[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Redblade]

Unbuffed I have 32k or so strength, so it's nearly a 800 str loss for me.
To make it even with current version, we have to accumulate at least 50k str in ToS gear.
Do you find it feasible?And as for non-mythic Dragonslayers?

50k in ToS gear should be easy. And yes I find it feasable, especially with nethershard gear giving 880 base and such.

What's good to it?
The fact that it scales?
Yes, the idea is good. But fine tuning is crucial as to not make this change obsolete, and, in the end, more harm than good.

Yes it's good that is scales as otherwise the 2k would deminish in value over time as gear becomes stronger.

[killwithpwr]

50k in ToS gear should be easy. And yes I find it feasable, especially with nethershard gear giving 880 base and such.



Yes it's good that is scales as otherwise the 2k would deminish in value over time as gear becomes stronger.

We will have to see when the datamined tomb gear values is finalized or released, but it should be a buff, conaidering the rise between EN and NH, and the exponential growth of the gear stats ovetall.
It could very well bite casual playrrs that dont have the time to get in high end pve.

The fact of the matter is, its still ptr and not at all finalized, which means feedback will come in handy.

On the other hand, they might have an intention to nerf ret.

Everything is possibleatm.

[Morally Grey Storm]

50k in ToS gear should be easy. And yes I find it feasable, especially with nethershard gear giving 880 base and such.

so you really think come ToS we'll see such an increase in main attribute?
Somehow I doubt it.
Just compare stat growth from EN to ToV to CoN.
I'm quite certain you won't notice such a magnitude.

Yes it's good that is scales as otherwise the 2k would deminish in value over time as gear becomes stronger.

The idea is good, no doubt about that.
Providing ANy scaling between stats and skills is always welcome.

But here a wild Storm Developer appears!

"Blessings of Blessings" - increases your strength by 2000 or 5%, whichever is the highest.
Voila, problem solved.
Y not tho?


on a different matter:
Prydaz get!

[Redblade]

so you really think come ToS we'll see such an increase in main attribute?
Somehow I doubt it.
Just compare stat growth from EN to ToV to CoN.
I'm quite certain you won't notice such a magnitude.

You might not see 50k on gear it self but like I said you have to take concordance in to account.

Rank 1: Your abilities have a chance to trigger Concordance of the Legionfall, increasing your primary stat by 2000 for 10 sec.
Rank 50: Your abilities have a chance to trigger Concordance of the Legionfall, increasing your primary stat by 11800 for 10 sec.

The idea is good, no doubt about that.
Providing ANy scaling between stats and skills is always welcome.

But here a wild Storm Developer appears!

"Blessings of Blessings" - increases your strength by 2000 or 5%, whichever is the highest.
Voila, problem solved.
Y not tho?

I mean I wouldn't say no to having it grant 5% but I'm thinking Blizz's though on the matter is that it would be OP down the line if they made it 5% to keep the 2k value now.

It might change though as it's PTR atm. My point was that it's not the end of the world with a slight nerf now if it ends up scaling and becoming a buff down the line.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You might not see 50k on gear it self but like I said you have to take concordance in to account.

No, I don't have to.
Why?
Because if you take into account the actual time it takes to unlock Concordance, on top of it being a quite incosistent proc-based thing, there is very little reason to take it into accout, if any.

I mean I wouldn't say no to having it grant 5% but I'm thinking Blizz's though on the matter is that it would be OP down the line if they made it 5% to keep the 2k value now.

which is why my idea has is open up to debate and tuning.
it could be very well "either 4$ or 2k str, which ever is higher" , for all I care.
Why not apply double conditions so as to not turn a traint into shit for ones and gold for others?

It might change though as it's PTR atm. My point was that it's not the end of the world with a slight nerf now if it ends up scaling and becoming a buff down the line.

I am fairly certain noone is claiming end of the world yet.
We are stating what is obvious as it is , as of bow:
it's a nerf currently as it seems.
We are displeased, we voice our opinion.
It is somewhat difficult to be happy about constant nudges, prods and nerfs.

And we shall see if it will become a buff, let alone one of any signigficance at that.

[Redblade]

No, I don't have to.
Why?
Because if you take into account the actual time it takes to unlock Concordance, on top of it being a quite incosistent proc-based thing, there is very little reason to take it into accout, if any.

You will have it without even fucking trying by the time ToS is out...

which is why my idea has is open up to debate and tuning.
it could be very well "either 4$ or 2k str, which ever is higher" , for all I care.
Why not apply double conditions so as to not turn a traint into shit for ones and gold for others?

I never said the numbers wasn't up for debate, I guess you made that up in your mind to bitch about something. As far as being either...something tells me Blizz wouldn't want to confuse the feeble-minded.

I am fairly certain noone is claiming end of the world yet.
We are stating what is obvious as it is , as of bow:
it's a nerf currently as it seems.
We are displeased, we voice our opinion.
It is somewhat difficult to be happy about constant nudges, prods and nerfs.

And we shall see if it will become a buff, let alone one of any signigficance at that.

