WTF is wrong with MW

[avx81]

I would love a perm pet as someone else mentioned. Heck I would even love to have xuen back again on my MW. Our next set is named after him after all.. I don't expect anymore changes. This all seems lazy. Months of feedback have been given and after all this the best blizzard can muster up is what could be a nerf to our overall output due to no more EF spam on aoe heavy fights and a slight buff to vivafy. For reference vivafy on the ptr is healing for about 20k more per target hit.

EF on a cd is going to be EXTREMELY punishing now if you cancel it early as well. We have all made that mistake where you click an ability then fat finger something else and it gets cancelled early. If they do something to counter this and if they increase the duration of the hot to say 10s then the 12s cd might not be so bad and welcome actually.

There needs to be more changes because what Blizzard has done so far does nothing to get MW a mythic raid spot. I learned my lesson. I have been playing my monk since they came out. I'm to invested in my monk at this point to quit it and put up with grinding another healer out. Next expansion I'm just gonna roll resto druid. They have always been a safe bet every expansion.

Oh and I wanted to point out I'm so happy that we have Lore who has no clue how to play his MW saying on his twitch stream "I don't spam EF like an idiot" .. his exact words and he doesnt understand why other mistweavers have mana issues because he doesn't. Also he does not understand why MW say that they have no raid utility when raiders from top end guild have pointed out that MW have none which is why they don't bring them over a shaman/druid/paladin right on the WoW forums. Literally threads with hundreds of up votes I guess completely ignored. You know that's the guy that claims he talks to the devs all the time about concerns on the forums. Specifically said it's his job to collate information for the devs to read and toss out the rest of the garbage. The guy only does low m+ keys that he gets carried through because I see him dead half the time. Guy has not even done normal NH on his monk. It's not that MW's enjoy spamming it. It's our only reliable aoe heal on aoe heavy fights. But we have someone like this acting as the middle man between players and the devs which to me is an issue. I don't feel bad pointing him out because he is the middle man who basically called all the top ranking MWs "idiots" on his twitch stream while he was laying dead half the time in low keys. I guess anyone that is able to parse on warcraftlogs in NH doesn't know what they are doing even though he has not even touched lfr NH and his only MW healing experience is getting carried through keys.

*update
think I found a parse of him recently getting carried through heroic nh parsing gray on almost every fight but one. but you know all other mw that know their class are "idiots"

[Nyel]

Next expansion I'm just gonna roll resto druid. They have always been a safe bet every expansion.

And even when they had a weak phase Blizzard buffed them pretty quickly to be good / great again. Regarding healers there are only two classes that get this treatment: Druids and Paladins. Right now it's just ridiculous how dominant RDruids are in Mythic NH.

[Rife]

I don't know of another MW that has ever even TRIED to stack Crit/Mastery and ST heal. Not one. Ever. Not at all. Not even once.

Frankly it's surprising. Because seriously, we're phenomenal. Our kit is excellent for ST and Blizzard continues to give us better tools for it (Seriously, a Cloud every time we Effuse? 15s Sheilun's Gift. That's a 1.5million heal non-crit EVERY 15 seconds. For free).

And that argumentum ad populum? Bring that to Blizzard, I'm sure they'll change things.

But hey, keep doing what doesn't work for you, and complaining, and I'll keep doing what does work for me.

This level of self-assured ignorance is why MW is currently the trash tier spec that it is.

People with absolutely no experience with other healers play MW without realizing how strong other healers are and think MW must be good because they can clear a M+6 or something equally casual-capable. You sound like Lore tbh.

A. Not only is that a lot of work for something that was a mere suggestion for people to try (Seriously, how has this been blown this far out of proportion?)
B. I've never posted my character information, in any form, to MMO-C and don't plan on starting now. That very quickly turns into people making claims such as "Well I'm X/10M and you're only Y/10M, so your argument is invalid" et al. rather than actually arguing the point. I also don't trust MMO-C trolls to not harass me ingame (Because seriously, some MMO-C posters are pretty awful), so I won't be doing that, thank you.

Like I've mentioned, I don't care if people don't believe me. The intent was to offer an alternative to people who are otherwise only complaining about the current play style. "Hey guys, try this other playstyle. In my personal use, I've found it to be comparable to Paladin healing while be more mana efficient. I can do exactly what a paladin does."

