The Sunreavers betrayed Dalaran... AGAIN [SPOILERS]

[Ielenia]

The Twilight Cultists weren't.

How do you know? Corruption is more often insidious than blatant, you know?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Except you did not refute jack. You failed to bring an actual argument to the table and instead spouted BUT THAH CHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURCH! GUIZ THE CHURCH! ARGHABLARGHA. When someone refuted you you changed to another example and kept jumping back and forth until people like myself gave up and just walked away.

Speaking of walking away, it is now 3:10am where i am and i need to sleep!

Btw people, i still think Aethas is the real dreadlord.

He did bring up a valid point, why blame all the sunreavers when it was one traitor both times, and then turn around and say its unfair to blame someone else, like anduin, for what happened before. No one logical blames an entire organization for one traitor.

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How do you know? Corruption is more often insidious than blatant, you know?

We can follow this up with how do we know that the sunreaver in question was under in control of them self and not a legion tool?

[Derah]

Except you did not refute jack. You failed to bring an actual argument to the table and instead spouted BUT THAH CHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURCH! GUIZ THE CHURCH! ARGHABLARGHA. When someone refuted you you changed to another example and kept jumping back and forth until people like myself gave up and just walked away.

Ohh really? You have either poor memory, or poor reading skills.

You said "Aethas is trying to cover everything up in 7.2".

I countered that here.

You failed to counter that with anything more solid than "But that's how I interpret the character's actions". No more no less. That right there was your whole counter "I disagree".

You also said "Jaina didn't kill anyone, that was a bug" without providing actual evidence. Just the post of a lvl 28 worgen who failed to provide any source for his stuff.

Another point of yours: "He is self-serving, and all he does is for his own sake".

My counter: "You do realize that during the theft of the Divine Bell, the safest course of action for HIM was to prevent the theft, is not like Garrosh can do anything to HIM specifically. If he really was a slimy self-serving asshole, he would have stopped the theft, knowing that nothing bad would happen to him. Instead he chose to risk his life and his position, to save the lives of elves that aren't even his responsibility in the first place."

You failed to counter that and instead changed topics.

Then you say here: "people seem to think that assholes being assholes represents a faction as a whole, no wonder the horde is what it is..."

My counter: "Dude..... you do realize that the entire purge of dalaran was the alliance doing exactly what you just described there, they thought that an asshole being an asshole represents an entire faction, and decided to punish everyone for the crimes of a few individuals".

You failed to provide a counter to that and changed topics.

Then here, you say: "Were those thrown into the violet hold punished? No. You have to remember that of those who went to the hold, the worst they would have gotten is exile"

My counter: "The Silver Covenant was torturing and executing unarmed civilians who were NOT resisting arrest on the sewers.

You once again failed to counter that and changed topics.

I can keep quoting examples of you saying something, I immediately prove you wrong, and you either change topics, or say that my credibility is null therefore what I say is invalid, or try to pass "I disagree with you" as "I am factually right".

Forgive me saying this, but you're really bad at debating.

[Kallisto]

Yeah, one Sunreaver did this... after they were told to behave or they would get thrown out again.
Seems to me the misbehavior is there. If no one let the Sunreavers in again in the first place, there wouldn't have been any betrayal.

This is so senseless. Every time the Alliance tries to get along with the horde, someone always does stupid stuff. Varian didn't dismantle the horde, and he got backstabbed by Edgequeen Sylvanas. We let the Sunreavers in again, and one of them tries to betray the hell out of us again.

Seriously, horde, get your stuff together. Alternatively, we as Alliance could just start behaving the same way... see if you like it.

This again? The only thing Sylvanas did when she blew the horn was to follow the orders of her warchief to stop the horde being wiped out. The alliance already knew what the horn was for and should have logically realised the horde could not hold position. Which is true, the legion pulled both sides into a trap and both alliance/horde even say so during the whole broken isle offensive. (Although Genn stating it seems rather odd since this is his first real interaction with the legion.)

As for calling out traitors, since it is always just the one without others in any situation, it's likely they showed no signs of wanting to betray from within before this time. What is Aethas supposed to do, mind probe everyone 24/7?

[Derah]

We can follow this up with how do we know that the sunreaver in question was under in control of them self and not a legion tool?

This is another good point. After all, the mage campaign is about Archmage Vargoth (Member of the Council of Six no less) apparently being a traitor, when in reality he was just mind-controlled by the legion.

[Deleted]

It tells much of many people how the actions of an individual are used to frame an entire organization/class/race/origin.
Bunch of racist and bigots.

Whoooooooouooooooooo.

I suppose you're as bad as a person irl.

