They are increasing the cost of death coil???

[Noxinator]

Army is a boring old spell that needs to be updated or removed completely. We already have an army effect from Apocalypse, we do not need two of those.

[Deleted]

That's not army doing that though. That's army + all the procs in the world + bloodlust + pots + all your other cooldowns.


Army in itself is completely unworthy of being called a 10 minute cooldown, I wouldn't even call it worthy of 3 minutes in it's current iteration.

It´s almost entirely the doing of army. The direct dmg Army does isnt the decisive factor. The debuffs they put up are huge though.
Combine that with Draged to Helheim explosion and it is a significant cooldown. Especially considering it lasts 40seconds and can be cast before pull.

[Kerathyl]

I hope this doesn't lead to more wait-time in our rotation. I find having nothing to press a lot worse than wasting a bit of runic power.

[Deleted]

I hope this doesn't lead to more wait-time in our rotation. I find having nothing to press a lot worse than wasting a bit of runic power.

Ofc it does lead to more "unused" GCDs. Thats the entire point of the change.
Currently we are overflowing with ressources. This means that alot of legendaries and talents are not even worth using, since they add even more ressources that we dont need.

The DK ressource system just like any other energy based system doesn´t work well when you are GCD capped and Blizzard finally realized that in case of DKs aswell.

[Raiz]

snip

I'm trying to get inside a blizz class balance's head :
On one hand, we have like 90% (made up number) of unholy DK saying they're overcapping in ressources, this is a known blizz issue. We need to do something about it.
On the other hand, we have the rest (read only 10%) that pick the necrosis talents because they can afford to (aka all the dks that have at least 2 good legendaries + 4 sets), meaning they like doing damage with necrosis and dc and would kind of like to remain as it is.
Believe it or not, I'm pretty sure Blizzard is adressing this issue with the base players first and foremost. Now if they can also do something to make the elitist happy, it's a bonus.

What would you suggest to him ? AotD isn't the main problem nor is festering wounds. While I agree with the rest of your post, you need to consider the changes is based to the whole UH community. They don't care if Death Coil affects the elitist's gameplay because it only represents a minor portion of the UH community. There are far more casual players than you'd like to think. I mean, I'd like the know the real numbers of UH players with 4 or, god forbid, 2 sets.

We need something to do with the ressources capping first, and then they'll find something about the necrosis issues (or AotD or festering wounds whatever).

[Rixarius]

I hope this doesn't lead to more wait-time in our rotation. I find having nothing to press a lot worse than wasting a bit of runic power.

It's hard to balance I'd imagine. During periods of high haste (Lust, sephuz procs, ect) it's impossible to uncap resources. The DC changes will help that. But during periods without any sort of haste buff and unlucky runic corruption procs, it will feel slower. I think it's a change for the better overall, but time will tell.

[spanishninja]

Ofc it does lead to more "unused" GCDs. Thats the entire point of the change.
Currently we are overflowing with ressources. This means that alot of legendaries and talents are not even worth using, since they add even more ressources that we dont need.

The DK ressource system just like any other energy based system doesn´t work well when you are GCD capped and Blizzard finally realized that in case of DKs aswell.

show me evidence that our RP is "overflowing". I'm betting that you see certain points in a fight where you have more resources than you can use and assume that the same is happening throughout the entire fight , when it is clearly not.

[Leviatharan]

show me evidence that our RP is "overflowing". I'm betting that you see certain points in a fight where you have more resources than you can use and assume that the same is happening throughout the entire fight , when it is clearly not.

On the other hand, enough people have made the same complaint about it that the devs have taken notice of the issue.

And in fairness, even if it's just an incidental thing that applies to a vocal minority? We have three different resources, and half of our talents and traits and tier bonuses so far have revolved around resource generation. The fact that someone can reasonably line all of those up and have too much to handle is a design issue.

