[Destruction] It's happening

[Deleted]

I find it odd this is the recurring theme these days when we went through 2 years of wod without issue and have more movement options now than we did then.

There is also some minor, yet very impactful differences between wod and legion destru. I think the loss of shadowburn will be pretty big with the "emberbits"-system.

[Baconeggcheese]

There is also some minor, yet very impactful differences between wod and legion destru. I think the loss of shadowburn will be pretty big with the "emberbits"-system.

Yes / no, it really depends on whether or not they keep flooding us with shards. Even after the change I still feel like I get a silly high amount of shards.

Its really difficult for a shard refund spell to matter when you already are struggling to spend them and an individual shard isn't worth much.

[Lucrece]

Entire expansion? lulz, chill, it has been what - 7 months since Legion launch.

The shit they do is unprecedented really, where in middle of expansion we're getting a resource rework. Back in the good ole' days, it would really take a new expansion to do.

They tried some ideas, some did not pay off, some did, happens.

Affliction is sorted, Destruction will be sorted if they play their cards right (yes with 40 seconds Havoc CD and all, it's all merely a case of tuning and smoothing rough patches) and I am pretty sure Demo will get its pass too, though not this time.

Compared to the standards of the rosy past, they are acting very fast.

Affliction is far from sorted. It's just wildly overtuned numbers wise. You could buff destro by 50% tomorrow and people would love being the new frost mage but the mechanical shit people hate like Life Tap or mastery swings or rift RNG (especially with the new flame rift) would still be there.

Affliction is no different. Once the OP numbers come down the stench of soul effigy and seed of corruption's 2.5 sec base cast+soul shard cost and Agony ramp up being useless on adds and UA comprising 50% of the spec's damage, making it a shitty multidot spec in comparison to shadow is going to come back up to the surface.

Burning Rush will still be a talent. Demonic Circle will also be a baseline ability pruned to be a competing talent with shadowfury. Backdraft will still be a talent. FnB will still be a talent (which will make Cataclysm a thing of the past given how necessary FnB is for RoF maintenance). Lord of Flames and its annoying interaction with grimoire of supremacy will still be a thing (and ST performance being tied to a 10 min cd that's basically a sindragosa on double the cd and unavailable for every other boss on m+).

DPS cd's like doomguard/infernal and grimserv:imp will still cost shards for some retarded reason, creating even more ramp up to the spec.

I can't even remember why they can't make LoF its own button like Sindragosa's Fury. Whatever, point remains. Numbers only mask mechanical annoyances/disadvantages.

The one good thing they made with affliction is they made it consistent in terms of activating artifact traits (and before you had to actually figure out which adds gave souls and which did not for some arbitrary reason).

[Gaidax]

And?


People's no.1 complaint back in the days was that we feel like Fire Mages, well there you go - that sorted out. Happy? And all this talk in regards to Affliction being poor, spare me - nobody gives a flying fuck as long as spec performs well - I always said it and current Affliction is the proof of that. You may try to spin it, but the fact is - it performs, people happy.

So yeah, if they tune Destruction well and it will perform, nobody will give a damn about such minor things like Burning Rush or Teleport, nether Life Tap is oh so horrible either - after all we don't want to be Fire Mages, do we? The shit you are complaining about is minor and damn won't be given if spec performs, end of story.



So yes, my prime interest now is that when I bring Destruction to Tomb of Sargeras, it won't be a liability and no, I could not give a damn if Burning Rush is baseline or not, because it literally does not matter when it comes to raiding viability.

What I believe that current iteration on PTR is half-baked, because many RNG factors remain and are even worse now that chances were lowered and rewards increased - this is something that needs to be addressed, after that - tuning, because in the end what we have on PTR numbers-wise is a small nerf to what already was not an amazing performer, especially with Havoc being severely cut - I expect to come out better out of this not worse or neutral which appears to be the case now.

These are the things that really matter, not frikkin' Burning Rush or interaction of LoF with a talent nobody gives a damn about.

[Lucrece]

I don't know what fantasy land you live in where nobody gives a fuck about soul effigy or MG turreting (given the actual existing threads on the official forums, and particularly one that Bacon made that got a developer response agreeing about affliction's current design), but I'm not interested in a conversation with you given they usually devolve into "this is not important to ME so it doesn't matter".

[Gaidax]

Then don't derail threads with your crap. That's easy enough.

This is Destruction thread, not the how mean devs did a booboo to me and I must cry about it eepteenth time calling them retarded thread.

Feel free to give relevant feedback in regards to Destruction changes that is important to you anyday.

[bio347]

Something interesting to think about is that baseline generation isn't really down much at all under the new system. Conflag generates less resources, sure, but you're making up the difference in Incinerate casts during the downtime (at least, without 4pc t19 - baseline, remember). Immolate gives less, but not by a huge margin. Perhaps half a shard less on average over time with the napkin-est of napkin math?