[DrStiglit]

I mean their whole religion could be called terrorist. But I won't get Into that here

We aren't talking about the religion specifically. We are talking about the people and how not all people who claim to be Muslim are not terrorist. Not all christians wait until they are married to have sex. Not all people follow the religion down to the letter.

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Oh man, you went there

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This. Exactly this

He is stereotyping a whole group of people based on the actions of a few. It's a fine example.

[Sixnalia]

The people acting like if the Sunreavers were refused access to Dalaran this would not have happened, have me confused.

I'm pretty sure members of the Kirin Tor and Silver Covenant aren't all capable of resisting the Legion.

Sunreavers were just the best target for the Legion at the time. They were persecuted and suffered at the hands of some of the people they were working alongside in Dalaran. Playing on any individual member's doubts, fears, or anger would have been perfect for bringing them over to the Legion.

If they were not there, the Legion would have simply sought out other individuals still in Dalaran to turn.

------

To add.
The Legion knows how to play people against one another.
They turned the Orcs against the Draenei by posing as ancestors.
They helped restart the faction conflict between Horde and Alliance by planting false information that was given to the Alliance by SI:7's compromised team.

I'm sure they have done it with countless worlds. The Sub dagger's backstory and lore alludes to their efforts of weakening faction's from within through coercion, deceit, and bargains. When it fails, they utilize assassins or elaborate ploys to deal with leadership.

[Makorus]

Wow, I can't wait for the next Sunreavers blunder when the Soulstone containing a Dreadlord that now acts as Dalarans defense fails!

[Sylvaeres]

We aren't talking about the religion specifically. We are talking about the people and how not all people who claim to be Muslim are not terrorist. Not all christians wait until they are married to have sex. Not all people follow the religion down to the letter.

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He is stereotyping a whole group of people based on the actions of a few. It's a fine example.

He didn't stereotype a "whole" group of people. He stated a fact, that there are millions of bad people, and the point was that saying "you probably hate Muslims cause one person did something bad" wasn't accurate.

[Grosbill]

Yeah, one Sunreaver did this... after they were told to behave or they would get thrown out again.
Seems to me the misbehavior is there. If no one let the Sunreavers in again in the first place, there wouldn't have been any betrayal.

This is so senseless. Every time the Alliance tries to get along with the horde, someone always does stupid stuff. Varian didn't dismantle the horde, and he got backstabbed by Edgequeen Sylvanas. We let the Sunreavers in again, and one of them tries to betray the hell out of us again.

Seriously, horde, get your stuff together. Alternatively, we as Alliance could just start behaving the same way... see if you like it.

The SI:7 is the reason Varian (and Vol'jin) died.

But as typical with the Alliance, it's easier to blame the opposing faction than to own up to your mistakes.

Greymane should know this better than anyone else since his daughter is on the Rogue council.

[oathy]

the entire horde Vs alliance doesn't make sense anymore when you think
how many times in recent expansions both sides have been required to join forces.
They keep saying its a different Game to when it launched. I've always been a horde player since Vanilla
I think its time for the Devs to form a breakaway faction, that sides with these enemies (like legion)
allowing players to change totally. And really giving players a true VS feeling

[DrStiglit]

He didn't stereotype a "whole" group of people. He stated a fact, that there are millions of bad people, and the point was that saying "you probably hate Muslims cause one person did something bad" wasn't accurate.

Did you read the OP? Where they stated the entire horde was bad because of one sunreaver?

[Kallisto]

The SI:7 is the reason Varian (and Vol'jin) died.

But as typical with the Alliance, it's easier to blame the opposing faction than to own up to your mistakes.

Greymane should know this better than anyone else since his daughter is on the Rogue council.

Yeah but this is Genn, the man who comfortably sat behind the wall and did nothing (and considering how he felt about Lordaeron likely smiled and felt satisfaction) while Arthas was killing and raising everything he came across. All the while he could have given refuge to those fleeing Arthas Instead. Hell it was one thing Garrosh used to rile up the forsaken.

Genn and rational thought don't go together. The guy is a dick and should have been a pincushion once he turned his back on Sylvanas.

[Sylvaeres]

Did you read the OP? Where they stated the entire horde was bad because of one sunreaver?

Yes, I'm aware the op made a similarly silly statement

[Magnagarde]

First 7.2 mage quest Aethas tells you someone let the Legion into Dalaran. If you ask him to explain, he tells you this.



I mean this was bound to happen. Of course they can't be trusted. Should've killed them all when we had the chance, along with the rest of the Horde scum.

Inb4 "Alliance and Horde need to unite to defeat the Legion"

What's the point of uniting with people who will end up cooperating with the Legion?

We're talking about a group of elves that got afflicted by the fel, juiced on living beings and even a naaru. Hell, even their city was repaired through it. The honorable among the high elves - which have got nothing to do with this bunch - knew the right way to go about this and stayed away.

