? That's like cheating because intended design is for you to walk back to the exit.

Intended design is meaningless, since all gameplay experience is user-driven, not a tailored experience by design like watching a movie or reading a book.

[Huntaer]

Hmm well at least flying will be useful now. Compared to WoD.

Sum ppl dunt care m8 but why create the thread. tbh ffs rly

And can someone translate this for me please?

[Deleted]

I don´t need it.

Didn´t quest in Suramar till now ! It needs too much time, so I don´t care about it.

[rda]

And can someone translate this for me please?

I was making fun of the language in the name of the thread.

[DechCJC]

I just want it for my alts, it's only a slight convenience for my main. This is probably the worst rep grind i've ever had to do, and I actually quite enjoy Legion.

[SirCowdog]

Since you guys are going back and forth on this analogy, I can't help but point out that you shouldn't forget that WoW is a multiplayer game. By The Emperor might be perfectly able to resist cheating when playing a single player alone, but when you're in a massively multiplayer environment and almost everyone else is freely using cheat codes, then it feels bad to be the only one who doesn't just because you want to stubbornly try to preserve integrity.

That said... I totally agree that the feeling of flying would be INFINITELY better if they designed the expansion & zones around the expectation that you're going to have and need flying. Then it would feel like part of the game rather than sort of "the upgrade" we get mid-expansion that makes everything we've been doing the past year faster and easier.

Maybe now that we have flying, they might consider doing this on Argus instead of just making it another no-fly zone for 7.3? That'd be awesome.

Although I wonder if Blizzard's reluctance to design the game around Flying is something to do with the reaction people had to things like Vashj'ir - people were really scared of 3D navigation and combat.

One of the main points I was trying to get across lately is how other people flying("cheating") doesn't actually have much of an impact on other players, especially when put within the correct context of other things which also can put one player further ahead than another, or give them advantage.

Mob tagging is miles ahead of how it used to be. Gathering nodes are also multi-tap. Monster respawns are fairly quick, especially for quest objectives. And you're going to have a hard time convincing me that flying gives more of an advantage to players than raw differences in iLVL and BiS legendaries. And that doesn't even take into account things outside of the game, such as one player being able to play twice the hours as another, or just plain having a better connection to the game servers.

I'm going to keep poking holes in this idea that everyone is in competition with each other. Is there a prize for getting content done before anyone else? Maybe if you're a top .005% super hardcore progression raider with a stream that's competing for viewers. But for everyone else? The content doesn't disappear if someone does it earlier in the day than you, and certainly doesn't cease to exist or have relevance to you if someone flies to it while you use a ground mount.

The only time your'e actually going to get left behind by the community is when an entirely new tier of content gets released and everyone moves on to consuming that instead of the older stuff. And even then Legion does a fair job of mitigating that by ensuring WQs scale up, and invasions scale down for lower level players.

People have bought into this idea that flight is so heavily flawed and damaging that they're not seeing the larger context.

[Leih]

I'm going to keep poking holes in this idea that everyone is in competition with each other. Is there a prize for getting content done before anyone else? Maybe if you're a top .005% super hardcore progression raider with a stream that's competing for viewers. But for everyone else? The content doesn't disappear if someone does it earlier in the day than you, and certainly doesn't cease to exist or have relevance to you if someone flies to it while you use a ground mount.

It's nothing to do with competition. Unless you're on a PVP server, then it very much is, but I digress.

Speaking purely in terms of PVE perspective, it's not about competing with people. It's not about being left behind in terms of progression content (though that might be the case if you're a very time-limited player).

It's more to do with the fact that although other people flying doesn't physically have a big effect on you, it has a HUGE psychological effect. It's not that they're directly competing with you, it's that it takes an insane amount of willpower and stubbornness to see so many other people swooping about clearing things very quickly and efficiently and to reason with yourself that although you could do the exact same you're going to resist doing so even when it's really inconvenient for you simply to stubbornly trying to cling to the way things used to be. Even if you resist at first, how long does that last before you give in to the convenience one day and slide down that slippery slope?

Obviously your response to this is probably going to be "But if it's so hard to resist flying, then clearly walking is not all it's cracked up to be!" but that's not really the point. When you have to CHOOSE on a repeatable task between extreme convenience or the more difficult route (which offers no additional reward but self satisfaction) you might take the latter option once or twice but eventually convenience trumps everything, even if it causes other problems.

This whole thing would be moot if they designed the game with flying in mind. And as I've said before, even the way things are now I'm overall pro-flying and think the trade-offs are worth it in the end... but I do think this whole thing of "it doesn't affect you just don't fly if you don't want to fly" is a bit flawed. Psychologically, it has a big effect. You must have some crazy levels of willpower if you can claim it doesn't affect you.

[Deleted]

If you want it get it, if you don't care about it you'll get it anyways sooner or later. I don't give a flying rat, and I'm 2k into honored.

[-Joker-]

Yes, and that difference is your subjective opinion, nothing more. There is no line that you can form when it comes to perceiving feedback, because no matter whhat everyone has their biases.

Any complaint can be perceived as whining. When seen on a large scale, multiple legitimate complaints from different people will end up looking like a collective whinefest. That's not everyone else's problem, that is your personal problem.

Even the simplest of people understand the difference between lodging a legitimate complaint, and being a whiny bitch.