What really went down was the random generation (Soul Conduit, Soulsnatcher, Feretory), which produces the exact opposite effect of what the complaints were about: it makes the spec even more RNG-reliant, because the big CB uptimes are way swingier in their chances now.

I think Gaidax's thoughts on changing the RNG stuff to occur more frequently for less reward solves the swingy part, but it probably doesn't solve the gen rate. The only real thing to do there is to take some fragments off of Conflag.

[Lucrece]

Then don't derail threads with your crap. That's easy enough.

This is Destruction thread, not the how mean devs did a booboo to me and I must cry about it eepteenth time calling them retarded thread.

Feel free to give relevant feedback in regards to Destruction changes that is important to you anyday.

Just did, a few pages ago and on the post you dismissed because you are too caught up being a contrarian (redacted, you fill in the blanks) as the self appointed police of these forums.

Nobody asked you to read and give your input on an exchange between two people that didn't involve you. Don't like it, don't read; get lost. You also brought up affliction as being sorted into this thread, so drop the shit and stop pretending like you were on topic and everybody else derails by disputing that claim.

Something interesting to think about is that baseline generation isn't really down much at all under the new system. Conflag generates less resources, sure, but you're making up the difference in Incinerate casts during the downtime (at least, without 4pc t19 - baseline, remember). Immolate gives less, but not by a huge margin. Perhaps half a shard less on average over time with the napkin-est of napkin math?

What really went down was the random generation (Soul Conduit, Soulsnatcher, Feretory), which produces the exact opposite effect of what the complaints were about: it makes the spec even more RNG-reliant, because the big CB uptimes are way swingier in their chances now.

I think Gaidax's thoughts on changing the RNG stuff to occur more frequently for less reward solves the swingy part, but it probably doesn't solve the gen rate. The only real thing to do there is to take some fragments off of Conflag.

The problem is that completely removing the RNG procs will only invite complaints about a static playstyle. RNG you react to like added resources is not a bad thing.

Bad RNG is more along the lines of mastery or the rifts where there's nothing to react to outside the legendary shoulder windows.

And you're right, making proc chances rare repeats the Fatal Echoes effect onto destruction. Maybe they could apply some RNG smoothing mechanisms like they did with Agony shard generation for affliction.

Portals still being generated at a 5% proc rate is something that needs to be addressed as well, especially with the added layer of Flame Rift RNG. Would be nicer if they took Bacon's suggestions for higher procs that shave cd off the portal recharge.

[Avikur]

And?


People's no.1 complaint back in the days was that we feel like Fire Mages, well there you go - that sorted out. Happy? And all this talk in regards to Affliction being poor, spare me - nobody gives a flying fuck as long as spec performs well - I always said it and current Affliction is the proof of that. You may try to spin it, but the fact is - it performs, people happy.

So yeah, if they tune Destruction well and it will perform, nobody will give a damn about such minor things like Burning Rush or Teleport, nether Life Tap is oh so horrible either - after all we don't want to be Fire Mages, do we? The shit you are complaining about is minor and damn won't be given if spec performs, end of story.



So yes, my prime interest now is that when I bring Destruction to Tomb of Sargeras, it won't be a liability and no, I could not give a damn if Burning Rush is baseline or not, because it literally does not matter when it comes to raiding viability.

What I believe that current iteration on PTR is half-baked, because many RNG factors remain and are even worse now that chances were lowered and rewards increased - this is something that needs to be addressed, after that - tuning, because in the end what we have on PTR numbers-wise is a small nerf to what already was not an amazing performer, especially with Havoc being severely cut - I expect to come out better out of this not worse or neutral which appears to be the case now.

These are the things that really matter, not frikkin' Burning Rush or interaction of LoF with a talent nobody gives a damn about.

Please don't think because these things don't matter to you that they aren't important, yes how much damage can be done is the most important issue, but how enjoyable it is and how fluid it is are arguably just as important. It always comes across like you look for any reason to disagree with people.

[Gaidax]

The idea is to concentrate on what's important and what is being addressed at this moment - resource generation, spenders being impactful, AoE not being broken with changes and single target improvements in return for cleave uptime reduction.

This is what we need and now is the time. Rest of the trash is simply irrelevant for now. Again, when I go as Destruction to ToS I need to be sure the spec performs basic damage dealing duties correctly and satisfactory. This is prime concern which must be brought forward, instead of watering down the message with complaints how evil devs killed your puppy and how you don't have Burning Rush baseline anymore.

I hope we will get to this point soon where these things become a priority, just before we need to make sure we can effectively do damage in a non-cancer way.

- - - Updated - - -

For example I tried ptr some more and I am concerned AoE outside of taking F&B is broken and ineffective. I am also concerned with performance hit in single target, a small one, but it's there, which is especially bad considering Havoc nerf and finally there is still a whole load of shard RNG going on, which is a problem as it feels like the whole purpose of the change is largely defeated when you have multiple procs that can generate whole shard anyway.

