"The election is over!"

[Draco-Onis]

I'm not being obtuse at all. I'm just asking people to clarify exactly what their beef is, and in the process, their arguments are falling apart. They keep cycling through all these reasons they "need" to see his taxes, and then they can't actually define what it is they expect to find in them.

If you can't define your smoking gun, you don't need to go looking for it.

I already conceded the reason Trump doesn't want to show them, which is the reason Democrats want to see them (low charitable donations). Yet, that isn't enough for the conspiracy theory crowd. They want spy novel Russian villains involved, and line items in the returns that say "Kick back to Russia - $5,000" and the like. They start out thinking it's a crime to borrow money from banks. Then they move on to saying he is borrowing from governments, which is not an actual thing. Then they move on to the bias of having business partners. When that falls apart under basic analogies, they move on again.

These tax return theories are about as incoherent as the Occupy movement.

They have repeatedly moved the goal posts, and I have kicked field goals through them every time. Not because I am so wise, but because the things they are upset about, that may or may not be in the returns, are not actually illegal or unusual. There is just no reason to be upset that a businessman might do business in other nations. It's just simply not irregular, in any way.

it's not that complicated transparency, I think all presidents should release their returns. I am actually shocked that it is not a law because tax returns do show what kind of monetary motivation a president may have to make certain decisions. Even if you don't adhere to the Russian thing the president of the United States has a lot of power corruption and conflicts of interests should be a major concern for all.

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biggest river is these forms. lol

You're new to computers and the internet?

[McFuu]

No, they can't. In order for the FBI to get a hold of his returns they have to suspect him of illegal activity and obtain a warrant. Being in debt to foreign or domestic powers isn't illegal so there's no reason for the IRS to release his returns, but it is unethical for him to hide that possibility. Be it another country or a corporation, we need to know who pulls his strings. Now that he is a representative of the U.S. we should be the only ones doing the pulling.




Nice ad hominem.

I'm not the one in office. I'm not the one who negotiates trade deals with foreign countries. I'm not the one signing laws that affect taxes involving corporations. I'm not the one who decides what countries to fire missiles into.

And most important of all I wasn't the one who promised to release my tax returns. He was.

What did tax returns have to do with any of that? It's personal information which he can choose to release or not. This is just as stupid as the Obama birth certificate BS. If there were anything there, it would be a matter of investigation already. Chances are the what likely is a Bible worth of financial information that is his tax return would go entirely misunderstood by 90% of the people that are calling for it.

It's a witchhunt that even if they were released would make no difference.

And pretending that it matters between you or Trump releasing your taxes, it does, if you don't want to do it, what makes you think you could demand it of someone else.

[Tijuana]

LOOK AT ALL THESE SPEECHES SHE'S PAID TO GIVE gawd Hillary is such pay to play lolololz she's pure evil gawd why would you liberals ever want to elect someone who uses a position of power to make themselves money?

^ 200,000 posts of that

*6 months later*

"Who cares if Trump is using his position to make himself money, as long as it's legal? Who cares if he's having white house corporate visitors stay at his hotels and pay money into personal funds? If it's all legal then who gives a shit? Gawd you liberals are so obsessed by all this it's kinda creepy."

@Video Games
@Tijuana

Nobody ever took issue with Hillary or Bill using their fame to make money. At least, no true conservative would. They took issue because they believed, wrongly or rightly, that there was pay to play going on, based on her ACTIONS after receiving the money.

When you get Trump with some actions, let's talk. That said, I don't even doubt Trump's term will end early, and badly. But, since I don't base my thinking on emotions, I am able to separate between things that may or may not be true, and things that are just fucking ridiculous, and without merit.

If you recall, I made the right wing posters just as mad during the Hillary email debate, as well as the Benghazi debate. I just call em like I see em. This tax deal, is nonsense, plain and simple.

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it's not that complicated transparency, I think all presidents should release their returns. I am actually shocked that it is not a law because tax returns do show what kind of monetary motivation a president may have to make certain decisions. Even if you don't adhere to the Russian thing the president of the United States has a lot of power corruption and conflicts of interests should be a major concern for all.

