Who sacrificed more: DH or DK?

[Snes]

Your "life" as a Death Knight starts the moment you are raised,

Nice try moving the goal posts

[ChampionChains]

I don't count demon hunter sacrifices as legit and sincere. Anyone who complains about their sacrifice or feels the need to constantly bring it up in every single conversation clearly has a major case of buyers remorse. They're like vegans. They talk about it just to try and force others to think they hold some prestigious moral highground over everyone else.

[Ielenia]

Sacrifice doesn't require consent. You can sacrifice something unwillingly. People sacrifice their lives constantly in war, that doesn't mean they went in planning to die.

Uh, no. Sacrifice requires consent. You cannot 'unwillingly' sacrifice something. Even your example is wrong, as people who die in war, go to war knowing that death is a real, likely possibility.

Oh, and if you're trying to imply that the death knight's life begins when they're raised, you're just factually completely wrong. It's stated in death knight lore repeatedly that death knights have their original souls, it's one of the first things you witness upon making a new death knight. They are the same person they were when they die, they don't become a new person. That makes just as much as sense as trying to imply that a demon hunter becomes a new person when they infuse themselves with a demon's soul.

I say it "begins" when they're raised, for the simple fact that, prior to being raised, they were not Death Knights. They didn't sign up to be raised before dying. Everything about their Death Knight situation was forced upon them.

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Nice try moving the goal posts

There is no moving of goal posts. Everything about Death Knights is forced upon them, from the moment they're raised from their graves. And before that, while they were still alive, they did not die so they could become Death Knights. Simple as that.

[Sansnom]

Can't help but find it funny that every time I talk to a DH NPC they say "I have sacrificed everything, what have YOU given!?".

Bitch, I'm an Undead Death Knight.

Ok.

My family (presumably) died to the plague during Warcraft III. I myself died.

May have happened. May have not. Regardless. It was a tragedy. It was not a sacrifice.

Then I was raised against my will as a Forsaken.

Against your will. So not a sacrifice.

Then I died again, and was raised against my will by the Lich King.

Against your will. So not a sacrifice.

Then I was forced to kill what few friends I had left in the starting area.

Against your will. So not a sacrifice.

So you sacrificed nothing. A sad tale yes. But no sacrifice.

[DroganX]

Death Knights have undeniably LOST more--unwillingly. The question is who GAVE more, and that would be Demon Hunters. They sacrificed by choice, and they made a decision and knew what they were doing the whole time.

[UnluckyAmateur]

Think of it more like, DKs are goths and DHs are emos.

[Irian]

Uh, no. Sacrifice requires consent. You cannot 'unwillingly' sacrifice something. Even your example is wrong, as people who die in war, go to war knowing that death is a real, likely possibility.

I mean you can say that all you want but you're, by the definition of the word, wrong. Sacrifice doesn't require consent. I can give you a bunch of different actual dictionary definitions of the word sacrifice if you want, or you can google it yourself if you want. Sacrifice does not require consent. Simply put, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

And my example was just that, an example. There are situations where people go to war knowing very well they are almost definitely not going to survive, and then there are some that don't know. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that their deaths are a sacrifice to their cause.

I say it "begins" when they're raised, for the simple fact that, prior to being raised, they were not Death Knights. They didn't sign up to be raised before dying. Everything about their Death Knight situation was forced upon them.

This is such a non-point that it just seems kind of pointless to even respond to it. I almost didn't.

We're talking about the individual characters and people, not the class as an idea. No shit death knights weren't death knights when they sacrificed their lives in war against the Scourge and were raised. You're trying to set terms and define what "counts" as a sacrifice, by your definition of the word and on your terms to make yourself right.

If we're talking about the class right now, in Legion, that gave the most in defense of Azeroth, who sacrificed the most, then yes I'd say it goes easily to death knights. But if you want to redefine the entire question to make demon hunters the clear winner then you can do that too.

This level of semantics-bickering is honestly a little embarrassing.

[Schattenlied]

DH sacrificed more, DK had more stolen from them... There is a difference, but as fas as I'm concerned, DK's had it worse.

[Niwes]

piss on dhs. piss on dks.

while demon hunters stand around (waitin for their grand master illidan - which is promptly the good guy, regardless how much ppl he fucked up in the past) and telling you how sacrificing they are, my paladin rushes into hordes of demons and is ready to sacrifice everything for real. or in short: dhs are whiny poop gays.

after a bloody fight only won with "believe in the light" my paladin come back tired and fucked up. there he met this dk telling him "brml brml i am like you, but the dark side. i am a dark paladin, ya know? brml brml". my paladin dont even look at him, while he kick his shield into the dks stomach and walk away to go sleep. because in 2-3 hours my paladin have to ride again into a wave of demons. and he will judge them all. until he dies.

for the light. good night.

[Charge me Doctor]

Death Knights have undeniably LOST more--unwillingly. The question is who GAVE more, and that would be Demon Hunters. They sacrificed by choice, and they made a decision and knew what they were doing the whole time.

It's hardly a sacrifice when you rank up from a peasant level to a PC-powerful being. In an instant. It's like saying "well any other PC sacrificed his daily life to become a hero!", which is kinda bullshit

[Niwes]

Think of it more like, DKs are goths and DHs are emos.

ah, yes. this is the short version

[Ielenia]

<snip>

You can make your posts as big as they want and try to look as smart as you want, but this simple fact is inescapable: DKs had things stolen from them. The Lich King took their afterlife, their sense of self, damned them to a cursed existence. Nothing in there was the DK's choice, therefore there was no sacrifice from his part. The Demon Hunters, in the other hand, are shunned by the Night Elven society, seen as evil-doers, hunted by the Wardens, and wage a never-ending battle of wills in their minds against the demon inside them, and all of that happened because they chose so. The DK didn't sacrifice a single thing.

