Arena ruined PvP

[Kagthul]

No, arena didnt ruin PvP. Thats your opinion that you make it show like a fact. Which is not. You see i also made it appear like a fact. Ok enough of this lets go to some arguments.

I provided evidence to support my claim.

you typed a single sentence with no support.

Try again.

First of all i spent time and actually read your points as also the points of others in this thread. (i will not comment on the "1vs1 always melee should win scenario" as it appears that outside WoW you are not into many RPGs with the exception that according to your imagination all 1v1 matches are taking place in some elevator room where with two fat guyes in the room the last will have no place for other.

Firstly one of the purposes of existance of the Arena is to let your class show some skill in an instanced PvP scenario without the retarted ZERG of the WSG or the retarted aoe-win. Yes. Skill. PvE is not skill. Like it or not, you are dealing with NPC Bosses who are killed using certain tactics to oppose certain mechanics. And thats the end. Ok dress it with some lore, some fancy bosses, Beautiful areas and thats it. And of course powerful loot which is the second argument.

Im not even sure what you're saying here. Serious question - english your first language? That may be part of the disconnect. I cant follow this. Zerging is literally the best way to LOSE WSG. But thanks for playing.

Lootwise now, yes Arena back in TBC offered quick and easy epics.

That were garbage for PvE other than the weapons (because the weapons got you the higher +spellpower, at least, so the fact that one of the secondaries was wasted on resil wasn't as relevant) because one of the secondaries was always resilience, which DID come out of the stat budget. And had more stam, which DID affect how much Int/Spellpower items had. (Or Str/AP, Agi/AP, etc).

I remember raiding with some merciless felweave back then.

yeah, you could sub in some PvP gear. But it wasn't easy to obtain. You had to get certain ratings to get weapons, heads, and shoulders from the current season. And it was sub-optimal because of resilience consuming stat budget. And the items actually being allocated differently in terms of Stam/Mainstat instead of that being determined solely by iLevel.

Another sarcastic person here (who i am sure never passed 1500 pr)

Rating isnt relevant if the argument is logical and has facts to back it up. What you just did is a very bad ad-hominem.

said shadowbolt, shadowbolt, gg. And then he died and blamed healer. But all of you who say "yea all go Arena for loot nothing more" is PvE any better???

No, but neither does it pretend to be. That's sorta the point. All the tryhards in this thread are like "People didn't PvP for the gear!" or "Peopile SHOULDNT PvP for the gear, it should be about PvPing for PvPs sake!" - but it was never that. It was about the rewards. This is an MMO. People want to be rewarded for partaking in the activity they enjoy.

That simple.

The trybads and tryhards got what they wanted. No real loot progression from PvP, gear "not mattering".

What happened?

The ladder collapsed in on itself faster than light being sucked into a black hole.

Because no one did PvP just for PvPs sake.. or so few as to not be worth mentioning. It's about the rewards. Just like EVERY activity in an MMO.

Dont tell me all people who got to Karazhan, Grull....even ICC went there just for the lore to slay Arthas and not for the loot. Or lets not forget the absolutely retarded gearscore check in Wotlk in order to join a raid. 90% of people who goes for a raid goes firstly and i dare to say a big percentage of them, ONLY for the loot. World Quests fall in the same category.

Toxicity. Toxicity is everywhere. From the paladin who dares to roll on offspec, to the duo who steps in 2v2s and gets kited by the "unkillable caster". Really, at least when i am chain cced in Arena i have the guts to say that i may sucked in the last match and had to use my spell lock more carefully. I will not blame arena or the other combo for me playing noobish.

Guyes if you prefer Ashran style, to go elephant races thats ok. Just dont state it like you are the right and the others who disagree are dump.

That's not what is being said. What is being said (at least by me) is that Arena and the Dev's focus on SOLELY BALANCING for Arena is harming PvP in general.

If you feel you have an argument to debate that, go ahead.

Otherwise, you're tilting at windmills here, and arguing with... im not even sure.

[Nuba]

I provided evidence to support my claim.

you typed a single sentence with no support.

Try again.



Im not even sure what you're saying here. Serious question - english your first language? That may be part of the disconnect. I cant follow this. Zerging is literally the best way to LOSE WSG. But thanks for playing.