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You're new to computers and the internet?

The tax returns are available to the authorities. There is no reason the public needs them. You guys act as if there will be a completely corrupt line item deduction or something. If someone is doing something dirty, they aren't going to just say that in their tax return. I mean...come on...

[Video Games]

Nobody ever took issue with Hillary or Bill using their fame to make money. At least, no true conservative would. They took issue because they believed, wrongly or rightly, that there was pay to play going on, based on her ACTIONS after receiving the money.

When you get Trump with some actions, let's talk. That said, I don't even doubt Trump's term will end early, and badly. But, since I don't base my thinking on emotions, I am able to separate between things that may or may not be true, and things that are just fucking ridiculous, and without merit.

If you recall, I made the right wing posters just as mad during the Hillary email debate, as well as the Benghazi debate. I just call em like I see em. This tax deal, is nonsense, plain and simple.

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The tax returns are available to the authorities. There is no reason the public needs them. You guys act as if there will be a completely corrupt line item deduction or something. If someone is doing something dirty, they aren't going to just say that in their tax return. I mean...come on...

Why do you even bother? It's fucking stupid most people on this site label you into one of two camps so easy; like it actually refutes anything.

[Draco-Onis]

The tax returns are available to the authorities. There is no reason the public needs them. You guys act as if there will be a completely corrupt line item deduction or something. If someone is doing something dirty, they aren't going to just say that in their tax return. I mean...come on...

They need probable cause and a warrant to ask for it, I didn't say anything about it being dirty I am stating that he may be motivated to make decisions that benefit him financially. I don't think it's that complicated conflicts of interests should be a concern unless you think the president is beyond greed.

[Video Games]

They need probable cause and a warrant to ask for it, I didn't say anything about it being dirty I am stating that he may be motivated to make decisions that benefit him financially. I don't think it's that complicated conflicts of interests should be a concern unless you think the president is beyond greed.

Nobody would argue multi BILlIONaire isn't beyond greed. To have more than what is needed to survive is greed itself.

[Draco-Onis]

Nobody would argue multi BILlIONaire isn't beyond greed. To have more than what is needed to survive is greed itself.

I am glad we agree that presidents should be required to release their tax returns then

[Tijuana]

They need probable cause and a warrant to ask for it, I didn't say anything about it being dirty I am stating that he may be motivated to make decisions that benefit him financially. I don't think it's that complicated conflicts of interests should be a concern unless you think the president is beyond greed.

I assure you Trumps taxes are on Comey's desktop screen right now. But, you are forgetting the fact that the IRS doesn't need special authority. Do you think for a second, that if there was something up, they would not already be leaked, in this environment? Come on man...

I don't think the president is beyond greed. But, I do think he is immune to conflict of interest laws. I also think people have it backwards with the mentality that rich people are more willing to engage in wrong doing for money than poor people are.

If you want to understand Trump, look at everything he does or might do through the lens of his giant fucking ego. He is, and always has been, more driven by fame and recognition than by money.

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Why do you even bother? It's fucking stupid most people on this site label you into one of two camps so easy; like it actually refutes anything.

You mean like, why bother being independent because partisanship is not a crime? I dunno, I just have a thing for shooting down conspiracy theories and nonsense. It's entertaining to watch them twist themselves like a human pretzel in order to allow their emotions drive their thinking.

[Draco-Onis]

I assure you Trumps taxes are on Comey's desktop screen right now. But, you are forgetting the fact that the IRS doesn't need special authority. Do you think for a second, that if there was something up, they would not already be leaked, in this environment? Come on man...

I don't think the president is beyond greed. But, I do think he is immune to conflict of interest laws. I also think people have it backwards with the mentality that rich people are more willing to engage in wrong doing for money than poor people are.

If you want to understand Trump, look at everything he does or might do through the lens of his giant fucking ego. He is, and always has been, more driven by fame and recognition than by money.

