United States of America - World Police or World Saviour

[Zecora]

Then you're a minority. A very small minority. You can join Elba.

Doesn't look like an all that small minority from where I am standing. So the point stands, stop claiming a consensus that doesn't exist.

[Themius]

Go ahead, stop meddling in the rest of the world. The world won't mind. Use those funds to provide some proper healthcare and a decent social safety net for your citizens. Y'know, things that pretty much every western country but the US has.

Ah yes... the rest of the world can also better afford those things because they have our country there to protect them if the shit hits the fan so they don't have to invest as much.

I do not like Trump, I think Trump is a fucking idiot, but he does bring up a great point where we have certain agreements concerning military spending and the other nations are doing fuck all.

[Elba]

Then you're a minority. A very small minority. You can join Elba.

This is a field slave vs house slave situation here.

[Zecora]

In addition to what Slant said, the US "getting the fuck out of Europe" wouldn't change anything really. It would just alter our approach. More long range weapon/bombers/aircraft. Island building. Building bases in what friendly countries their are.

Many countries have told us to hit the bricks over the decades. It's never stopped us from doing whatever it is that we wanted. We always manage to find an alternative.

And you should also consider this: being our host gives you a degree of veto power over us you would not have. Consider Turkey. Back in 2003, Turkey didn't let the US use its territory as a staging ground for the invasion of Iraq as requested by us. The US invaded through the south and through air. Turkey only allowed the US to later use its territory as a logistics stop-over point after extracting certain understanding and deals.

The US getting the fuck out of Europe (and preferably the rest of the world) would change one important thing: You wouldn't be here. That's improvement.

And good on Turkey.

[Themius]

America is only on top because they pushed everyone else down. Naturally that breeds resentment, especially when they start to throw their weight around.

We are number one, not because we pushed everyone down. We are number one because our culture has a great focus firstly on business and economy, which is why we became the wealthiest nation in the world. When you have a nation who has a culture of business... that tends to make you wealthy.

[Ghostpanther]

Go ahead, stop meddling in the rest of the world. The world won't mind. Use those funds to provide some proper healthcare and a decent social safety net for your citizens. Y'know, things that pretty much every western country but the US has.

Some good points. it certainly would give us more money for our social needs. But the issue is the first time a country is invaded by a conquest mined entity, they would cry for help and we have a history of not ignoring those.

[Shadowferal]

A few months ago, US tanks arrive in Germany to help Nato defences

The largest shipment of US brigades since the fall of the Soviet Union is arriving in northern Germany.
The first of the 87 tanks and 144 military vehicles were being unloaded in the port of Bremerhaven on Friday.
The equipment and 3,500 US troops are to be deployed along Nato's eastern frontier. The deployment aims to allay worries of potential Russian aggression in eastern Europe.
The arrival of the equipment and troops marks the start of a new phase of the US's Operation Atlantic Resolve, which foresees the continuous presence of an American armoured brigade combat team in Europe on a nine-month rotational basis.
Other Nato members are also increasing their presence in eastern Europe, with Britain sending fighter jets to the Black Sea area, while a battalion of troops, tanks and light armour will deploy to Estonia in the spring, backed by French and Danish troops. Germany also plans to send troops and tanks to Lithuania.
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A month after that, US Army Helicopters Arrive in Germany

Dozens of US Chinook, Apache, and Black Hawk helicopters have been unloaded in the German port city of Bremerhaven.
“Today, we are downloading a portion of the combat aviation brigade and it will be moved to Germany and Eastern Europe and will be scattered between Latvia and Romania, while a big chunk of it will be stationed in Germany,” Major General Duane Gamble, the Commander of the 21st Theater Sustainment Command, which is lead organization for the US Army Europe’s logistic support and other sustainment activities, told journalists.
The general added that the mission of the air grouping “is to train with our NATO allies… and to strengthen our alliance together.” He also said that “one of the key training objectives here is to continue to refine our agility in different [ways].”
“For 70 years, the US has been one of the cornerstones of NATO and there is no better way to train with our NATO partners than on the continent of Europe,” he stressed, adding that the US troops will be deployed to four NATO countries: Belgium, Germany, Latvia, and Romania.
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Interesting...