Clearly you have never played a Paladin.

Crit/Mastery isn't your own discovery or something m8. It has been the optimal M+ gearset since launch.

You're honestly doing harm than good spouting this nonsense. Please stop.

[xGLxAnubis]

This level of self-assured ignorance is why MW is currently the trash tier spec that it is.

People with absolutely no experience with other healers play MW without realizing how strong other healers are and think MW must be good because they can clear a M+6 or something equally casual-capable. You sound like Lore tbh.



Clearly you have never played a Paladin.

Crit/Mastery isn't your own discovery or something m8. It has been the optimal M+ gearset since launch.

You're honestly doing harm than good spouting this nonsense. Please stop.

How is MY self assuredness somehow impacting Blizzards design choices? I don't work for Blizzard. That makes no sense. Or are you under the impression they use MMO-C forums to gauge how viable their design is? I've got bad news for you if so, friend.

I've raided Shaman, Paladin, and Resto Druid heals since vanilla. Paladin, Shaman, Monk this xpac. I've done quite a bit more than M+6 on all of them. Killing mythic raid bosses probably doesn't count in this context though.

And the nonsense I'm spouting is "Hey this works for me, why don't you try it too and see if it works for you?", so I can see how that's harmful. Relating my personal experiences and all.

[Avada Kedavra]

How is MY self assuredness somehow impacting Blizzards design choices? I don't work for Blizzard. That makes no sense. Or are you under the impression they use MMO-C forums to gauge how viable their design is? I've got bad news for you if so, friend.

I've raided Shaman, Paladin, and Resto Druid heals since vanilla. Paladin, Shaman, Monk this xpac. I've done quite a bit more than M+6 on all of them. Killing mythic raid bosses probably doesn't count in this context though.

And the nonsense I'm spouting is "Hey this works for me, why don't you try it too and see if it works for you?", so I can see how that's harmful. Relating my personal experiences and all.

The reason you are getting kickback is because what you are suggesting is fundamentally wrong. You are playing monk sub-optimally. You are gearing sub-optimally. You are advising a rotation and play style that is sub-optimal. So when you have someone posting on a public forum concentrated on the MW community, spouting a gimped sub-optimal way of healing, you are naturally going to get push back and people are rightly going to ask you to post something to back up your claim.

Mythic raiding is a Min-Max game. You want to MAX out everything you can, push the numbers as high as you can. When you say "i ended a fight with 50% mana" then you are obviously doing it wrong and playing sub-optimally which is detrimental to a mythic raiding guild/environment. People arent just being mean, if there is a viable way of doing something different then lets see it but mere words simply will not do.

Intentionally playing a sub-par playstyle when you know they are supposed to be played differently in a mythic environment is major cause for concern and from a raid leading perspective, would give me cause to re-evaluate their position on the team. If your class is capable of 700k hps but you choose to only do 300k-400k HPS because of a sub-optimal play style then 100% you no longer have a spot. I say this because the people that come to this forum will read what you are saying and think it has merit, where it will end up hurting them if they follow that advice.

[Madelein]

A. Not only is that a lot of work for something that was a mere suggestion for people to try (Seriously, how has this been blown this far out of proportion?)
B. I've never posted my character information, in any form, to MMO-C and don't plan on starting now. That very quickly turns into people making claims such as "Well I'm X/10M and you're only Y/10M, so your argument is invalid" et al. rather than actually arguing the point. I also don't trust MMO-C trolls to not harass me ingame (Because seriously, some MMO-C posters are pretty awful), so I won't be doing that, thank you.

Like I've mentioned, I don't care if people don't believe me. The intent was to offer an alternative to people who are otherwise only complaining about the current play style. "Hey guys, try this other playstyle. In my personal use, I've found it to be comparable to Paladin healing while be more mana efficient. I can do exactly what a paladin does."

No one is asking you to provide your character information.

We just want to see the logs. You can even take screen shot, and black out the names of your guild and toons on the healing meters, just leave the colours in place so we can see. You can also screen shot your healing spells in the same manner and post that as an image, so we can see what spells you are using.

As a MW heading into mythic raiding - we are a pretty laid back guild and aren't pushing progression this tier, I am now tempted to just go back to healing on druid or my shaman which was my previous main.