One would think the Kirin Tor would finally learn to sooner trust a murloc than they'd trust a blood elf.

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Yeah but this is Genn, the man who comfortably sat behind the wall and did nothing (and considering how he felt about Lordaeron likely smiled and felt satisfaction) while Arthas was killing and raising everything he came across. All the while he could have given refuge to those fleeing Arthas Instead. Hell it was one thing Garrosh used to rile up the forsaken.

Genn and rational thought don't go together. The guy is a dick and should have been a pincushion once he turned his back on Sylvanas.

How is he a dick for not wanting to participate in any type of violence created by outside sources? In the end it was brought on his doorstep the moment that wall crumbled. On top of this, why would he give refuge to a plagued population when you have no idea how the plague spreads or where it originates from? You are literally judging him for what he didn't do, when all of the things that he actually did were not malicious in any way. He was neutral in any and all affairs, not meaning harm to anybody. Hell, if we are going to blame characters for not doing anything, then we can then also blame him for not being in the Sons of Lothar, for not fighting Archimonde at Mt. Hyjal, for not repelling Kil'Jaeden from entering Azeroth through the Sunwell or stopping Hakkar in Zul Gurub.

Mind you, the Gilneans also took part in Jaina's expedition to Kalimdor.

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The SI:7 is the reason Varian (and Vol'jin) died.

But as typical with the Alliance, it's easier to blame the opposing faction than to own up to your mistakes.

Yeah, the Stormwind intelligence community is guilty because they didn't bug Kil'Jaeden's command centre while he was having a soul-doughnut. How couldn't they predict the amount of demons pouring in from all those Legion worlds? Espionage on demons with space-faring ships from countless worlds is a trivial activity.

[Friendlyimmolation]

We're talking about a group of elves that got afflicted by the fel, uiced on living beings and even a naaru. Hell, even their city was repaired through it.

One would think the Kirin Tor would finally learn to sooner trust a murloc than they'd trust a blood elf.

It is truly spectacular how people can still be misinformed about stuff that's over 10 years old. The overwhelming majority of blood elves had nothing to do with fel its just the catalsyt rommath used to rebuild Silvermoon. The same thing with the Naaru the majority of blood elves didn't agree with what the blood knights were doing. As for the whole trust thing, it goes both ways, blood elves had almost no reason to Trust the Kirin'tor after Garithos, and later on with Jaina. Considering the Kirin'tor is full of traitors and morons getting drunk on power or doing things they shouldn't Kel'thuzad, Xylem, the archmage from the mage campaign,etc. Maybe they should first focusing on the legion, and then whats driving the Kirin'tor crazy/overconfident.

How is he a dick for not wanting to participate in any type of violence created by outside sources? In the end it was brought on his doorstep the moment that wall crumbled. On top of this, why would he give refuge to a plagued population when you have no idea how the plague spreads or where it originates from?

Mind you, the Gilneans also took part in Jaina's expedition to Kalimdor.

I suggest reading up on Genn. He wanted Lordaeron destroyed because it meant he could take it over (doesn't mean he supported the plague, but he didn't build the wall to escape conflict). I highly doubt Jaina took any Gilnaens with her, as Genn had already withdrawn from the Alliance and the wall was there.

[Magnagarde]

It is truly spectacular how people can still be misinformed about stuff that's over 10 years old. The overwhelming majority of blood elves had nothing to do with fel its just the catalsyt rommath used to rebuild Silvermoon. The same thing with the Naaru the majority of blood elves didn't agree with what the blood knights were doing. .

They didn't agree, but they let it happen and physically supported it. Now their prime naaru-sucker is supposedly a paragon of their people.

Nobody is misinformed, you're just fanboy-whitewashing things from the lore. Fact is that the most prominent figures of their society have very low standards to go about with.

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I highly doubt Jaina took any Gilnaens with her, as Genn had already withdrawn from the Alliance and the wall was there.

A Gilnean brigade accompanied all the other kingdom-affiliated brigades that went to Kalimdor. Logic implies they probably came from outside the wall though.

[DrStiglit]

Yes, I'm aware the op made a similarly silly statement

My original statement was directed at the OP to poke at how ridiculous it was....

[Ielenia]

We can follow this up with how do we know that the sunreaver in question was under in control of them self and not a legion tool?

Care to point out where did I ever claim the Sunreaver in the third incident was not mind-controlled? Because I do recall writing this:

Now I can't talk about this latest incident, since I don't play a mage to have access to the quest the OP talks about, but I'm pretty sure the previous two Sunreaver offenders weren't being mind-controlled by some supernatural corrupting force.