It's 2k more STR than you had before and probably, by far, the most powerful new trait for any spec...lets just say the displeasure isn't really warranted. I'd be far more concerned about a number of other abilities and mechanics surrounding the spec before I'd care if this trait gives 4% or 5% STR.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You will have it without even fucking trying by the time ToS is out...

Orly?

I never said the numbers wasn't up for debate, I guess you made that up in your mind to bitch about something. As far as being either...something tells me Blizz wouldn't want to confuse the feeble-minded.

ara ara ara, how cute~

Accusations made up out of sheer lack of capacity to debate politely, and now cheeky(yet pathetic) attempts at being indirect and passive-agressive.
Are you sure you wish to continue with that line of conversation?

It's 2k more STR than you had before and probably, by far, the most powerful new trait for any spec...lets just say the displeasure isn't really warranted. I'd be far more concerned about a number of other abilities and mechanics surrounding the spec before I'd care if this trait gives 4% or 5% STR.

Warranted or not is entirely different topic, and a subjective one at that.
But even if we'd try to be objective as much as we could, recent, or feth, all of Ret history is riddled with constant ,retarded, kneejerk , unlogical nerfs, which might somehow warrant our displeasure, sure as sure.

Nevertheless, the point about other talents and mechanics is indeed of much importance, except they already showed us the way they are going to fix it.

Well, there are of course 2 ways to fix undesired, or flatout bad talents.
There is logical one, where you buff, and well, actually fix the broken.

And then there's the Bzzd way, where you get to be exclusively nerfed 1 day after realese of a new raid dungeon.
Or when you are told it's bad that you are trying to maximize your performance around your only viable t100 talent, and have it nerfed in order, per quote, "to encourage different playstyles".

[Redblade]

Orly?

Yeah rly...

Unless you completely ignored your AK I'd say there is little to no chance that you won't have it...besides PvP is probably the highest AP/Hour activity around.

Accusations made up out of sheer lack of capacity to debate politely, and now cheeky(yet pathetic) attempts at being indirect and passive-agressive.
Are you sure you wish to continue with that line of conversation?

What accusation? I simply pointed out I never said that the numbers wasn't up for debate. But hey you're acting really mature about it so lets just leave it there.

Warranted or not is entirely different topic, and a subjective one at that.
But even if we'd try to be objective as much as we could, recent, or feth, all of Ret history is riddled with constant ,retarded, kneejerk , unlogical nerfs, which might somehow warrant our displeasure, sure as sure.

Nevertheless, the point about other talents and mechanics is indeed of much importance, except they already showed us the way they are going to fix it.

Well, there are of course 2 ways to fix undesired, or flatout bad talents.
There is logical one, where you buff, and well, actually fix the broken.

And then there's the Bzzd way, where you get to be exclusively nerfed 1 day after realese of a new raid dungeon.
Or when you are told it's bad that you are trying to maximize your performance around your only viable t100 talent, and have it nerfed in order, per quote, "to encourage different playstyles".

Who's getting in on a completely different subject now?

[Jester Joe]

Uhh, looks like they're balancing things pretty well if they're adjusting it.
Bear in mind that the PTR is subject to change, they're likely looking for the sweet spot.

Why DO you still play this game?
You obviously don't know very much about how things are done, all you seem to want to do is whine about things you scarcely understand.

Ret has been Blizzard's golden child for years now. It is one of the specs by which other specs are tuned. To say they "obviously don't like paladins" reads more to me like, "you obviously don't play a Paladin well".

I'm almost 98% sure you're confusing Prot with Ret.

Prot paladin is the spec they've admitted to tuning other tanks around, not Ret.

[Wutangrza]

Mythic Tomb gear has ~25% more strength on it. We have 10.7k str base or so, ~36k with gear, so say 26k added from gear. 26 * 1.25 = 32.5 + 10.7k base = ~43.2k, so 4% = around 1700 strength.

With concordance, if blessing of the ashbringer updates dynamically, it might be better, but I'm left pretty underwhelmed. It'll be a long time of sitting at a huge nerf before I'm rocking full M ToS gear.

- - - Updated - - -

And it's still an absolutely gigantic nerf in PvP where ret isn't exactly amazing.

[Redblade]

With concordance, if blessing of the ashbringer updates dynamically, it might be better, but I'm left pretty underwhelmed. It'll be a long time of sitting at a huge nerf before I'm rocking full M ToS gear.

Depends how you look at it I suppose, it's 1700 more STR than you had before the trait so nerf might be a bit wrong. It's still a very powerful trait at the end of the day.

And it's still an absolutely gigantic nerf in PvP where ret isn't exactly amazing.

Which is a fair argument but as Blizz is trying to balance PvP on it's own away from PvE it's one that can, and should, be solved in another way.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Depends how you look at it I suppose, it's 1700 more STR than you had before the trait so nerf might be a bit wrong. It's still a very powerful trait at the end of the day.

Indeed it depends.
By this way of thinking, you might aswell percieve a gunshot wound to be a buff, as it's one ventilation exit more in your body than before.
It's still a nerf in it's current form and barely needs any apologist maneuvers.

Which is a fair argument but as Blizz is trying to balance PvP on it's own away from PvE it's one that can, and should, be solved in another way.