For a variety of reasons.. Our lack of utility, our heals simply not stacking up to others - I get destroyed by the resto druid in raids, I oom if I try to push the heals to try to keep up with the druid, and our heals are just not doing enough to be competitive.

So please, show the screen shots of the pages showing how you are keeping up with a H Pally in ST healing, blank out the names. But show us something. Because right now, what you are claiming seems completely unbelievable. If you have something to share, than share it, show us so we can see and possibly try it. Our ST heals have improved somewhat, but I fail to see how it can be on par with a H Pally, even with the gear from NH M. Tell us what gear you are using, trinkets, legendaries, talent choices. But at the very least, screen shot the pages of your parses, blank out the names so we cannot identify you or your guild if that is what concerns you, and just allow us to see how this is possible.

[Deleted]

As someone who only just returned to the game (last time I played was literally as Trials of Valor was released) I'm a bit surprised that Mistweavers are doing so... supposedly bad? I can't say I'm doing too horrible, but I have to admit that trying Nighthold Heroic now and having caught up on ilvl, I feel like I'm running out of mana so much faster than other healers while trying to stay up on the charts.

[Nyel]

As someone who only just returned to the game (last time I played was literally as Trials of Valor was released) I'm a bit surprised that Mistweavers are doing so... supposedly bad? I can't say I'm doing too horrible, but I have to admit that trying Nighthold Heroic now and having caught up on ilvl, I feel like I'm running out of mana so much faster than other healers while trying to stay up on the charts.

That's exactly the issue since... Legion Beta?


- - - Updated - - -

@xGLxAnubis

I tried some "new" kind of playstyle in the last days because we need to adapt our gameplay due to the EF changes. I always liked our Mastery and I really like our new traits so I switched to the gameplay mentioned by xGLxAnubis in this thread. I know many in this thread have been very critical about that playstyle but in reality it works much better than you might think.

What does that mean?

Adapted stats: Mastery > Haste / Crit > Versatility

Gameplay: Effuse spam, using Vivify only with UT, ReM on CD, TFT for double ReM, Sheilun's Gift as a (huge) ST heal but only when additional raid healing is needed - use it frequently with 4-5 stacks so that the ST heal isn't wasted or gather clouds and use it during boss phases that require raid wide healing.

I haven't used EnM once, it wasn't necessary. Same with EF, I barely used it because the "adapted" playstyle could provide all the healing that was needed.

I played with Mana Tea and Paradox (trinket) and the Mana issues were non existent. It was just an enticing and new expierence and it's so much more fun than EF spam.

I only had the chance to try this in Normal and HC Nighthold but it worked. It really did. By stacking Mastery Gust of Mist becomes your Nr. 1 healing source (even before ReM).

I suggest every MW should at least try before judging (like we did when Anubis came up with his experience).

Recount for bosses looks mostly like this:

1. Gust of Mist ~ 18-20%
2. Renewing Mist ~ 15-20%
3. Vivify 10-15%
4. Effuse 8-10%
5. Whispers of Shaohao 8-12%
6. Sheilun's Gift 5-8%

etc.


TL;DR - Effuse / Mastery playstyle:

+ excellent spot healing
+ very mana efficient
+ only a small amount of overhealing
+ completely new playstyle that's not as boring as spamming EF

? better than EF spam in Mythic content
? how does it compete with other healers

- more attention for raid HP needed
- a lot more to do compared to the EF playstyle

[xGLxAnubis]

Wow, this discussion is still kind of going. Apologies to the people who quoted me and I didn't reply. I have a log of post quotes and missed them.
@Nyel

Good write up. My only comment would be that in Mythic content you'll find yourself needing the extra healing boost from EnM quite often, especially depending on how much your other healers focus the raid instead of tanks. My Druid keeps HoTs up on the tanks, as does the Priest and Shaman (Renew and Riptide), otherwise it's my job to keep them alive beyond that. Effuse/SG on their own often won't cut it, but EnM active along with them does.

[Saverem]

I honestly wouldn't even mind having such low HPS IF we had the utility of a Shaman.

Shaman's HPS is also pretty mediocre like ours, but they earn their spot by providing SEVERAL unique utility to the raid. MWs literally has NO unique utility. Everything we provide can be provided by another spec.

We are literally the most replaceable and filler healer in the game. A raid with a MW has no advantage unlike every other healer.

