Huge CoEN nerf

[Tojara]

How is that a bad thing?
Right cause putting effort in to something even if its 1 thing and 1 thing only in the game is bad?

I stand by my point it was fine and it would of been fine when you obtained ToS gear even more so.
There needs to be something more apart from just random arbitrary numbers that separates the dungeons.

Uh. I haven't really done a lot of CoEN simply because I haven't gotten keys for it, but that logic is pretty absurd.

The whole point of M+ and keystone levels is for them to have general parity in their difficulty. Is it going to be exact? No. To claim however that one should be way harder than the rest of them when they drop the exact same type of loot is completely backwards in design and makes no sense.

One of the dungeons has to be the hardest, and that's fine. It's absolutely fine design if CoEN hit that check box. It however shouldn't be so much harder than the other dungeons that it's really not worth doing. From an overall efficiency standpoint, I would just stay away from it if that was the case, and that my friend, is terrible design. Same problem existed with MoS pre-7.2, where people just did MoS because it was the most efficient source of AP (at least until people stopped caring about AP).

I don't think you understand scaling or difficulty very much if you think ToS gear is going to fix it. That difficulty problem is still going to exist lol. Yeah you're going to get more gear which will make the earlier levels of that CoEN easier. But I ask, why do CoEN if you could do way higher of other keys with that new ToS gear? That's right, you won't, which is why they changed it.

I'm all for difficulty, but having something arbitrarily that much more difficult "just because" makes absolutely no sense in the fucking system they ended up designing, it's just downright retarded. I say that as somebody who has done CoEN like twice (base mythic and like a +7 or something, which wasn't too difficult for me, but it still felt way harder than any of the old dungeons at much higher level). I did however watch my guild mates do a 15 prior to the changes and beat it like an hour after the timer expired. I ask, why would they waste time in the future if the difficulty stayed the same, when they routinely +2-3 most of the other dungeons?

[Deja Thoris]

How is that a bad thing?
Right cause putting effort in to something even if its 1 thing and 1 thing only in the game is bad?

I stand by my point it was fine and it would of been fine when you obtained ToS gear even more so.
There needs to be something more apart from just random arbitrary numbers that separates the dungeons.

Wait, you need it explaining why its a bad thing?

It's kind of a founding principle that a +3 should mean a somewhat equal difficulty so that people know what to expect. A +3 CoS shouldn't br easy and a +3 CoEN hell for the same people. Thats called bad design.

It has nothing to do with "putting more effort in". Are you really this stupid? I feel like you're missing the point or a world class troll.

[Crysth]

Wait, you need it explaining why its a bad thing?

It's kind of a founding principle that a +3 should mean a somewhat equal difficulty so that people know what to expect. A +3 CoS shouldn't br easy and a +3 CoEN hell for the same people. Thats called bad design.

It has nothing to do with "putting more effort in". Are you really this stupid? I feel like you're missing the point or a world class troll.

Probably a troll, unless they provide links or proof of some sort. Lots of people sit on the internet claiming feats with no proof, and that it was easy to do because they weren't shit.

Overall, I don't mind a challenge. However, when you have a tiered system (such as the M+ key levels), then there is an expectation that all things on the same tier should be roughly equal. If you can 3 chest a COS+7, then get a COEN+10 and it isn't a +3 jump in difficulty, then something is wrong. When you step up 3 ranks, you shouldn't have to now accomplish the equivalent of +7-10 ranks. It'll kill keys, and force people to re-level different keys in order to hope they don't get the one that isn't impossible at much too low of a key level.

[Count Zero]

CoEN and Kara should be tuned to be like ... their difficulty at +0 (just straight mythic) should be about the same as other dungeons at +2. So just slightly harder than the rest. imo.

[Ebalina]

Probably a troll, unless they provide links or proof of some sort. Lots of people sit on the internet claiming feats with no proof, and that it was easy to do because they weren't shit.

Overall, I don't mind a challenge. However, when you have a tiered system (such as the M+ key levels), then there is an expectation that all things on the same tier should be roughly equal. If you can 3 chest a COS+7, then get a COEN+10 and it isn't a +3 jump in difficulty, then something is wrong. When you step up 3 ranks, you shouldn't have to now accomplish the equivalent of +7-10 ranks. It'll kill keys, and force people to re-level different keys in order to hope they don't get the one that isn't impossible at much too low of a key level.

Troll ..... prolly think before you post.

Highest one i've done in CoEN was a 11 i think cant remember or a 10.
It felt fine and that was during the tyrannical.