So, can you recall any, if any at all, recent actions Bzzd took to balance Retribution PvP?
Did any of these, if there were any, actions achieve said goal of balancing Retribution PvP?

[Reith]

Do, can you recall any, if any at all, recent actions Bzzd took to balance Retribution PvP?

Only the 3% strength boost.

[Redblade]

It's still a nerf in it's current form and barely needs any apologist maneuvers.

I think you're missing the point that it's fairly balanced change if you look at the trait value in and of it self. It was fairly unbalanced being worth 2k str for 1 point. This doesn't mean to say that ret doesn't have other issues that should be resolved but having a fairly unbalanced and OP trait isn't really the solution. And it comes with the benefit of being able to scale due to the change.

So, can you recall any, if any at all, recent actions Bzzd took to balance Retribution PvP?
Did any of these, if there were any, actions achieve said goal of balancing Retribution PvP?

Don't PvP much so can't say that I payed attention to it...two wrongs doesn't make a right though, it's just an asinine argument.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I think you're missing the point that it's fairly balanced change if you look at the trait value in and of it self. It was fairly unbalanced being worth 2k str for 1 point.

I think we should take the next logical step - nerf other overvalued traits wit hthis kind of approach.
nerf A2A, nerf Divine Tempest - it provides strong Aoe increase and allows us to have ranged abilities which is admittedly a lot stronger t han some measly 2k worth of strength.

This doesn't mean to say that ret doesn't have other issues that should be resolved but having a fairly unbalanced and OP trait isn't really the solution. And it comes with the benefit of being able to scale due to the change.

It is fairly unbalanced how?
It did increase our strength by 2 thounsads, which is a bit stronger than flask.
Does flask make anyone unbalanced?

Don't PvP much so can't say that I payed attention to it...two wrongs doesn't make a right though, it's just an asinine argument.

Doesn't seem anyone in aprticular made that point.
But the point made here was about them nerfing already s truggling spec when it comes to PvP.

[dnicks17]

I thought that trait was over-tuned because of the golden trait right next to it that's completely useless on lots of content(including almost the entire next raid tier).

Guess that was too logical.

[Bonham123]

To be honest, if the new trait is compared alone with all the other new specs, I do think it is among the strongest one.

But the point is Ret has been weak ST for a long time, so I think 2000 STR is just about right.

And also, scaling isn't wrong, its just that the numbers should be tuned to something like at Tomb's Heroic lv gear, it will give just more than 2000 str.

[TheRealMcCoy]

Have had trouble finding info anywhere so thought I might ask here: What is the value of Ret's T19 4 piece? http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tanbold/simple
I ask because I currently have quite a few non tier pieces that are higher iLvl than the tier pieces I have and am wondering if I should sacrifice the iLvl stat gain for the 4 piece. My armory link above shows the non tier pieces I have (cloak905, gloves900, chest910, legs900). For tier in my bags I have 900cloak, 890 hands, 890 chest, and 885 legs. Any thoughts on if I should equip 2 of those and which 2 is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for taking the time to help a new Ret out (been Prot for quite a while until few weeks ago).

[Redblade]

I think we should take the next logical step - nerf other overvalued traits wit hthis kind of approach.
nerf A2A, nerf Divine Tempest - it provides strong Aoe increase and allows us to have ranged abilities which is admittedly a lot stronger t han some measly 2k worth of strength.

This is a pointless discussion if you're just going to make asinine arguments like that...it's obviously in relation to other classes power for the same passive. Of which some have been nerfed after launch as well due to being too powerful.

Do I think it's shit that Blizz can't sort this on the PTR or internally? Sure but that doesn't mean I can't see why it's needed to nerf on occasion.

It is fairly unbalanced how?
It did increase our strength by 2 thounsads, which is a bit stronger than flask.
Does flask make anyone unbalanced?

Wow...just wow.

Doesn't seem anyone in aprticular made that point.
But the point made here was about them nerfing already s truggling spec when it comes to PvP.

You implied it by asking when Blizz took action to balance ret in PvP. Just because ret is underperforming in PvP doesn't mean it's the right thing to do to leave something unbalanced in and ignore the original problem...a problem I said they should fix btw.

- - - Updated - - -

To be honest, if the new trait is compared alone with all the other new specs, I do think it is among the strongest one.

But the point is Ret has been weak ST for a long time, so I think 2000 STR is just about right.

And also, scaling isn't wrong, its just that the numbers should be tuned to something like at Tomb's Heroic lv gear, it will give just more than 2000 str.

This might be the case that the 4% is off and hopefully it will be changed before launch of the patch if that's the case. I'm just not on board with the whole "Whaa we're being nerfed..." or "Something else is wrong with the spec so they should just leave this as is..." neither is constructive in the strive to improve the class.

[Maylander]

The 2000 Strength -> 4% thing is only a nerf in the short term. It's close to 1600 Strength for me already, and during ToS it'll surpass 2000. The only difference is that it now scales, so it'll stay equally strong until the end of the expansion. If we're going to be calling for changes, let's get a 4th golden trait that actually has some sort of benefit in fights with less than 4 targets, as that'll be norm in ToS.