[Tiphess]

I only had the chance to try this in Normal and HC Nighthold but it worked.

Pack it up boys, case closed.

I don't think you understand what people mean when they say "EF spam".

We don't need to "adapt", and apparently not using EF anymore when I see your spell usage, because its getting a CD.

Seriously, we're already chasing EF hots, the only difference will be us using Mana tea for EF + viv spam instead of EF spam.

[Nyel]

Pack it up boys, case closed.

I don't think you understand what people mean when they say "EF spam".

We don't need to "adapt", and apparently not using EF anymore when I see your spell usage, because its getting a CD.

Seriously, we're already chasing EF hots, the only difference will be us using Mana tea for EF + viv spam instead of EF spam.

I know exactly what it means because I was used to that playstyle as well. EF was meant to be our main healing spell - it won't be in the near future. And for sure we need to adapt. There are thee reasons for this, a) optimal usage of our new traits, b) Mana concerns and c) EF getting a CD. Casting EF once every 12 seconds is totally different than casting it two, three or four times in a row like where doing now. And to spam Vivify (without) UT doesn't make sense unless all the other healers are sleeping and you simply need to. Spot healing the raid with Effuse after using EF is much more effective, cheaper and gives us a better overall usage of our toolkit, Mastery and traits.

[Tiphess]

>EF isn't meant to be a main healing spell
>tune the spec's entire kit around taking advantages of EF hots

???

Effuse will be, and already is with Whispers, an effective filler spell during downtimes.

This is all feelycraft crap, do the math behind it and show the actual results.

[olzenkhaw]

MW is the BEST tank healer with mastery build, I have use mastery build since legion live. I have never spam Essence Font as I hate the boring playstyle. With mastery build, MW should focus on tank healing, EM (when boss-tank don have shield) and RM on boss-tank and then keep effuse / vivify (UT up or not is not that important, vivify only when aoe damage happen) on tank. When big aoe damage happen, 1 EssenceFont, followed by vivify spam (on those who get double mastery).

[Inari]

I get the feeling Blizz are pushing MW to be a main tank cleave healer, pushing strong heals on 1 target which splash out to other targets. So Vivify hits your main target harder (because of mastery), Whispers will hit the main target harder, and obviously the MW benefits more by focusing on a target with EnM up. Sort of like a reverse beacon. I like the concept to try and make paladins less mandatory. The actual implementation remains to be seen though.

[Deleted]

druids are already on par with if not better than paladins at tank healing

[Inari]

druids are already on par with if not better than paladins at tank healing

They are not.

[Pitseleh]

They should introduce a relic that reduces the cool down of Essence Font.

[Deleted]

Thanks for posting and having the balls to experiment. I will give this a go : )

- - - Updated - - -

I'm the MT healer in my guild (after our paladin quit, we needed one) and I'm consistently ending fights with 50% or more mana and within 10% healing of our druid and shaman. Our old Paladin did less healing than I do (Because I also cleave heal and AoE burst) and was consistently OOM by the end of the fight. If/when I PUG, I notice the same thing with other paladins. Effuse is also way cheaper than Flash of Light and hits way harder with EnM up. Including Mastery and EnM, my effuse heals for 640k non-crit. Paladins Flash Hits for ~550k non-crit at my gear level (~900)? Paladin Flash is expensive, Effuse is not.

Stack Crit/Mastery instead of Vers, and your ST heals will easily rival a Paladins and you'll have way better mana efficiency AND offer the ability to raid heal better as well when required. The new traits make use even better tank healers, but everyone just kind of ignores them. 15s to fully charge Sheilun's gift instead of 2 minutes and we cleave heal for the same amount when we do it? Yes please.

If you stop spamming Essence Font you'll find we have a very strong package to do other things.

[Avada Kedavra]

This is prob the final update since in a months time the new raid will be incoming. You would think that since we have had an increase in power, with artifact talents, additional geaer etc that the trend might look differently however its worse (if thats possible). But it really goes to show that MW has truly been shit on this expac and theres no change in sight.

Skorpyron:0
Chronomatic Anomaly:0
Trilliax:2
Spellblade Aluriel:1
Tichondrius:0
Star Augur Etraeus:1
Krosus:0
High Botanist Tel'arn:0
Grand Magistrix Elisande:0
Gul'dan:0

4/1000 logs are MW.

editted OP for update