I did post about it in EU forums. That's what we need to be talking about now, not Burning Rush.

Heck, any of you actually fired up ptr and spent a couple of hours there? I urge you to do it and give actual feedback to the point.

[Deleted]

Make all the random chance of shard refund to work at the fragment level (and not the shard) to even the randomess of those proc and have a more linear shard regen.

Add some soulshard regen to Rain of Fire
=> F&B should't be mandatory to have a normal AoE rotation (and i personally hate this retarded passive talent).
=> Cata should stay the best AoE burst talent (and F&B the best for sustained AoE).

Make Rain of Fire apply a Dot (less RoF, so misplacing it should not be as punishing as it is now).

With the increase of ilvl mastery will soon become something like +0% to +100%.
Maybe rework it to make the range of the mastery static (for example : 0 to 40% at 0 mastery, 20% to 60% at x mastery).
But i understand that it's hard to make a mastery with the themes of "Chaos" without adding the "random" connotation of it ...

(small complaint) Remove the generation of fragment from the portal, it has nothing to do with it.

With a normal rotation, how is the new shard generation ? (in seconds per CB cast for example)

Questions behind it are :
How much in advance do i need to plan a havoc + 2 CB combo ? is it acceptable ?
How much in advance do i need to plan a RoF ?

[Gaidax]

You can try in PTR, it's not a long setup really. Problem is that this burst window highly depends on whether RNG smiles on you with sudden shard refunds or generation via Feretory or not. I had cases where it was almost Live level of spam and I had cases where I was wondering where are all the procs and this is really still out of your control.

Of course one can not use Feretory and Soul Conduit and minimize this RNG somewhat, but I suspect results will be underwhelming.

[Shoeboots]

I'm super intrigued by these changes as a former warlock main considering a return...

I agree with Bacon (I think?) that shadow burn needs to return to baseline. Having that high cost quick burst spender just compliments the feel of building and spending so well. I think I'm okay with FnB being a talent. I think the problem is that the row only has two AoE talents and should really have three. I want to have cata or FnB in my pocket all the time but often have to choose Soul Harvest, and it's not fun. I hate choosing the not fun choice... maybe replace it with something like a passive damage increase to RoF so there's a casual option that is ideally less powerful than the other two.

[Avikur]

Shard generation is too high, it doesn't feel that different from live, Gaidax is right that you can be inundated with shards then have periods of drought. The whole point of this change was to smooth it out.

[JustaWarlock]

You can try in PTR, it's not a long setup really. Problem is that this burst window highly depends on whether RNG smiles on you with sudden shard refunds or generation via Feretory or not. I had cases where it was almost Live level of spam and I had cases where I was wondering where are all the procs and this is really still out of your control.

Of course one can not use Feretory and Soul Conduit and minimize this RNG somewhat, but I suspect results will be underwhelming.

Why are we discussing these changes like every warlock is lucky enough to have Feretory?

[Esinar]

Why are we discussing these changes like every warlock is lucky enough to have Feretory?

Well... to play devil's advocate, Blizzard have been caught saying in the past that they're fine with specs functioning 'normally' around having certain mechanical legendaries, and I believe Feretory could be considered one of these. Plus you've got to consider that eventually everyone will get it and then it will need tuning to work appropriately.

Also tbh, and not to sound like a dick here, unless you've rerolled recently from another class/spec, anyone who is serious about character progression is really wracking in legendaries atm and if you play Destro and don't have Feretory yet, you will likely get it before 7.2.5 goes live.

[Shoeboots]

if you play Destro and don't have Feretory yet, you will likely get it before 7.2.5 goes live.

What in the world are you basing this outrageous claim on?

[Gaidax]

What in the world are you basing this outrageous claim on?

You will have it eventually, you will equip it and you will see the issue, really.

A lot of those who main Destruction already have it, it's not a long shot to assume that by the next raid tier after ToS pretty much most of the people who main Destruction will have it, unless not touched Destruction at all.

[Lucrece]

I you got unlucky you could also have gamed the system by swapping and farming for other spec legendaries because with 7.2 they implemented the feature where the spec with less legendaries gets a higher chance of legendary drops.

[Esinar]

What in the world are you basing this outrageous claim on?

For real? Okay, well if you include my previous few words:

anyone who is serious about character progression is really wracking in legendaries atm and if you play Destro and don't have Feretory yet, you will likely get it before 7.2.5 goes live.

If you do all content and are not AFK in Dalaran you will get a lego every couple of resets on average. That's not outrageous as anyone in a raiding guild will tell you. I've actually averaged about one every 10 days since 7.2 and I'm up to 12 legos. I'm not bragging, and I'm not 'lucky' I just do stuff as I want to progress my character to the best of my time.