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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirofune View Post
    Who knows what are we gonna do.

    I'm scared of Momentum being a thing again in raids, seriously.
    Same. I might have to quit the game if it becomes a thing. Momentum is OK in LFR - Maybe.. (All the other players create ridiculous hazards that make it annoying). In Heroic it gets dangerous and in Mythic it would be near impossible on a lot of bosses. Boss fights are not designed around 1 class having to buzz around every 4-6 seconds like a freaking idiot. This applies not only to the endless ground hazards and tank mechanics we have to avoid (conal fronts), but also how the boss is tanked... (how much room they are allowing melee if at all), the size of boss hitboxes and other mechanics like debuffs that need to be avoided, stand apart, quarantined (eg. Tichondrious).

    It was a terrible playstyle that reduced raid awareness (even though it required more awareness than any other class) and also caused me to get dizzy after a while. And nothing was worse than periods when standing still was required (e. g. getting an ad in ToV) and not being able to FR (add damage) because hey stand still.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by aGit View Post
    did some ptr testing with the demon blades build. while meta is up the extra haste is enough so i could keep on spamming buttons through out the duration of meta, however once it fell off, things got a little slow, i had around 11% haste and aothg ring. as it is, our dps is sure to take a hit if we keep on with the demon blades build. i don't know how much haste would be needed for this thing to work out nicely, but i fear demon blades in its current form on ptr, is a dps lose to the version we got on live. Even with massive amounts of haste on our gear, we would lose out on mastery or crit, so haste gear alone won't fix our blight.
    look into tier 20 set bonuses and get back to me about haste for ToS

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    look into tier 20 set bonuses and get back to me about haste for ToS
    i was comparing it to live

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by dimzum View Post
    i'm still waiting for the day momentum can stack. It would negate a lot of the issues in nh where vr and fr out of the boss can be an extreme penalty. Also allows for longer bursts when you need to burn. Vr>fr>go ham.
    this right here

  5. #145
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    Hey guys, with those changes, will our downtime increase? I was dreaming the day we could have 0% downtime like Fury Warriors, atm i have 3% and there's time rng just hate me, so i spent several seconds staring at the screen watching my char auto attack...

    I know fury gen got hit, that would increase the downtime, but on the other side, felblade may get resetted more often, so idk if it will increase, decrease or if our downtime will remain the same.

    Or even better, the way prepared is now, any chance of being better than demon blades?

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihal View Post
    Hey guys, with those changes, will our downtime increase? I was dreaming the day we could have 0% downtime like Fury Warriors, atm i have 3% and there's time rng just hate me, so i spent several seconds staring at the screen watching my char auto attack...

    I know fury gen got hit, that would increase the downtime, but on the other side, felblade may get resetted more often, so idk if it will increase, decrease or if our downtime will remain the same.

    Or even better, the way prepared is now, any chance of being better than demon blades?
    Felblade is RPPM, that means procs per minute. Even if DBlades is 100%, number of procs won't change.

    About the rest, too soon to tell.

    Even though in T20, with Tier, Blade Dance acts a generator, generating 45 fury on a successful cast, so chances are fury problems are gone by then.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirofune View Post
    Felblade is RPPM, that means procs per minute. Even if DBlades is 100%, number of procs won't change.

    About the rest, too soon to tell.

    Even though in T20, with Tier, Blade Dance acts a generator, generating 45 fury on a successful cast, so chances are fury problems are gone by then.
    It doesn't, it refunds, 40, so if you're talented, you get 25, if not, you get 5.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Manu9 View Post
    It doesn't, it refunds, 40, so if you're talented, you get 25, if not, you get 5.
    Messed up the number, yeah, 40 instead of 45. My bad.

    (Generating 45 fury and wasting 15, you get my point)

  9. #149
    While it's entirely subjective, and I don't have the hard numbers, I love how good prepared feels on the PTR. Feels very consistent, and between Felblade and Prepared, I rarely needed to Dbite. I heard that dblades still generates more fury, but I'm hoping that Prepared is viable/pulls ahead, I'm personally not a fan of the dblades passiveness.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Forde View Post
    While it's entirely subjective, and I don't have the hard numbers, I love how good prepared feels on the PTR. Feels very consistent, and between Felblade and Prepared, I rarely needed to Dbite. I heard that dblades still generates more fury, but I'm hoping that Prepared is viable/pulls ahead, I'm personally not a fan of the dblades passiveness.
    I'm not fan of zipping around a boss either.

    I honestly don't know if I like either gameplay atm.

    DBlades is a RNGfest. Momentum / Fel Rush / VR just feels bad and is just impossible to use under some situations.

    Why can't DHs get reworked into something like Fury warriors with burst windows, or SPriests, building a resource to spend it with hard hitting stuff.

    Even if its a major overhaul, I think devs should realize by now DHs are not exactly fun to play, even if numeric wise we're not the worst, and waiting for a whole expansion to fix it when the class is new is just wrong.
    Last edited by Shirofune; 2017-04-18 at 03:21 PM.