In my experience, it's not always RP that's overflowing; it's more like a game of Whack-a-Mole.
Let's say I get RP-capped and a couple Sudden Doom procs; I spam Death Coil and now I'm Rune and Wound-capped because I spent five or six GCDs burning it off, got a Runic Corruption proc or two, my 4pT19 added a couple of Wounds and my Infected Claws ghoul has been throwing more on while I wasn't burning any off (especially with all the energy it's been getting from those Death Coils).
I burn off all my Wounds but now I have a huge amount of RP (not quite capped, but getting there) since I get 14-15 RP from every pop with Scourge Strike/Clawing Shadows, and probably another Sudden Doom proc, and the attacks I've been popping them with also proc Pestilent Pustules and either Scourge the Unbeliever or Death's Harbinger - so I still have a ton of Runes.
I burn off all my Runes by furiously spamming Festering Strike because it's my most expensive ability, but now I'm back on Wound and RP cap.
Ad infinitum. Once the fight gets going, it's hard to manage more than two at once.

Sure, you can blame it on me not managing my resources well or just say I should switch off of Infected Claws or whatever. But the point is that if the reward for playing a spec is supposed to scale with its complexity - such as mixing up abilities in such a manner that you never resource cap - and Unholy is performing worse than Frost? Or that there are talents in our kit that simply contribute to bad play? That's a design issue.

[spanishninja]

On the other hand, enough people have made the same complaint about it that the devs have taken notice of the issue.

And in fairness, even if it's just an incidental thing that applies to a vocal minority? We have three different resources, and half of our talents and traits and tier bonuses so far have revolved around resource generation. The fact that someone can reasonably line all of those up and have too much to handle is a design issue.

In my experience, it's not always RP that's overflowing; it's more like a game of Whack-a-Mole.
Let's say I get RP-capped and a couple Sudden Doom procs; I spam Death Coil and now I'm Rune and Wound-capped because I spent five or six GCDs burning it off, got a Runic Corruption proc or two, my 4pT19 added a couple of Wounds and my Infected Claws ghoul has been throwing more on while I wasn't burning any off (especially with all the energy it's been getting from those Death Coils).
I burn off all my Wounds but now I have a huge amount of RP (not quite capped, but getting there) since I get 14-15 RP from every pop with Scourge Strike/Clawing Shadows, and probably another Sudden Doom proc, and the attacks I've been popping them with also proc Pestilent Pustules and either Scourge the Unbeliever or Death's Harbinger - so I still have a ton of Runes.
I burn off all my Runes by furiously spamming Festering Strike because it's my most expensive ability, but now I'm back on Wound and RP cap.
Ad infinitum. Once the fight gets going, it's hard to manage more than two at once.

Sure, you can blame it on me not managing my resources well or just say I should switch off of Infected Claws or whatever. But the point is that if the reward for playing a spec is supposed to scale with its complexity - such as mixing up abilities in such a manner that you never resource cap - and Unholy is performing worse than Frost? Or that there are talents in our kit that simply contribute to bad play? That's a design issue.

well that's the thing. RP isn't the only thing that can cap.at times, but to say it's overflowing would mean that you're rp capped 75% of a fight or more. In my experience it's more like 1/3 of the time at most. i am wary about losing APM just because other people are too obsessed with RP.

[Raiz]

well that's the thing. RP isn't the only thing that can cap.at times, but to say it's overflowing would mean that you're rp capped 75% of a fight or more. In my experience it's more like 1/3 of the time at most. i am wary about losing APM just because other people are too obsessed with RP.

It's not only about RP, it's also about runes. I can play without capping RP, or without capping runes, but not both. That's the main problem of UH dk.

[spanishninja]

It's not only about RP, it's also about runes. I can play without capping RP, or without capping runes, but not both. That's the main problem of UH dk.

it's only a problem if you feel that you always have to avoid capping any of your resources to maximize your dps, which is not the case.

[Protean]

it's only a problem if you feel that you always have to avoid capping any of your resources to maximize your dps, which is not the case.

A capped resource is lost potential damage. Each rune represents an amount of damage, each RP point also represents an amount of damage. There's no way around it.