That were garbage for PvE other than the weapons (because the weapons got you the higher +spellpower, at least, so the fact that one of the secondaries was wasted on resil wasn't as relevant) because one of the secondaries was always resilience, which DID come out of the stat budget. And had more stam, which DID affect how much Int/Spellpower items had. (Or Str/AP, Agi/AP, etc).



yeah, you could sub in some PvP gear. But it wasn't easy to obtain. You had to get certain ratings to get weapons, heads, and shoulders from the current season. And it was sub-optimal because of resilience consuming stat budget. And the items actually being allocated differently in terms of Stam/Mainstat instead of that being determined solely by iLevel.



Rating isnt relevant if the argument is logical and has facts to back it up. What you just did is a very bad ad-hominem.



No, but neither does it pretend to be. That's sorta the point. All the tryhards in this thread are like "People didn't PvP for the gear!" or "Peopile SHOULDNT PvP for the gear, it should be about PvPing for PvPs sake!" - but it was never that. It was about the rewards. This is an MMO. People want to be rewarded for partaking in the activity they enjoy.

That simple.

The trybads and tryhards got what they wanted. No real loot progression from PvP, gear "not mattering".

What happened?

The ladder collapsed in on itself faster than light being sucked into a black hole.

Because no one did PvP just for PvPs sake.. or so few as to not be worth mentioning. It's about the rewards. Just like EVERY activity in an MMO.



That's not what is being said. What is being said (at least by me) is that Arena and the Dev's focus on SOLELY BALANCING for Arena is harming PvP in general.

If you feel you have an argument to debate that, go ahead.

Otherwise, you're tilting at windmills here, and arguing with... im not even sure.

oh stop acting like a child and either go learn how to play the game like any normal grown up would do, or just go cry in the corner or something. to constantly smash your hate on the keyboard in mmo-champs forums will be as useful as it is for those nerds posting all these trump-threads on the front page. all that crying just makes everyone here sure how much of a failure you are, its embarassing really

[Aleax]

its not an "opinion" that arena is the only relevant skill-testing factor in WoW PvP, it is a fact. Denying it won't make it less true.

That is your false opinion. I would say cutting edge is the only relevant skill-testing factor in WoW PvP, it is a fact. Denying it won't make it less true.

Nuba is right. Also one can say that arena is the most skilled part of the game, PVE included, even.
When one looks at the so-called hardcore achievement hunters for example, they are hardcore so they all complete mythic raids entries and achievments, fast. However, very few did ever reached 2400+ in arenas, but they would like, like they succeeded in mythic raids, they just for the most of them can't. - Mythic raids are easier than being a Glad -.
Glads achiev are truly for the most skilled players of the game..(or for the nit-picky Glad back before Cata, before the pruning began).

[nspeil]

When one looks at the so-called hardcore achievement hunters for example, they are hardcore so they all complete mythic raids entries and achievments, fast. However, very few did ever reached 2400+ in arenas, but they would like, like they succeeded in mythic raids, they just for the most of them can't. - Mythic raids are easier than being a Glad -

Wrong. Arena players are always garbage in large scale PVP. Mythic raiders are always better in scale PVPs since WPVP and raiding shares the same toolkit while arena does not. All top large BG players and WPVP players are cutting-edge raiders.

[Nuba]

Wrong. Arena players are always garbage in large scale PVP. Mythic raiders are always better in scale PVPs since WPVP and raiding shares the same toolkit while arena does not. All top large BG players and WPVP players are cutting-edge raiders.

stop embarassing yourself. every time you talk something it becomes clearer how horrible you are at wow and how you want to excuse your gigantic lack of skill in "arena cant measure skill".

All the best RBG teams in the world (both EU and US) are composed of multi R1 players, abns team, bailamos team, all multiple R1 glads and 2800+ arena players.

just quit wow PVP and go playsomething more fit for your skills... like watching netflix

[nspeil]

stop embarassing yourself. every time you talk something it becomes clearer how horrible you are at wow and how you want to excuse your gigantic lack of skill in "arena cant measure skill".