  11. #151
    Deleted
    problem is:
    if u change DH rotation 99% of the players arte again unable to play it
    kiddy dhs are overwhelmed by pressing more than 2 buttons while calling this a "rotation"

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirofune View Post
    I'm not fan of zipping around a boss either.

    I honestly don't know if I like either gameplay atm.

    DBlades is a RNGfest. Momentum / Fel Rush / VR just feels bad and is just impossible to use under some situations.

    Why can't DHs get reworked into something like Fury warriors with burst windows, or SPriests, building a resource to spend it with hard hitting stuff.

    Even if its a major overhaul, I think devs should realize by now DHs are not exactly fun to play, even if numeric wise we're not the worst, and waiting for a whole expansion to fix it when the class is new is just wrong.
    Well, I do have a large amount of fun on my DH, and personally I do enjoy momentum, I dislike how far it's fallen behind nemesis. The spec had some complexities with momentum, where you had to maximize each window with the fight spells and it felt rewarding to do. That's not to say that bursting with nemesis isn't fun, you just see more peaks and valleys with your dps.

    Overall, I don't care if nemesis or momentum is better, I just don't want dblades to be mandatory, which it will always be unless they change it so it needs and open gcd to proc.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirofune View Post
    I'm not fan of zipping around a boss either.

    I honestly don't know if I like either gameplay atm.

    DBlades is a RNGfest. Momentum / Fel Rush / VR just feels bad and is just impossible to use under some situations.

    Why can't DHs get reworked into something like Fury warriors with burst windows, or SPriests, building a resource to spend it with hard hitting stuff.

    Even if its a major overhaul, I think devs should realize by now DHs are not exactly fun to play, even if numeric wise we're not the worst, and waiting for a whole expansion to fix it when the class is new is just wrong.
    A more extreme solution would be to add a 3rd spec that is DPS to be the same as Warriors/DKs spec-wise. Let Havoc focus on trying to be a battle ballerina and let new spec be useful in raid mechanics. Doubt that would happen until next expansion, if ever.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirofune View Post
    I'm not fan of zipping around a boss either.

    I honestly don't know if I like either gameplay atm.

    DBlades is a RNGfest. Momentum / Fel Rush / VR just feels bad and is just impossible to use under some situations.

    Why can't DHs get reworked into something like Fury warriors with burst windows, or SPriests, building a resource to spend it with hard hitting stuff.

    Even if its a major overhaul, I think devs should realize by now DHs are not exactly fun to play, even if numeric wise we're not the worst, and waiting for a whole expansion to fix it when the class is new is just wrong.
    I usually agree with you on most things, Shirofune, but here is where I don't. While you may not have much fun with DH, it's clear that many, many others do. Or else it wouldn't be as popular as it is, even without FOTM.

    The reason it's not something akin to SPriests or Fury Warriors is because the simplistic playstyle was a goal, by Blizzard, for how DH should play. If people wanted to play a Fury Warr or SPriest, they'd play one.

    I'll probably sound like a broken record here but as usual, give it some time to play out on PTR. It's only the first change they've made, and it seems obvious that Blizzard is aware of the inconsistency of DH power/fury generation, as seen with the very first change they made. Just gotta keep providing feedback (whether or not changes will be made based off of good feedback is anyone's guess) to have them maybe modify / bump up the amount of fury that DBlades generates per hit. It wouldn't take much, maybe 5 more fury per hit for starters.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfròst View Post
    I usually agree with you on most things, Shirofune, but here is where I don't. While you may not have much fun with DH, it's clear that many, many others do. Or else it wouldn't be as popular as it is, even without FOTM.

    The reason it's not something akin to SPriests or Fury Warriors is because the simplistic playstyle was a goal, by Blizzard, for how DH should play. If people wanted to play a Fury Warr or SPriest, they'd play one.

    I'll probably sound like a broken record here but as usual, give it some time to play out on PTR. It's only the first change they've made, and it seems obvious that Blizzard is aware of the inconsistency of DH power/fury generation, as seen with the very first change they made. Just gotta keep providing feedback (whether or not changes will be made based off of good feedback is anyone's guess) to have them maybe modify / bump up the amount of fury that DBlades generates per hit. It wouldn't take much, maybe 5 more fury per hit for starters.
    Is not even about the fury generation anymore. Sure, not being fury starved is a great start, but will it fix the simplistic rotation? No, it won't.

    We're a 3 skills class atm. One being used on CD, the other one used to generate fury on demand and the other one used as a filler. I know DH is by design easy to play, but seriously, this is beyond easy, is brain dead.

    Now, going back to Momentum, even if it adds complexity to the rotation and that's something DH needs desperately, I don't think that's exactly what it needs. As I said, for Mythic raiding in a lot of bosses, it just doesn't work because the mechanics just don't allow it. We could go into deeper analysis explaining why exactly melee have to deal with spread mechanics when their uptime is affected a lot easier than ranged DPS, but that's for another thread.

    Summing up, I think DH needs something to change. I just don't think bringing Momentum back is the right call. We need a deeper rotation, and that's a fact. And I'm not saying here Feral Druid rotation of Wotlk. Im saying something along the lines of Ret paladin, still easy to play, but you've something to do, keeping track of your resources. As it stands, you don't even have to watch your fury bar and you'll still do fine, lol.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirofune View Post
    Is not even about the fury generation anymore. Sure, not being fury starved is a great start, but will it fix the simplistic rotation? No, it won't.