I never said its not hard i said good that it has such huge steep diffrence from 7-10.

[Crysth]

Troll ..... prolly think before you post.

Highest one i've done in CoEN was a 11 i think cant remember or a 10.
It felt fine and that was during the tyrannical.

I never said its not hard i said good that it has such huge steep diffrence from 7-10.

There's already the inherent jump from a 9-10 just from tyrannical (not counting the actual increase of a higher key), which for these bosses is much more significant than any other dungeon. This disparity between it and other dungeons only gets exacerbated as you go even higher in keys. This week, even after the nerf, a +15 was so painful it just wasn't fun. Abilities we couldn't avoid we nearly 1 shotting us, and forcing our healer was pulling crazy numbers to keep us alive. We had near permanent 5 stacks of Greivous during bosses (usually only taken off when he popped Tranq). A +16 would probably have been out of the question (we might could have done it, since we had our strat refined during the +15). Whereas, we could easily handle a +15 or higher of any other dungeon, without the ever-present fear of 1 shots.

[Etoo]

Good. If they are going to gate shit behind completing a mythic, then it needs to be doable by 90+% of the player base.

[Crysth]

Good. If they are going to gate shit behind completing a mythic, then it needs to be doable by 90+% of the player base.

I must be ignorant of something, but what is gated here?

[Etoo]

I must be ignorant of something, but what is gated here?

Legendary crafting, for one.

[Osmeric]

It was fine the way it was.

Obviously you are wrong.

[Ebalina]

Obviously you are wrong.

Prove me wrong then?
Or we just gonna post random bullshit together?

The dungeon was fine as it was.

- - - Updated - - -

There's already the inherent jump from a 9-10 just from tyrannical (not counting the actual increase of a higher key), which for these bosses is much more significant than any other dungeon. This disparity between it and other dungeons only gets exacerbated as you go even higher in keys. This week, even after the nerf, a +15 was so painful it just wasn't fun. Abilities we couldn't avoid we nearly 1 shotting us, and forcing our healer was pulling crazy numbers to keep us alive. We had near permanent 5 stacks of Greivous during bosses (usually only taken off when he popped Tranq). A +16 would probably have been out of the question (we might could have done it, since we had our strat refined during the +15). Whereas, we could easily handle a +15 or higher of any other dungeon, without the ever-present fear of 1 shots.

I still do not see the problem in that.
I honestly do not see it, forces people to experiment and try new stuff and actually play better which in the end is what it matters not clearing dungeon for AP/loot.

[Alexeht]

Yeah there was absolutely nothing wrong in that most people avoid m+ CoEN before nerf.

[Manabomb]

Prove me wrong then?
Or we just gonna post random bullshit together?

The dungeon was fine as it was.

- - - Updated - - -



I still do not see the problem in that.
I honestly do not see it, forces people to experiment and try new stuff and actually play better which in the end is what it matters not clearing dungeon for AP/loot.

Because it doesn't promote experimentation. It promotes deleting your CoEN key as soon as you get it and starting over. Your logic is only good assuming you can't just not do CoEN. As soon as the option becomes available your entire argument of strategy and play better-ness falls apart, because players are only THERE for AP/loot. And if they can get better loot/faster AP from a dungeon that is substantially easier, they will. They did. And this is Blizzards response to that.

Edit: Hell if they wanted to they could have upped the difficulty of every other mythic+ dungeon to the level of CoEN prenerf and that would have been fine too. The problem is having 1-2 dungeons in a pool of 10-15 that are outliers. Either being too easy or too hard is not good for how the m+ system works.

[Ebalina]

Because it doesn't promote experimentation. It promotes deleting your CoEN key as soon as you get it and starting over. Your logic is only good assuming you can't just not do CoEN. As soon as the option becomes available your entire argument of strategy and play better-ness falls apart, because players are only THERE for AP/loot. And if they can get better loot/faster AP from a dungeon that is substantially easier, they will. They did. And this is Blizzards response to that.

Edit: Hell if they wanted to they could have upped the difficulty of every other mythic+ dungeon to the level of CoEN prenerf and that would have been fine too. The problem is having 1-2 dungeons in a pool of 10-15 that are outliers. Either being too easy or too hard is not good for how the m+ system works.

The problem here is blizzard not putting rewards that are proper for the difficulty not the dungeon it self is what you are saying and even then people would of moaned that its hard.

So again whats the problem of been hard if the rewards are proper for it?
Right nothing but since entitlement settles in its easy to scream NERF PLX PLOX .