It's not about whether or not his taxes are going to land him in jail, he does have the right to privacy and it is doubtful the IRS would be willing to take the heat especially after so many scandals. I believe that people in power need to be held accountable to the public not just the laws, this should not be a partisan thing.

[Tijuana]

It's not about whether or not his taxes are going to land him in jail, he does have the right to privacy and it is doubtful the IRS would be willing to take the heat especially after so many scandals. I believe that people in power need to be held accountable to the public not just the laws, this should not be a partisan thing.

I just simply disagree. I don't think that people should forfeit any and all privacy, just because they want an elected job in government. It's none of our damn business what another persons taxes look like. Also, I think when you turn up the scrutiny to 11, you lose a lot of good people who might have been good leaders, but simply didn't want to deal with nonsense like this.

[Draco-Onis]

I just simply disagree. I don't think that people should forfeit any and all privacy, just because they want an elected job in government. It's none of our damn business what another persons taxes look like. Also, I think when you turn up the scrutiny to 11, you lose a lot of good people who might have been good leaders, but simply didn't want to deal with nonsense like this.

We can agree to disagree then, thank you for letting me see your point of view even though I strongly disagree with it.

[Eduardo]

I fail to see where this outrage is reasonably stemming from. You seem to be implying that there is hypocrisy present, but have yet to point out any such thing.

Regarding paid protesters, it is entirely possible that some at those 150 were paid to be there. I take it you deny this possibility?

Assertions without evidence may be dismissed without evidence - Hitchens Razor.

[Tijuana]

We can agree to disagree then, thank you for letting me see your point of view even though I strongly disagree with it.

Hey you too man. I think yours was one of the better arguments from your side.

[Video Games]

I assure you Trumps taxes are on Comey's desktop screen right now. But, you are forgetting the fact that the IRS doesn't need special authority. Do you think for a second, that if there was something up, they would not already be leaked, in this environment? Come on man...

I don't think the president is beyond greed. But, I do think he is immune to conflict of interest laws. I also think people have it backwards with the mentality that rich people are more willing to engage in wrong doing for money than poor people are.

If you want to understand Trump, look at everything he does or might do through the lens of his giant fucking ego. He is, and always has been, more driven by fame and recognition than by money.

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You mean like, why bother being independent because partisanship is not a crime? I dunno, I just have a thing for shooting down conspiracy theories and nonsense. It's entertaining to watch them twist themselves like a human pretzel in order to allow their emotions drive their thinking.

By all means, but on this site it's very difficult with how much people hate trump for everything he does. Or people they disagree with in general.

I am glad we agree that presidents should be required to release their tax returns then

I never stated the contrary. Also your post thanking him for his point of view is totes adorbes.

Then maybe you don't pay attention. I support his actions against North Korea, for the most part. Just not his way of handling it on twitter. There's not a lot of shit he does I do support though and the negatives far outweigh the positives.

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I'm not sure how to make it much clearer to you. It's pretty fucking simple. I think he should be completely 100% transparent with his finances so we know to be more critical of certain positions he may have in regards to another country. Even if the president has no legal conflicts of interest, he definitely can have moral conflicts of interest. If you don't think that matters then that's fine. I just disagree. I'm not some immature blind partisan shouting, "LOCK HIM UP." I just think it's possible he could lose a lot of support if he was more transparent. The less support he has, the better, since I disagree with a lot of his legislation.

So, to sum it up, I think the person leading this country should have every single detail of their life scrutinized. His life is less scrutinized than a normal civilian getting a government clearance and that just seems a bit fucked to me.

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Learn what free speech is.

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And immediately you're back to the legal aspect of it that most people are not talking about.

Sounds like you want him gone then which is exactly what I was talking about. I'm sorry trump isn't bastion of virtue you want him to be, but you can blame that on the silly dems who couldn't beat a maymay. Maybe in 3 years, you'll be in my position defending your politician of choice because the right wingers don't like that he did or didn't do something.