[Acidbaron]

My concern, a cost increase means more runes spend to get a DC. If your DC won't proc runic corruption after the patch you could end up with a bigger gap where you have no runes.

This might seem insignificant but it can change the speed of our entire spec and be rather bad for us, as it can add unwanted downtime

[Beefkow]

I am actually all for increase RP cost, as long as they compensate as usual. May I also remind yall that we have sudden doom, which makes DC free and count as if 45 RP was spent.

Pros:
-Makes Dark Arbiter more valueable, being able to consume RP in a quick matter
-Sudden Doom becomes more attractive
-Higher chance at runic corruption

Cons:
-Runic corruption is still RNG, potential to become sitting ducks
-No runes and no RP, let's just pray we get RC
-Devalues necrosis

[Nnyco]

cant wait for bad luck with RC and have massive downtime

[spanishninja]

A capped resource is lost potential damage. Each rune represents an amount of damage, each RP point also represents an amount of damage. There's no way around it.

what ultimately determines how much damage is lost is gcds. remember why people were letting rp cap vs other resources...it was because in the same time they could be doing a DC, they would have done mire damage with an SS/CS instead. after patch 7.2.5, you will find yourseld in more situations where not only do you not have RP to DC, but you also don't have runes to cast SS/CS.

[Protean]

what ultimately determines how much damage is lost is gcds. remember why people were letting rp cap vs other resources...it was because in the same time they could be doing a DC, they would have done mire damage with an SS/CS instead. after patch 7.2.5, you will find yourseld in more situations where not only do you not have RP to DC, but you also don't have runes to cast SS/CS.

They only let RP cap because capping runes would have resulted in a greater loss.

But both would be losses compared to having an extra ability that consumes 2 runes and 60 RP (that did proportional damage to the increased cost) which I, tbh, think would be a better solution. But adding things like these always results in a dangerous situation where you either add a cooldown, or run the risk of the new ability being used over the combo of the old ones.

[Deleted]

I have a funny feeling this will be the entirity of the change. No adjusting runic corruption, scourge of worlds, Valkyrie etc.

Upping dc cost by 10 is a much cheaper change, dev cost/resources wise.

Obviously, i hope im wrong about this.

[Deleted]

For those who are new to unholy, the fluidity that unholy offers when you have the resources to spend is great.

However my complaints are down to the lacklustre damage we do on burst, our raw single target damage and our lack of active aoe damage which needs to suit the mobility of a melee spec.

When good RNG, a good raid setup (you're able to avoid the shit jobs in raid), good gear and a good parse don't even touch the top tier classes then as a collective we should be concerned. If and when heroic ToS bosses require a baseline of 800-900k dps ST and mechanics that gives us some down time then we're in trouble. Some of the top Unholy DK's raiding mythic are not hitting this target and if you have, then the stars have aligned. And even when you do, they don't compare to the top tier parses out there.

The changes to death coil are hard to measure in terms of how much of a dps increase it is given the fact it affects how necrosis and dark arbiter work. Our weapon traits and talent choices remain lacklustre and conflicting with this change and yet still no tweaks to our simple baseline damage. Festering strike absolutely needs a damage buff to reflect its rune cost.

On a side note I've recently picked up the golden trait Black claws which has caused complications to my opener already, when I'm at 6 wounds and my transformed abomination eats a wound, I have to fester strike to go 6+, exacerbating the RP issue and is a potential damage loss when we should be DC, CS smashing when our procs and debuffs (Death ones from army) are active.

[spanishninja]

They only let RP cap because capping runes would have resulted in a greater loss.

But both would be losses compared to having an extra ability that consumes 2 runes and 60 RP (that did proportional damage to the increased cost) which I, tbh, think would be a better solution. But adding things like these always results in a dangerous situation where you either add a cooldown, or run the risk of the new ability being used over the combo of the old ones.

but the change we're getting in 7.2.5 isn't some new ability that costs 2runes and 60 RP. just changing DC cost and damage may even end up being a nerf to overall DPS.