All the best RBG teams in the world (both EU and US) are composed of multi R1 players, abns team, bailamos team, all multiple R1 glads and 2800+ arena players.

just quit wow PVP and go playsomething more fit for your skills... like watching netflix

RBG LOL

Large BG and WPVP don't need arena skills. All top AV and WPVP players are cutting-edge raider.

[Digitalspork]

I feel like there was a thread with a very similar title to this when Burning Crusade launched Arena Season 1. >_>

I wouldn't say that Arena ruined PvP, it has more to do with how the classes are being developed at the moment in my mind.

[lolpve]

The height of pvp in this game was arena during TBC and wotlk. Don't really know how you can deny that. Vanilla pvp was statistically less popular and subjectively broken. But I'm sure it was fun for the tiny minority of players running around in T2/3 on one of the OP specs.

I feel like there was a thread with a very similar title to this when Burning Crusade launched Arena Season 1. >_>

I remember at the time some of the big vanilla pvpers were kinda "exposed" by arena as not being that great, whereas some unheard of people who avoided raiding came out of nowhere to do really well in s1.

[Aleax]

Wrong. Arena players are always garbage in large scale PVP. Mythic raiders are always better in scale PVPs since WPVP and raiding shares the same toolkit while arena does not. All top large BG players and WPVP players are cutting-edge raiders.

I didn't mean to embarass you, but I just typed some text, and you ignore it... TL;DR : Gladiator skill > Mythic skill.

[rda]

TL;DR : Gladiator skill > Mythic skill.

This is not really the case. Mythic raiders have big issues in arenas. Gladiators have big issues in mythic raids (yes, for real, you can ask them).

If we go by the "here's a guy who did X, he tried Y and succeeded / failed, so Y is less difficult / more difficult than X" than it is not clear whether it is raids or arenas that are more difficult, but it is completely, patently, perfectly clear that both of them are way LESS difficult than, for example, LoL. A typical WoW gladiator going to LoL lands in plat. Same for a typical high-end WoW raider. Yes, I saw both and heard them talk about it as well. MOBAs are way more demanding to skill than anything in WoW. The end.

[Rehija]

But I'm sure it was fun for the tiny minority of players running around in T2/3 on one of the OP specs.

Yes it was, even for not "op" speccs

I remember at the time some of the big vanilla pvpers were kinda "exposed" by arena as not being that great, whereas some unheard of people who avoided raiding came out of nowhere to do really well in s1.

Organised Vanilla PvP was first and foremost a big time investement, the more time you had, the more you could get. "Skill" in this and similar games ist composed of 90 % knowledge. What can i do, what can my enemy do, when i do this how will my enemy react, how do i react to this and that, etc. etc. etc. Reaction and the right execution are the rest of the "100% skillcap".

The real Skill in organised PvP during Vanilla was to maximize your win ratio while dodging / working with other ranking groups, just like today with the high rated players in every bracket.

[Aleax]

This is not really the case. Mythic raiders have big issues in arenas. Gladiators have big issues in mythic raids (yes, for real, you can ask them).

If we go by the "here's a guy who did X, he tried Y and succeeded / failed, so Y is less difficult / more difficult than X" than it is not clear whether it is raids or arenas that are more difficult, but it is completely, patently, perfectly clear that both of them are way LESS difficult than, for example, LoL. A typical WoW gladiator going to LoL lands in plat. Same for a typical high-end WoW raider. Yes, I saw both and heard them talk about it as well. MOBAs are way more demanding to skill than anything in WoW. The end.

My point is that the learning curve for a glad is easier for him to learn a Mythic raid, than it is for a Mythic raider to learn to be a glad, in that case the mythic raider may lack the understanding/the brain even, to be a glad, and might never become one, which is true for 95%+ of the achievement hunters.

All in all, that's pretty much how things are settled up, even for one who wants to defend mythic raiders over glads at all cost...and I don't see then the point to defend one playstyle over another without solid arguments, truth only matters to me..

[Alydael]

I don't think that arena ruined pvp.

I think Blizz's insistence on it being the pinnacle of pvp is the real problem.

What they should do is push the focus to rbg's. Really expand and promote the feature. Maybe have heralds call out and have teams form to battle at flashpoints (for extra rewards, etc). Push it over to world pvp. Have pvp style scenarios one team v another to take over a town (like the crossroads for instance). Have each team battle each other through the scenario. Make meta achieves with world pvp as the focus and have those grant nice rewards and rating.