[Slant]

Cause no trouble? They cause trouble all over the globe, create terrorism and we get targeted by said terrorists because we are their servants.

Every single Islamic terrorist attack in Europe is the direct fault of America. Al-Qaeda and Isis are merely hornets. The yanks threw the nest through our window.

They cause trouble globally, but they do not cause trouble here. And for all the valid criticism that I brought into this thread, I will repeat once more, you do not toss out family even when it gets rough. Rather than throwing them out and abandoning them, we should try to make them understand why we're concerned, why they're causing troubles and what avoiding meddling everywhere would gain them.

I agree that we're a terrorist target because of the US (gee thanks btw), but it's not because we're servants. It's because, geographically, we're the more opportune targets. The US has tightened up security and Europe is still more relaxed. But for all the shit you can say about the US, implying that they intentionally "threw the hornets nest into Europe" is just a silly notion.

[Spectral]

All I have to say is: that's freakin nuts. You would, as a policymaker, let your country get so surrounded by a hostile, aggressive power?

Insane. Absolutely insane.

Obviously the positions that Kangodo and Elba hold on the matter is mostly driven by a simmering hatred for the United States moreso than any reasoned approach to policy. Combine that with the standard radical egalitarian aversion to concentric loyalties and you get a ridiculous set of conclusions about how a nation should behave.

[Elba]

Ah yes... the rest of the world can also better afford those things because they have our country there to protect them if the shit hits the fan so they don't have to invest as much.

Shit wouldn't hit the fan if you wouldn't keep throwing shit. You create conflicts through your rampant imperialism. The rest of the world suffers because of it.

[Themius]

The US getting the fuck out of Europe (and preferably the rest of the world) would change one important thing: You wouldn't be here. That's improvement.

And good on Turkey.

You may not be there either as our presence is what leads to peace.

[Zecora]

We are a bad influence?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :gasp: HAHAHAHAHAHHA.

No... we are a great influence on the world and a great deterrent to war. We live in times of relative peace thanks to the United States, and that is taken for granted. There isn't war in Asia, we are likely a deterrant to war between Pakistan and India. We are a wealthy nation, with some of the worlds smartest people as we have the best colleges in the world, and attract the best to our country from the world. We have made great advacenments, and have become the strongest country militarily and the most influential country via our culture.

Be sure to pull that mirror a bit closer as you jerk off to your fantasy buddy.

American people are terribly warm and friendly most of the time, and usually it's not real it's just fake courtesy, but that's better I would say than some of the cold distant attitudes you can find in Europe. We are a diverse nation; however, our minorities are very very clearly represented from television, to government, and our issues are all out there for all to see BECAUSE people have a voice. We have true freedom of speech, and not this weird shit where you can be fined for calling someone a slur, or insulting their looks.

Most (with some very nice and welcome exceptions) americans I've known have been self-conceited assholes. You seem to work very hard to add to that list.

You may not be there either as our presence is what leads to peace.

Isn't there something called a "jesus complex" where you think you are the saviour? I mostly thought that applied to people and not nations...

[Spectral]

America is only on top because they pushed everyone else down. Naturally that breeds resentment, especially when they start to throw their weight around.

This is pretty obviously false. To the extent that the United States went from merely a power to the most important power since the British Empire as a result of other nations being destroyed or failing, it was those nations doing it to themselves. Woodrow Wilson didn't advocate for Europe to tear itself apart and break pretty much everything over the space of a couple decades - Europeans did that. The world power least responsible for the world wars was the United States.

[Skroe]

Ah yes... the rest of the world can also better afford those things because they have our country there to protect them if the shit hits the fan so they don't have to invest as much.

I do not like Trump, I think Trump is a fucking idiot, but he does bring up a great point where we have certain agreements concerning military spending and the other nations are doing fuck all.

