Want to truly make America great?

[BannedForViews]

You know, it's not terribly difficult to understand why someone born here gets to stay. It's a little more difficult to understand why that guy can grow up to be someone who does nothing but smoke meth and steal copper wire from construction sites, but the kid who came here illegally at 6 months old and would be on his way to med school but for his immigration status is the one that has to go.

That's not hard to understand at all. The kid who would be going to med school? Yea, they're all "that kid" aren't they.

As long as laws mean something, then it makes sense why someone who comes her ILLEGALLY doesn't deserve to stay. As long as citizenship is given, not earned, it makes sense why worthless people who leech off society, but who are nevertheless citizens, get to stay.

You are arguing against something that isn't American, but that is human. If you want to change the way all humans think, and have been genetically conditioned to think for hundreds of thousands of years, good luck. But don't pretend like it's not understandable.

[Sneezeburger]

That's not hard to understand at all. The kid who would be going to med school? Yea, they're all "that kid" aren't they.

As long as laws mean something, then it makes sense why someone who comes her ILLEGALLY doesn't deserve to stay. As long as citizenship is given, not earned, it makes sense why worthless people who leech off society, but who are nevertheless citizens, get to stay.

You are arguing against something that isn't American, but that is human. If you want to change the way all humans think, and have been genetically conditioned to think for hundreds of thousands of years, good luck. But don't pretend like it's not understandable.

If you're talking about adults, sure. But people who came here when they were six weeks old get shipped off to another country they've never been to at 16 while the guy who's been in and out of prison his whole life gets to sit around and collect welfare benefits? That's sensible policy?

[Dangg]

Do you guys know despite having a 'libtard' reputation I've rarely witnessed people argue for keeping ILLEGAL immigrants in Europe?

Interesting cultural difference.

"Should people who break the law be allowed to continue breaking the law without any consequences?"

That's we are discussing here.

It's just a not much of a heated topic similar to creationism or abortion.

[BannedForViews]

If you're talking about adults, sure. But people who came here when they were six weeks old get shipped off to another country they've never been to at 16 while the guy who's been in and out of prison his whole life gets to sit around and collect welfare benefits? That's sensible policy?

You can't talk about it like there are alternatives, when there aren't. We aren't all "citizens of the world". You can't just send criminals to Australia. Countries have to deal with their own undesirables (although it'd be nice if everyone just sent them all to a Papua New Guinea, for example).

The real problem is illegals need to be stopped and removed quickly so you don't have 16 year olds getting shipped off, but people seem to have a problem with anyone who is illegal being told to leave.

There are not 7 billion potential Americans in this world. Nobody has a right to be here, and as a person whose grand parents legally immigrated, i take great offense to those who think they are too good to wait in a line and do things properly. You won't be okay if someone cut in front of you at the grocery line, or a ticket booth, or if someone cheated and took your place at the college you went to, or any other number of places, so why are we so lax about people cutting into the countries, especially when a large number of them are take advantage of our safety nets.

You want fewer meth heads? fewer leeches? Remove all the safety nets and the problem will sort itself out. At least then, those that come here will do so because they want to contribute. We can move forward from there.

[Video Games]

I mean, I generally think immigration is a net positive. I just don't want to rule out the possibility of completely reasonable arguments in favor of those things based on current or future circumstances.

Fair enough. I think people don't understand what modest proposals are. Some may seem outrageous, but the whole point to them is a solution and people get a little emotional about them. I don't agree with you that we should reform society, but i know why you came to these conclusions.

[BannedForViews]

I mean, I generally think immigration is a net positive. I just don't want to rule out the possibility of completely reasonable arguments in favor of those things based on current or future circumstances.

immigration =/= illegal immigration, and it's insulting to those that do so legally to conflate the two.

[Sneezeburger]

but people seem to have a problem with anyone who is illegal being told to leave.