[Osmeric]

Prove me wrong then?
Or we just gonna post random bullshit together?

Many others here have explained why you are wrong. The previous relative difficulty level does not work as a game design element. Blizzard's actions -- an unusually powerful set of nerfs -- show they also think your claim was wrong.

You should try to refute the arguments rather than continuing to display such refractory cluelessness.

So again whats the problem of been hard if the rewards are proper for it?

But there's a way to achieve that: run the place on a higher M+ level. There's no argument that, at a given M+ level, it should be harder than other dungeons. Such a design is obviously broken and fails in the obvious way that it obviously failed.

[Deja Thoris]

The problem here is blizzard not putting rewards that are proper for the difficulty not the dungeon it self is what you are saying and even then people would of moaned that its hard.

So again whats the problem of been hard if the rewards are proper for it?
Right nothing but since entitlement settles in its easy to scream NERF PLX PLOX .

Logical arguments
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Your posts

Really dude. Even Blizzard admitted something was wrong by nerfing abilities by 60% yet here you are fighting logic and common sense again. Give it a rest.

[Ebalina]

Logical arguments
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Your posts

Really dude. Even Blizzard admitted something was wrong by nerfing abilities by 60% yet here you are fighting logic and common sense again. Give it a rest.

Really dude?
Who cares what blizzard admits or not?
My point is still there and its still valid.
There was no reason for the nerf not all dungeons should scales the same as others do.
Give it a rest and deal with it.
I have diffrent opinion then you so i must be wrong, it is not how it works in the real world i'm afraid but you keep going.

[Deja Thoris]

Really dude?
Who cares what blizzard admits or not?
My point is still there and its still valid.
There was no reason for the nerf not all dungeons should scales the same as others do.
Give it a rest and deal with it.
I have diffrent opinion then you so i must be wrong, it is not how it works in the real world i'm afraid but you keep going.

This isn't a matter of opinion. It's not "do you prefer chocolate or potato chips?" The dungeon was objectively too hard. So yes, you're wrong. Learn to accept when you're wrong kiddo.

[Tojara]

Not really a matter of opinion. Dungeon was deemed too hard, and they changed it.

It's been said a hundred times in this thread, it makes no sense that one dungeon is way harder than another, given they all give the same rewards. Yeah, you could make the reward from CoEN better, but that would both be confusing and arbitrarily weird to implement. Not only is it stupid, but it would seem jarring that a CoEN magically gives the same iLvL or AP as another dungeon that is 5-6 keystone levels higher than it?

It just doesn't make any fucking sense and it's not a matter of opinion, it's just retarded backwards design and I'm not sure why you're arguing otherwise.

Considering there is a system in place currently with M+ that makes you decide the difficulty (UH MAKING THE KEYSTONE GO HIGHER?), it makes zero design sense to have one way harder than the others, when you could just push a key higher and achieve the exact same fucking thing lol.

[Kagonos]

Really dude?
Who cares what blizzard admits or not?
My point is still there and its still valid.
There was no reason for the nerf not all dungeons should scales the same as others do.
Give it a rest and deal with it.
I have diffrent opinion then you so i must be wrong, it is not how it works in the real world i'm afraid but you keep going.

For all your asking others to clarify their reasoning for why they disagree with YOU, why don't you spend a moment and clarify why 1 single dungeon (or 2 or 3, it doesn't matter) is inherently and inexplicably harder than all the rest when set to similar keystone levels? You like it because, what? You are so good that it WASN'T hard for YOU and your buddies and you want to feel extra good that others are having a harder time than you did? Do you just believe that there should be significantly more difficult dungeons just for the sake of having 1 really super hard dungeon?

There already exist dungeons that are harder than others in the sense that they require more attention to positioning, and with certain affixes, they naturally become more difficult than other dungeons. Tyrannical Xavius's Prey on the Weak is potentially deadly on higher mythics, and that's perfectly fine. Dresaron, same thing. The Earthshaking Roar SHOULD be a scary thing that can kill you if you're not playing correctly. I WANT there to be more challenge as the level of the dungeon increases, that's the point. But to have 1 dungeon that is a significant outlier (strictly in damage output by bosses) than all the others when there is no reason for that to be the case then no, there is no truly valid argument to be made for it's continuance. Harder mechanics? That's fine, those dungeons already exist and what might not be hard for you might be hard for someone else and that's perfectly acceptable from a player's and a game designer's perspective.