Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

One of my biggest issues with the spec is how RNG can fuck over your shadow dance. If you don't proc Energetic Stabbing during the 3 firstshadowstrikes, you won't have energy enough for the 4th. Granted Shadow Wshiper helps this but the RNG is still there

[elfporn]

One of my biggest issues with the spec is how RNG can fuck over your shadow dance. If you don't proc Energetic Stabbing during the 3 firstshadowstrikes, you won't have energy enough for the 4th. Granted Shadow Wshiper helps this but the RNG is still there

This isn't how you do SD. 2 SS, finisher, 2 SS. It is done this way in order to generate energy (both from relentless strikes and another gcd) for that 4th SS.

You should almost never have issues getting a 4th SS. Ever.

Could be possible i misunderstood your issue though. In any case, i havn't had trouble getting a 4th SS since EN, on any dance but an SoD refresh.

[Deleted]

This isn't how you do SD. 2 SS, finisher, 2 SS. It is done this way in order to generate energy (both from relentless strikes and another gcd) for that 4th SS.

You should almost never have issues getting a 4th SS. Ever.

At 100 energy

SS+SS is 80, you're at 20 + 20 from regen so 40. You have 5 CPs

you cast evis, you're now at 55 energy (40 - 35 + 40 + 10) and 0 CP. You cast SS, you're at 15 energy + 10 from regen = 25 energy. You can't cast another SS because you were unlucky

doesn't happen often but feels like crap every time it does. If you have enough haste this will never happen though

[eil]

My guess is that you're burning a bit of time during the dance pooling for evis if you're going for three consecutive SS or that you're losing a bit of time before you land the first SS. I've seen Elf recommend that people macro SS into your Dance button, and you should, it makes a world of difference.

In your accounting of the rotation above it looks like you're missing the final second of dance, as the first SS should occur at "second 0" of the five second duration. Getting that extra bit of time will then put you at 35 energy when dance is about to end and then a single proc of shadow techniques with the new trait should give you the 40 you need.

[Raidenwrath]

The final SS can't happen at "second 0", because the SS will get canceled due to the animation-time.
In theory, you lack 5 energy for a full SS-SS-Evis-SS-SS circle, but in practice it's more. My character needs around 9-10% haste to factor the animation in, so I usually have that much haste now that we have the Shadow's Whisper Trait. Now I can complete the whole cycle without hoping for an ES proc.

Gnomes have it better though, since they get 5 extra energy. You could also get the Karazhan neckpiece.

[eil]

The first SS, which is why I recommended the macro.

[T18Z]

According to SimC use it as your first attack after popping Shadowblades at pull ... and further on CD
If you use your SoD at ~8s on the pulltimer, you can spam SoD after finisher uses to get another critical SS and try to avoid the energy cap ... not entirely possible as far as i tested it

The problem is you can already comfortably use SoD on cooldown for the first 45s of any fight with heroism up. You literally have to spam backstab 3x at 0 CP or get shitty energetic stabbing rng to try and maximize Goremaws use, it's really frustrating.

[ainurr]

From wowhead: ROGUE_SUB_CORE_ABILITY_1
Attack that requires Stealth, and generates 1 Combo Point, and t. Teleports you behind your target when used while out of combat.

[Kwakman]

So after a full night of raiding with the new golden trait I have to say: it's going to take time to adjust.

I keep double spamming Evis after getting too 10 cp and bam I waste energy.
Another thing I might try is to use Goremaw in the SD draught part of the fight. Goremaw, spam BS a bit and actually gain energy from finishers to get charges back.

How are you guys handling the new trait?

[T18Z]

So after a full night of raiding with the new golden trait I have to say: it's going to take time to adjust.

I keep double spamming Evis after getting too 10 cp and bam I waste energy.
Another thing I might try is to use Goremaw in the SD draught part of the fight. Goremaw, spam BS a bit and actually gain energy from finishers to get charges back.