Well, you're not wrong there. I'm still uncertain what "the left's" policy is with regards to illegal immigrants. Sometimes it seems like they favor a policy where if you get over the border, you're here to stay, which obviously is not a feasible immigration policy. Unfortunately many of them seem unwilling to acknowledge that there are difficult choices to be made, and anyone who is willing to make those choices is labeled a racist or a xenophobe.

That having been said, I absolutely can talk about it like there are alternatives. There are alternatives, namely policies like the DREAM act. While I don't hate people who knowingly commit immigration violations as adults, I also don't feel a great deal of sympathy for them when they're told to leave. They know they're not supposed to be here, but they made that choice and I'm not going to cry for them if they have to face the consequences.

But There is a huge middle ground between "throw 'em all out" and "let 'em all in," and I'm not going to advocate deporting a teenager who has called the United States home from the time he was able to walk. They are completely blameless and I'm not going to punish them for the bad decisions of their parents, particularly when there are millions of Americans who contribute fuck all and suffer zero consequences for it. At least there's a chance these kids might make something of themselves.

[bagelmanman]

The ones arguing for allowing illegal immigration to continue are the same ones that haven't had their social security # / identity stolen. They are also the ones most likely living off welfare/parents at home and have no idea how taxes work or what a real job entails.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Honestly what makes us great is our ability to troll and then sit back and watch people cat fight over it endlessly on the internet.

[Allerius]

I think the person who earlier said you'd have to create an entirely new society to get it through basically came the closest to giving a correct answer. Simply put, with the way society is right now and the views and expectations of people being what they are, any attempt to implement such a policy would likely be catastrophic and inspire a lot of fear and unrest that any given person would be next. It would be virtually impossible to implement in such a way that it's actually a net positive for the society as a result. It's therefore a limitation imposed more as a matter of being a hostage to circumstances, rather than having any intrinsic value (and there are other ways to rationally advocate for the current model).

However, given that is the case, it strikes me as very strange that people are so bitter towards people desperate to get into the country. They figuratively spit on them and talk about how they're not entitled to be here with a certain contempt, but in reality they're no more deserving of their residence here than the people they look down their nose at. It's just a serendipitous circumstance for them, not something they earned or worked for, and as such I think they should be less judgmental of others. This doesn't stop them from advocating for tighter restrictions on immigration or better enforcement of existing laws if there is a practical purpose to be achieved by such, but it does make it rather hypocritical to sneer at them and talk about them like subhuman filth.

Citizenship is given to those born in a country for pretty obvious reasons. Kids won't have citizenship anywhere else so they can't be deported as other countries won't accept them so you're stuck with them. Citizenship is granted because people want their kids to have it and it's part of living in a democratic society. Immigration is modeled on ideas you mention where useful people are brought in and those considered useless kept out. In this sense legal immigration exists to benefit the host country and not because outsiders have some sort of right to become citizens. Illegal immigration circumvents the whole purpose for obvious reasons.

If you want society to filter based on worth then remove all the social safety nets and let natural selection run its course.

[Video Games]

Please be more offended on behalf of other people over a post you don't understand.



I mean, what I've been using to question people isn't really my position. It's just an alternative that can be employed, which means the current system is unnecessary and therefore needs to be defended as every other unnecessary thing does. I think societal reform is needed, but not to start booting people out of the country for not being up to snuff. At the moment, I'm more concerned with how and why people form the opinions they do and I want to cultivate a more pragmatic and empirical basis for decision making.

Well I can't speak for everbody, but mine are bases on the things that people have done for/to me. Nothing overly complicated. I've also wanted to move to japan and live there so I'd be a hypocrite if i was against immigration.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't think you'll ever get good data as long as people have emotions. I know not everybody appeals to them, but look at this forum and you'll see a lot of people do.

[fruitypebble]

Citizenship is given to those born in a country for pretty obvious reasons. Kids won't have citizenship anywhere else so they can't be deported as other countries won't accept them so you're stuck with them. Citizenship is granted because people want their kids to have it and it's part of living in a democratic society. Immigration is modeled on ideas you mention where useful people are brought in and those considered useless kept out. In this sense legal immigration exists to benefit the host country and not because outsiders have some sort of right to become citizens. Illegal immigration circumvents the whole purpose for obvious reasons.