[Tijuana]

Then maybe you don't pay attention. I support his actions against North Korea, for the most part. Just not his way of handling it on twitter. There's not a lot of shit he does I do support though and the negatives far outweigh the positives.

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I'm not sure how to make it much clearer to you. It's pretty fucking simple. I think he should be completely 100% transparent with his finances so we know to be more critical of certain positions he may have in regards to another country. Even if the president has no legal conflicts of interest, he definitely can have moral conflicts of interest. If you don't think that matters then that's fine. I just disagree. I'm not some immature blind partisan shouting, "LOCK HIM UP." I just think it's possible he could lose a lot of support if he was more transparent. The less support he has, the better, since I disagree with a lot of his legislation.

So, to sum it up, I think the person leading this country should have every single detail of their life scrutinized. His life is less scrutinized than a normal civilian getting a government clearance and that just seems a bit fucked to me.

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Learn what free speech is.

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And immediately you're back to the legal aspect of it that most people are not talking about.

I get your point about transparency. And you are right, that is enough of a reason on it's face. The place where you guys lose me though, is the inability to define what this transparency might reveal, that is either illegal, immoral, or biased.

You really lose me though, when you call for presidents to have every single detail of their life scrutinized. That leads to a situation where our leaders are chosen for their ability to keep their nose clean, instead of their intellect and wisdom. Sure, there needs to be some transparency but, what you describe above is not a standard that existed before, and it likely never will. If you recall, the right wanted Obama's college transcripts for years and never got them. I don't think stuff like that needs to be in the public view.

And again, if you don't want to see his tax returns for legal, moral, or bias reasons, then you are are just engaging in gossip mongering.

We can agree to disagree. However, I will concede there are more nosy people on your side, than there are privacy people on my side.

[Xeones]

Aside from his typical incompetence, he is right. The election is over and pointlessly trying to go after his tax returns is stupid.

The 2016 election is over, but Trump has already started campaigning for 2020. So technically it's not over.

[BrerBear]

Nobody ever took issue with Hillary or Bill using their fame to make money. At least, no true conservative would. They took issue because they believed, wrongly or rightly, that there was pay to play going on, based on her ACTIONS after receiving the money.

I mean, holy fucking shit.

We went through more than a year on this forum of people railing on Hillary with pay-to-play accusations because of legal donations to her foundation and her paid speeches, most of which we learned about because the Clintons and their Foundation were transparent in their taxes.

But now, it's all cool for Trump to hide who's giving him money, so there can never be pay-to-play accusations against him. Yay for the USA!

When you get Trump with some actions, let's talk.

Today Trump praised Erdogan for his suspicious referendum win giving Erdogan more dictatorial powers. This was widely criticized by most other western leaders.

Coincidentally, Trump mentioned on his Nov. 9 call with Erdogan that they have mutual friends in Trump's Turkish business partner, who helped work on Trump's twin towers in Istanbul.

Do we care about any financial relationship between Trump and Erdogan or Trump's Turkish investments? Naw, who cares about any of that, there can't be pay-for-play involved as long as we just stick our heads in the sand and let Trump hide all his financials. Nothing to see here.

[Kazgrel]

The 2016 election is over, but Trump has already started campaigning for 2020. So technically it's not over.

Simply means Trump & Co. are starting early on the 2020 election. So the 2016 stuff is done and over with...on to 2018 and beyond (or next week, I suppose, for folks in France, but that's another story).

[BrerBear]

I just simply disagree. I don't think that people should forfeit any and all privacy, just because they want an elected job in government. It's none of our damn business what another persons taxes look like. Also, I think when you turn up the scrutiny to 11, you lose a lot of good people who might have been good leaders, but simply didn't want to deal with nonsense like this.

Trump's not being asked to forfeit any and all privacy. That's a gross exaggeration.
It's not any of our damn business what he does in his private residence or conversations he has with his family and personal friends. But it is our damn business who is paying him and who he is in debt to, because we have to trust he is acting in our interests, not just his own.

[Captain Unbreakable]

wait so were can i sign up to be paid to protest that sounds like a nice and easy job