    We're a 3 skills class atm. One being used on CD, the other one used to generate fury on demand and the other one used as a filler. I know DH is by design easy to play, but seriously, this is beyond easy, is brain dead.

    Now, going back to Momentum, even if it adds complexity to the rotation and that's something DH needs desperately, I don't think that's exactly what it needs. As I said, for Mythic raiding in a lot of bosses, it just doesn't work because the mechanics just don't allow it. We could go into deeper analysis explaining why exactly melee have to deal with spread mechanics when their uptime is affected a lot easier than ranged DPS, but that's for another thread.

    Summing up, I think DH needs something to change. I just don't think bringing Momentum back is the right call. We need a deeper rotation, and that's a fact. And I'm not saying here Feral Druid rotation of Wotlk. Im saying something along the lines of Ret paladin, still easy to play, but you've something to do, keeping track of your resources. As it stands, you don't even have to watch your fury bar and you'll still do fine, lol.
    No offense, but it sounds like you're playing the wrong class, mate. The simplistic rotation is intentional. It's not changing. You gotta understand that not everyone is looking for complex gameplay. Not everyone even raids, outside LFR. It really sounds like you would prefer playing a Rogue.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfròst View Post
    No offense, but it sounds like you're playing the wrong class, mate. The simplistic rotation is intentional. It's not changing. You gotta understand that not everyone is looking for complex gameplay. Not everyone even raids, outside LFR. It really sounds like you would prefer playing a Rogue.
    Through all of Alpha and 7.0.5, when Momentum was a thing, where was the people that claimed DH was simple? And as I said, is not about simple, is about braindead. You don't have to look at anything as a DH atm. If you roll your face through the keyboard and you're lucky with fury generation, you'll outDPS the best DH in the world. That's retarded.

    And no, Rogues are not exactly hard to play either, since their waiting times are horrid. It's not a class I enjoy.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirofune View Post
    Through all of Alpha and 7.0.5, when Momentum was a thing, where was the people that claimed DH was simple? And as I said, is not about simple, is about braindead. You don't have to look at anything as a DH atm. If you roll your face through the keyboard and you're lucky with fury generation, you'll outDPS the best DH in the world. That's retarded.

    And no, Rogues are not exactly hard to play either, since their waiting times are horrid. It's not a class I enjoy.
    You don't remember the great alpha/beta complainers that whined "We're a 2 button spec" throughout its duration? I sure do. I currently raid Mythic as Havoc. Guild is 6/10 almost 7/10 mythic at the moment. Not top by any stretch but we hold our own. I prefer playing a class that doesn't have ridiculous maintenance or distraction from the boss encounter that's going on. It allows me to better react to things that are happening during the encounter. If I have to tunnelvision my rotation just to remain competitive with everyone else, that's not fun. And that's what Blizzard built this spec for. Not sure if you remember, but at Blizzcon (or Gamescom, can't remember which) they came out and stated that they wanted DH to be a class with simple gameplay.

    Maybe you and I will have to agree to disagree here. I'm just trying to present facts that were given by Blizzard themselves as to why DH is the way it is.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfròst View Post
    You don't remember the great alpha/beta complainers that whined "We're a 2 button spec" throughout its duration? I sure do. I currently raid Mythic as Havoc. Guild is 6/10 almost 7/10 mythic at the moment. Not top by any stretch but we hold our own. I prefer playing a class that doesn't have ridiculous maintenance or distraction from the boss encounter that's going on. It allows me to better react to things that are happening during the encounter. If I have to tunnelvision my rotation just to remain competitive with everyone else, that's not fun. And that's what Blizzard built this spec for. Not sure if you remember, but at Blizzcon (or Gamescom, can't remember which) they came out and stated that they wanted DH to be a class with simple gameplay.

    Maybe you and I will have to agree to disagree here. I'm just trying to present facts that were given by Blizzard themselves as to why DH is the way it is.
    I believe they said they wanted complexity to come from talents. Which the momentum and demonic builds do, to some degree at least. Those have been markedly weaker than the DBlades build since 7.1.5 in most situations though.

    Also, I'm skeptical that Blizzard's design goal here was "a great raiding spec because it's so simple to play." Even if that were the goal I think it's reasonable for players to believe that's a bad goal--you're just kicking the criticism up a level. I think an extreme design like that isn't a good idea in a class with only one DPS spec, for example.

  20. #160
    I am no fan of momentum. Pre-7.2, I ran Demonic, even in raids. It was a fun spec with decent numbers on most fights, and stupid numbers on some fights (skorp). I don't have the eye beam legendary yet and just recently got AotHG (currently using bracers / AotHG). Since 7.2, I've switched back to Felblade/Demon Blades/bloodlet build because I couldn't get close to the same numbers as before and my guild just started to get into Mythic raiding.

    I'm hoping they bring Demonic back up because I really enjoyed it, but not holding my breath.

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