Just think about it for a minute. When you think of "the world engulfed by war; alliance v horde" do you think of two teams of five battling it out in an arena?

It is just totally ridiculous that blizzard promotes that as the pinnacle of pvp, give me a break.

[rda]

My point is that the learning curve for a glad is easier for him to learn a Mythic raid, than it is for a Mythic raider to learn to be a glad, in that case the mythic raider may lack the understanding/the brain even, to be a glad, and might never become one, which is true for 95%+ of the achievement hunters.

This does not appear to be the case. For example, a number of glads went full PVE in Legion. Because they had to PVE a lot for AP anyway (and so decided "fuck that, if we have to PVE, let's PVE for real"). They don't have much success.

It was the same in WotLK / Cata, too. Whenever glads would be taken to a high level raid because they needed trinkets / weapon / whatever, they would be taken as noobs to be carried. They couldn't do these raids by themselves when they tried. That's from experience.

This "PVP is inherently more difficult than raids" is not true for WoW. If WoW's PVP was different, maybe it would have been true.

- - - Updated - - -

What they should do is push the focus to rbg's. Really expand and promote the feature. Maybe have heralds call out and have teams form to battle at flashpoints (for extra rewards, etc). Push it over to world pvp. Have pvp style scenarios one team v another to take over a town (like the crossroads for instance). Have each team battle each other through the scenario. Make meta achieves with world pvp as the focus and have those grant nice rewards and rating.

Without real innovation in BGs this isn't going to work. RBGs are unpopular not because Blizzard don't promote them, they are unpopular because they are boring and generally terrible. Achievements won't fix that.

[Alydael]

This does not appear to be the case. For example, a number of glads went full PVE in Legion. Because they had to PVE a lot for AP anyway (and so decided "fuck that, if we have to PVE, let's PVE for real"). They don't have much success.

It was the same in WotLK / Cata, too. Whenever glads would be taken to a high level raid because they needed trinkets / weapon / whatever, they would be taken as noobs to be carried. They couldn't do these raids by themselves when they tried. That's from experience.

This "PVP is inherently more difficult than raids" is not true for WoW. If WoW's PVP was different, maybe it would have been true.

- - - Updated - - -



Without real innovation in BGs this isn't going to work. RBGs are unpopular not because Blizzard don't promote them, they are unpopular because they are boring and generally terrible. Achievements won't fix that.

That's why I said "expand the feature." The whole BG design idea hasn't changed much since they were introduced 10 years ago. It's time for an upgrade. Modernize them. The horde v alliance conflict isn't about to be decided in an arena........ we need some real battles. I also think that achievements (as long as they have appropriate rewards attached) will promote participation in battle grounds.

[Kagthul]

oh stop acting like a child

Providing concise arguments backed up by data is "acting like a child?"

and either go learn how to play the game like any normal grown up would do, or just go cry in the corner or something.

I play just fine. My win rate in BGs that i lead is well over 90%. I dont Arena, because i dont enjoy deathmatch.

to constantly smash your hate on the keyboard in mmo-champs forums will be as useful as it is for those nerds posting all these trump-threads on the front page. all that crying just makes everyone here sure how much of a failure you are, its embarassing really

What a compelling and well thought out refutation of my facts and arguments.

Oh, wait, it's a really lame attempt at ad-hominem to distract from the fact that you don't have a valid argument. When you can't win the argument, attack the other person.

The only person looking foolish here is you.

Nice try, though. I accept that you are admitting defeat in the argument.

[Dizzeeyooo]

arena did not ruin wow pvp

balancing arena around retardedly stupid players (plus shitty class design from a developer team obsessed by raiding) ruined wow pvp

[Kauko]

Whining players ruined PVP and Blizzard catering to this players way to much.

[shrunken]

Arena ruined PVP

This is a very popular opinion among bad players.

[Matthias]

This is a very popular opinion among bad players.

This made me chuckle. I always say people who whine about PvP just suck at it. I don't get it after 10+ years Arena ruined PvP? Cause it was so balanced in Vanilla also right?