If you want society to filter based on worth then remove all the social safety nets and let natural selection run its course.

Sadly, you're making the exact same mistake that every other person responding to his posts is making.

Nobody needs to explain the purpose of the existing system. He's simply offering an alternative as a means of bringing to light the logical errors frequently made in defending the existing system. Everyone's responding to him, yourself included, as though the alternate reality he's describing is actually what he's advocating for or that the existing system in place has no merit.

Those people are entirely missing the point.

[NED funded]

I'm not advocating for anything. I'm asking for justification of the current system, which everyone is bending over backwards to avoid providing.

I'll ask you to answer this question since now I'm getting tired of asking it. And so far you have evaded it.

How is not taking rights (one as a essential as citizenship) from an individual and trasfer it to another individual based on nothing but some arbitrary measure of goodness defined by an elite group not extractive?

[Killadrix]

The idea isn't limited to raids and phrasing it like that was a joke. It works like this in business too, where you don't get complete job security just because you were found in the building one day. If they feel they can get better value out of replacing you, you're gone. So again, stop flailing and answer the question: Why should you be entitled to remain here and benefit from being here by virtue of your birth, even if we could give your "spot" in the country to a more valuable immigrant?

Because that's how the law works. If you want to change the law, there are ways to do it.

[SLSAMG]

Ignorance is bliss.

The American dream died not long after the dot-com boom.

[Allerius]

Sadly, you're making the exact same mistake that every other person responding to his posts is making.

Nobody needs to explain the purpose of the existing system. He's simply offering an alternative as a means of bringing to light the logical errors frequently made in defending the existing system. Everyone's responding to him, yourself included, as though the alternate reality he's describing is actually what he's advocating for or that the existing system in place has no merit.

Those people are entirely missing the point.

The point being?

[fruitypebble]

No kidding, but that only tells us what is the case, not why it should be the case.

This concept is difficult for some to wrap their heads around. I run into the exact same problem when I try to have political debates with my dad. I ask him a hypothetical question that threatens the existing status quo, and he'll responds with something trite like "because you can't" or "because it's against the law", despite the fact we're talking in hypotheticals. When I ask him why you can't or why it's against the law, to justify the status quo, I get "because it is" or "because that's just how it works". It can be deeply infuriating when you're trying to have this conversation with a family member lol.

The point being?

Nixx has already rather eloquently kicked that horse to China by now. I'll refer you to his posts.

[NED funded]

I've answered that multiple times already. I'm not answering it again.

- - - Updated - - -



No kidding, but that only tells us what is the case, not why it should be the case.

No you've said something about rights not existing physically, so it did not matter.

[Deleted]

it strikes me as very strange that people are so bitter towards people desperate to get into the country. They figuratively spit on them and talk about how they're not entitled to be here with a certain contempt, but in reality they're no more deserving of their residence here than the people they look down their nose at.

If I'm understanding the exercise, you're trying to either understand how these opinions come to be, or to make others question the foundation of their world view.
To the later, I stopped helping yesterday. To the former, my two cents:

Looking back a few decades, I think the discussions on immigration were contained as seasonal outbursts during election cycles.
I'm sure that hateful rhetoric existed as well before. But the current disdain, I think, is set against the backdrop of the refugee crisis in Europe, which has infected the debate across the west. That event had the political debate turn into "should", instead of past "in our interest". Both in the legal aspect (treaties), and the moral one (it is a humanitarian crisis). So when the humanitarian response was "we must help", some others employed your exercise: well, should we?, what's there to compel us?, why are they entitled?
To which other responded "dude, there's a child dead on the beach, and you're questioning the foundations of justice and the state, fuck off".

Maybe I'm just too sold on pendulums.

[Allerius]

Nixx has already rather eloquently kicked that horse to China by now. I'll refer you to his posts.

So no point, got it.