[Fuze]

I used to, until i got revered then everything became easier and i can't let go now :P

[Thimagryn]

Even the simplest of people understand the difference between lodging a legitimate complaint, and being a whiny bitch.

Then stop being a whiny bitch

[clevin]

Since I knew someone would say exactly that, I already answered that one:



Using a ground mount when I know I have a fly mount feels just as bad. I'm left with two awful options and neither feel fun because of the other.

I will never understand people who enjoy "exploring" on a fly mount, you're stuck in the air on your mount unable to really do anything, it's so similar to enabling some fly cheat in a game where flying was never intended. There's no environment to interact with, no danger, it's just you in the void of space and the distance to your destination.

However it's still your choice...YOUR CHOICE.

Don't tell us that you really love conquering the environment and fighting mobs... that you find that fun and enjoy it... and then say "but I have to fly and give that fun up." No, you don't. Do what YOU find fun.

"But I give up advantages..." Yes, you do. What's more important *to you* - having fun or gaining advantages? In fact, it's not a binary choice at all. You can fly when you need or want the advantage (farming, etc) and ride on the ground when not. Imagine that! Choosing what to do based on your own criteria!

But stop this childish bullshit of not accepting that you control your actions. It's annoying to have people who are supposedly adults complain that they're forced to do X, Y or Z. Play how you want to.

And if you don't get this... when there's no flight *I* can't play how *I* want to - there's no choice possible. Now, there is. So make a choice based on what you enjoy. It's a game, after all. The POINT is enjoyment.

[

it's just you in the void of space and the distance to your destination

Go fly over Stormheim. It's FAR more dramatic and prettier than seeing just a narrow path on the ground. Don't agree? Awesome. Ride, then. I don't have to justify my choice to you anymore than you have to justify yours to me. For the hundredth time... you do you. Let other people do their thing. Accept that people are different and that simply being different does not make them right or wrong. It makes them... different.

[SirCowdog]

It's nothing to do with competition. Unless you're on a PVP server, then it very much is, but I digress.

Speaking purely in terms of PVE perspective, it's not about competing with people. It's not about being left behind in terms of progression content (though that might be the case if you're a very time-limited player).

It's more to do with the fact that although other people flying doesn't physically have a big effect on you, it has a HUGE psychological effect. It's not that they're directly competing with you, it's that it takes an insane amount of willpower and stubbornness to see so many other people swooping about clearing things very quickly and efficiently and to reason with yourself that although you could do the exact same you're going to resist doing so even when it's really inconvenient for you simply to stubbornly trying to cling to the way things used to be. Even if you resist at first, how long does that last before you give in to the convenience one day and slide down that slippery slope?

Obviously your response to this is probably going to be "But if it's so hard to resist flying, then clearly walking is not all it's cracked up to be!" but that's not really the point. When you have to CHOOSE on a repeatable task between extreme convenience or the more difficult route (which offers no additional reward but self satisfaction) you might take the latter option once or twice but eventually convenience trumps everything, even if it causes other problems.

This whole thing would be moot if they designed the game with flying in mind. And as I've said before, even the way things are now I'm overall pro-flying and think the trade-offs are worth it in the end... but I do think this whole thing of "it doesn't affect you just don't fly if you don't want to fly" is a bit flawed. Psychologically, it has a big effect. You must have some crazy levels of willpower if you can claim it doesn't affect you.

And now you understand why one of my main arguing points is to make flying and ground mounts a more equal choice, even if that involves slowing down or making flight less of a No-Clip mode. I think it should also involve speeding up or adding other utility powers to ground mounts, but most people aren't open to that idea.

Also, thank you for recognizing that the ground content is simply not good enough to justify restricting flight for so long. It's one of the main complaints everyone has about how Pathfinder was handled this expansion. I think it's VERY telling how some people defend the idea that removing flight allows Blizzard to make better content, but they abandon that "better content" for the skies the moment flying is available because "It's more efficient". If the ground-only game is so strong and enjoyable because flight isn't there, why is it such a hard decision to keep playing it from the ground?

So I disagree that you need "crazy levels of willpower" to keep doing what you personally enjoy. People play non-optimal builds in WoW all the time because they're more fun. Some people stick to the class they enjoy even when it gets nerfed to the bottom of the tier list instead of rerolling to the "best" class. I'll grant that the gap between raw speed of flying and ground mounts is larger than the gap between top DPS class/spec. But with gliding, the flightmaster whistle, and other class movement abilities(which can be used almost anywhere, even where flying doesn't work) I think that difference in convenience in utility isn't enough to make people's fun irrelevant.

This REALLY is just a matter of choosing to keep playing the game how you enjoy. I just think a lot of people don't hate flying nearly as much as they say they do. and probably don't really enjoy the grounded experience as much as they say they do either. All they need to do is stop drinking the Blizzard coolaid when it comes to using flight as a scapegoat for everything wrong with wow.

Ultimately, though, yes Blizzard needs to do a better job of handling flight. Like I said in another post, just adding a fatigue bar to how long you could stay in the air would open up all kinds of possibilities for interesting gameplay to control the power of flying. Making it work like Emerald Winds would be another way. Even setting the ground and air mounts to the same raw speed would clear up some of the complaints. Put more of the quests indoors, add "Kill boss and X of his guards" instead of just "kill boss" to the quests. Have more enemies use grapples when guarding a quest area. There's literally hundreds, if not thousands, of ways to make flying more interesting and fit it into the existing open world structure without even having to develop entirely new mechanics.