This gets it wrong. The US has worked very hard to make sure many country's can basically do "fuck all". The more other country's can do, the more other country's can do without our ability to implicitly or explicitly veto it. The US want's a country like Germany to recapitalize its Army and have more than a few hundred tanks. What it absolutely DOESN'T want is for, say, Europe to drop the $25 billion a year we spend on nuclear weapons on it's own program. We're talking getting NATO back into more of a fighting shape. We're absolutely not talking anything close to being an equal. That wouldn't even be appropriate in Europe.

As I've said on litterally dozens of occasions by this point, the "2% of GDP" argument is the so dumb it's hard to find new ways of expressing how dumb.

[Zecora]

Some good points. it certainly would give us more money for our social needs. But the issue is the first time a country is invaded by a conquest mined entity, they would cry for help and we have a history of not ignoring those.

Yes, I am sure all those invasions have been out of the kind goodness of your heart. That's okay, you can rest now, take some care of yourself. There, there, shh, shh...

[Skroe]

The US getting the fuck out of Europe (and preferably the rest of the world) would change one important thing: You wouldn't be here. That's improvement.

And good on Turkey.

No. We wouldn't have a few tens of thousands of our citizens on bases that you own. We would be absolutely everywhere that mattered. In your media, on your internet, in your language, in space, above around. You'll never be rid of us.

[Damajin]

Should be neither, but that'd mean letting go of its' Manifest Destiny urge, its' twin unsinkable aircraft carriers (Japan and England), and scrapping the entire NATO/CFR globalist schtick.

Going to be hard pressed for that, at least in the immediate future.

[Skroe]

Obviously the positions that Kangodo and Elba hold on the matter is mostly driven by a simmering hatred for the United States moreso than any reasoned approach to policy. Combine that with the standard radical egalitarian aversion to concentric loyalties and you get a ridiculous set of conclusions about how a nation should behave.

Oh of course. And it's still comically fucking insane.

[Ghostpanther]

Wait what? It's the US military that caused IS.
It's that military that armed the rebels causing the refugee crisis.

We have the EU to stop us from being overran by foreign powers.
It's a block that stops outsiders and other arrangements stop our neighbours from taking over.


I would not kill innocent people on infringe on their democratic rights.
But basic human rights has never been an American concern, in that aspect they are no better than the worst kind of people this world has ever seen.

The first time your block crumbled under the onslaught of a world super power, you and I both know who's help you would be calling for and welcome.

Our Constitution was written on the principles of human rights. It is what led us to free the slaves, give women the voting rights and created the Civil Rights law. But those rights are more than just skin deep. Of course the US had made mistakes. There are no perfect countries in the world. Even the Dutch were not perfect when they led the slave trade. :P

[Slant]

Obviously the positions that Kangodo and Elba hold on the matter is mostly driven by a simmering hatred for the United States moreso than any reasoned approach to policy. Combine that with the standard radical egalitarian aversion to concentric loyalties and you get a ridiculous set of conclusions about how a nation should behave.

I suggest you differentiate a little there. Kangodo hasn't made the impression of hatred towards the US to me, yet. Criticism of US politics is absolutely warranted these days. I'm not even talking about Trump here, I'm talking everything post 9/11. Even Skroe's position of "the inevitable war between the US and China" is troubling, to be honest. I don't see that there needs to be such a war. Skroe needs to understand that China, unlike Russia, just wants to be left the fuck alone. Stay outside China's sphere of influence and they'll gladly ignore you politically and militarily. The US will have to give up Taiwan eventually, that would instantly solve all problems. As for Taiwan, they'll just need to wait until China reforms itself into the first democratic, liberal communist nation of the planet. But that takes time, as China is thinking in larger time scales than the US can possibly fathom. Europe considers the US a baby nation. China considers Europe a baby project and European culture lagging behind their 4000 years of being one nation. What do you think they consider the US and their meddling with Taiwan?

It's these cultural differences that Trump got educated about, by the way. There is no need for war, but we have to acknowledge that China has been around the block longer than anyone else.