How are you guys handling the new trait?

I'll either use Goremaws after a bad streak of ES procs (not often) or I'll use it when I know I'm going to be able to refresh SoD and use it as a means to spend energy before I evis. Most of the time I'll use Goremaws at 6/7 CP and 50/60 energy > evis > backstab once to lower energy > dance > symbols > SS > evis. At this point you've got one charge left and there's really no way to make full use of it without chain spamming backstab.

It's honestly a stupid trait, we're overflowing with energy already. We needed more burst not more energy for higher dance up-time.

[shoegazing]

I'll either use Goremaws after a bad streak of ES procs (not often) or I'll use it when I know I'm going to be able to refresh SoD and use it as a means to spend energy before I evis. Most of the time I'll use Goremaws at 6/7 CP and 50/60 energy > evis > backstab once to lower energy > dance > symbols > SS > evis. At this point you've got one charge left and there's really no way to make full use of it without chain spamming backstab.

It's honestly a stupid trait, we're overflowing with energy already. We needed more burst not more energy for higher dance up-time.

What you mean when you say "it's a stupid trait" is actually "it's a stupid trait for raiding"

In PvP I am energy starved constantly, it feels extremely slow and stupid to play. I really miss Slice and Dice with Energetic Recovery, it was much more fluid.

[T18Z]

What you mean when you say "it's a stupid trait" is actually "it's a stupid trait for raiding"

In PvP I am energy starved constantly, it feels extremely slow and stupid to play. I really miss Slice and Dice with Energetic Recovery, it was much more fluid.

I'm speaking from a purely PvE perspective, obviously, as evident by the person I'm responding to using PvE context when asking his question.

[Steelwind]

How come Deeper Strat is simming so much higher (like 40k) than Anticipation?

[Critical92]

Would be so much better if the new golden refunds cp spend instead of energy. That way goremaw allows us some nice burst without overcapping energy all this time or spend our energy with backstab.
If 3 stacks are too much reduce it to 2 stacks but let it refund the cp, goremaw's bite are two hits so 2 stacks should be logical.

[Kwakman]

Yeah the Energy overflow is real. Ive been rocking Shoulders + Cloak for a while but he boots dropped and Im wonderingn if I should even try them out. Even more energy. i could swap out for DfA I guess

[WoWnoob]

Yeah the Energy overflow is real. Ive been rocking Shoulders + Cloak for a while but he boots dropped and Im wonderingn if I should even try them out. Even more energy. i could swap out for DfA I guess

What relics do you have? Maybe switch for Gutripper ones and use the boots?

[shoegazing]

they need to just bite the bullet and give us back crippling poison

using NB as a snare in PvP is extremely awkward and problematic... it completely eliminates the kite/restealth potential that virtually defined the entire playstyle of the class in PvP for 12 years

and you cannot tell me that assassination rogues needs to be a unique #classfantasy snowflake is more important than subtlety rogues needs to have a functional spec to play

[elfporn]

they need to just bite the bullet and give us back crippling poison

using NB as a snare in PvP is extremely awkward and problematic... it completely eliminates the kite/restealth potential that virtually defined the entire playstyle of the class in PvP for 12 years

and you cannot tell me that assassination rogues needs to be a unique #classfantasy snowflake is more important than subtlety rogues needs to have a functional spec to play

they've expressed the desire to change sub's snare, it's probably going to come after the rotational changes though.

[shoegazing]

they've expressed the desire to change sub's snare, it's probably going to come after the rotational changes though.

yup, nothing more important than 12345ing at bosses

p.s. thank you for helping me to understand what they said in the blue post, I couldn't have done it without you

[elfporn]

yup, nothing more important than 12345ing at bosses

p.s. thank you for helping me to understand what they said in the blue post, I couldn't have done it without you

You gave the impression you were clueless. It was written clearly in their rogue post, obviously they havn't done anything with it yet.