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It's hardly a sacrifice when you rank up from a peasant level to a PC-powerful being. In an instant. It's like saying "well any other PC sacrificed his daily life to become a hero!", which is kinda bullshit

Come on, man. You can't be this disingenuous. We're not talking about 'class power' or anything even remotely related to game mechanics.

[Wildmoon]

You will never get the answer as whole by comparing both groups as collective. Not all DH sacrificed. "Sacrifice" like I said before implies intentionally losing something important for the sake of others. Some DHs did it for pure vengence which is personal desire. Some DHs did it for power and did it unwillingly like Illidan. Some truly sacrificed. Just because you ruin your body in trade for power does not mean that it's automatically an act of sacrifice. Gul'dan's body was fuked up intentionally. He didn't sacrifice a thing. He simply TRADED. He may not even think he lost anything.

Most DKs did not become DK willingly, so it is not a sacrifice in this part but the act of going on a suicidal war against the scourge knowing that you will mostly likely be raised against your will is certainly an act of sacrifice.

Sacrifice is subjective. It has different meaning for different individuals because people value thing differently. Some don't even care about their place in the society which means that giving it up is not much of a sacrifice. In contrast, it may be huge for some. Losing immortality is not much of a personal sacrifice for Malfurion as much as it was for Maiev for example because Malfurion just does not percieve immortality as important to him and his people.

[munkeyinorbit]

Dk's dont realize that them hating on the Demon Hunter edgyness is actually more edgy than DH edge

DHs don't realise that pointing this out is even edgier than the DKs and makes them supreme edgelordes.

DKs sacrificed more. Just because a DH is a douche and chooses to sacrifice doesn't mean it is a higher quality sacrifice. It just makes them dicks.

[Irian]

You can make your posts as big as they want and try to look as smart as you want, but this simple fact is inescapable: DKs had things stolen from them. The Lich King took their afterlife, their sense of self, damned them to a cursed existence. Nothing in there was the DK's choice, therefore there was no sacrifice from his part. The Demon Hunters, in the other hand, are shunned by the Night Elven society, seen as evil-doers, hunted by the Wardens, and wage a never-ending battle of wills in their minds against the demon inside them, and all of that happened because they chose so. The DK didn't sacrifice a single thing.

What, do you think calling a bad argument bad is me trying to make myself sound smart? I'm really not, honestly. I'm telling you to look up a word in the dictionary because you seem to not understand its meaning.

This was a question of who sacrificed more. The question was not "Who willingly damaged themselves more". It's not "Who surrendered their lives by their own consent." You're arguing something completely irrelevant to the question and that's why this is barely worth a conversation. Goalposts are moved hard, you've basically decided the angle you're going to argue while ignoring the actual question that started the conversation.

If we're going based on who sacrificed more and who continue to sacrifice more, it's unquestionably the mortal souls trapped in necromantic undead bodies that continue to fight alongside the heroes of Azeroth despite having no figurative horse in the race whatsoever. Whether or not they signed up for it willingly is not only irrelevant, it's downright silly. It's not what the thread title asked.

[Millie]

Does nobody remember the DK intro?

The user base that DHs appeal to were in diapers when DKs released, so...

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Ok.



May have happened. May have not. Regardless. It was a tragedy. It was not a sacrifice.



Against your will. So not a sacrifice.



Against your will. So not a sacrifice.



Against your will. So not a sacrifice.

So you sacrificed nothing. A sad tale yes. But no sacrifice.

What is with your distorted definition of sacrifice?

Soldiers get shot against their will, I'll let the American veteran Society know none of them sacrificed anything.

[Kheirn]

The user base that DHs appeal to were in diapers when DKs released, so...

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What is with your distorted definition of sacrifice?

Soldiers get shot against their will, I'll let the American veteran Society know none of them sacrificed anything.

Soldiers willingly place themselves in a situation where they risk getting shot. Demon Hunters willingly give in to demonic powers, knowing it might kill them. Death knights never willingly put themselves in a situation where they knew they might become resurrected and turned into death knights.

Also, The Illidan book thoroughly explains the horrors one must go through to become a demon hunter. It's not pleasant.

[Deleted]

Emo race won by DHs cause Illidan survived and Lichking... well he is just afk.

[Volardelis]

One is willingly the other is not. Tirion did give his own life against the Legion. Forcing someone to experience Undeath is bad.

Just remember, he was willing to become the jailer of the damned until Bolvar called dibs

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It's hardly a sacrifice when you rank up from a peasant level to a PC-powerful being. In an instant. It's like saying "well any other PC sacrificed his daily life to become a hero!", which is kinda bullshit

Based on the starting area for DK's, anyone weak enough after getting resurrected is killed or chained up to act as a training dummy by those who were worthy by Instructor Raz.

So to say that the PC DK was a peasant prior to becoming a DK is not really accurate. Plus the intro says the PC Dk's were once heroes that did brave things in their previous life. Such as the Worgen DK PC freeing himself and another from Arugal's grasp back in vanilla.

[Kalrihk]

I just want to point out that there is a new Generation of Death Knights, with Legion, people are "willingly" sacrifice their lives to become a Death Knight.

As for Death Knights risen before then, they were risen off of proven fighters and shit, otherwise, they became ghouls.