Fire Buff...too much, not enough. Good start.

[wewe]

Fire needs another 5-7% on top of this to be on the acceptable range in raiding compared to Frost. It would still be ~5% behind, but the AoE will make up for it.

And what comes to raiding with Fire, yes it likely doesn't matter, but unless you are an officer in your raiding team, you likely won't even have the choice if you are in a progression guild.

I quick glance through of the logs would suggest otherwise.
Another 5-7% would bring fire on the same level as frost (maybe a bit lower, but not 5%) with WAY superior AOE. At that point there would be 0 reason to go frost when you can invest everything into fire and you will only do like 5-30k less DPS in ST ? The effort to keep your off spec at an adequate lvl would far outweigh the benefit.

if u look at WCL Krosus, a 10% buff would only bring fire to somewhere below average. Aff lock (top st) is like 30% ahead of fire no matter what percentile you're looking at

A 10% buff would put fire in the upper middle with ~40k (<5%) behind the second (melee) since looking at affli locks at the moment is as pointless now as was looking at spriests in EN.
BUT it would put fire behind frost by 12k DPS which in my opinion is way to close to a spec that is heavy ST specialized.

[Deleted]

Frost - great ST dps with the weakest AoE dps

with new talents, frost is not such garbage in aoe.

-

If you did not notice, the new gold deals damage in aoe (small one but still, it is aoe)
and instant cast blizzard makes a lot of damages, obviously not as much as living bomb would do, but pretty decent.

[wewe]

Fire needs another 5-7% on top of this to be on the acceptable range in raiding compared to Frost. It would still be ~5% behind, but the AoE will make up for it.

And what comes to raiding with Fire, yes it likely doesn't matter, but unless you are an officer in your raiding team, you likely won't even have the choice if you are in a progression guild.

I quick glance through of the logs would suggest otherwise.
Another 5-7% would bring fire on the same level as frost (maybe a bit lower, but not 5%) with WAY superior AOE. At that point there would be 0 reason to go frost when you can invest everything into fire and you will only do like 5-30k less DPS in ST ? The effort to keep your off spec at an adequate lvl would far outweigh the benefit.

if u look at WCL Krosus, a 10% buff would only bring fire to somewhere below average. Aff lock (top st) is like 30% ahead of fire no matter what percentile you're looking at

A 10% buff would put fire in the upper middle (depending what % you look at) by 5-10% behind the second (melee) since looking at affli locks at the moment is as pointless now as was looking at spriests in EN.
BUT it would put fire behind frost by 10-30k DPS which in my opinion is way to close to a spec that is heavy ST specialized.

On a side note: dafuq is with this forum, keeps freezing when i try to edit end deletes my reply ...

[lockybalboa]

DAMN, a 6% buff when we're just 26% behind frost! Damn Im so grateful take my sub blizz!

[Armourboy]

It's a start, can't really complain about that.

[Araitik]

It's definitely a good start, but the argument of "Fire has best AoE so it is normal if ST is low" is not a good one, or at least it does not apply to all classes, so why us ?

Take Frost DK : from Skorpyron to Gul'dan, same talents, same trinkets, same legendaries, insane dps in both AoE and ST.

Fire Mage ? Hope you got 4 different legendaries if you want to be remotely good. Affliction warlock ? Take anything lying around and still do 1M+ DPS.

Fire is far from overpowered, even in AoE, because Fire's AoE damage is slow while other classes deal more damage in a single GCD than us over 5 seconds. Single target is trash tier if you don't have bracers or belt. And if you do not have a ton of crit, lol hope RNG is on your side or you'll deal less than a LFR geared Frost mage.

So yeah, 6% is always nice, especially since it's accross the board, but Fire needs deeper change. Sadly, Blizzard seems to be considering the spec totally fine and won't change anything for 7.2.5

[Armourboy]

It's definitely a good start, but the argument of "Fire has best AoE so it is normal if ST is low" is not a good one, or at least it does not apply to all classes, so why us ?

Take Frost DK : from Skorpyron to Gul'dan, same talents, same trinkets, same legendaries, insane dps in both AoE and ST.

Fire Mage ? Hope you got 4 different legendaries if you want to be remotely good. Affliction warlock ? Take anything lying around and still do 1M+ DPS.

Fire is far from overpowered, even in AoE, because Fire's AoE damage is slow while other classes deal more damage in a single GCD than us over 5 seconds. Single target is trash tier if you don't have bracers or belt. And if you do not have a ton of crit, lol hope RNG is on your side or you'll deal less than a LFR geared Frost mage.

So yeah, 6% is always nice, especially since it's accross the board, but Fire needs deeper change. Sadly, Blizzard seems to be considering the spec totally fine and won't change anything for 7.2.5

Frankly I think each spec should be able to ST or AOE just as well as another, it just should be set up by what talents you choose. So Frost, Fire and Arcane should all be about equal on ST and AOE depending on what talents you pick. The spec should mainly be about the manner in which you do it and the flavor of that spec.

It's pretty ridiculous that a spec is naturally hamstrung at any given thing, that was the entire point of talents, so that you could modify what you were good at.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure if this is poor English or you don't understand how logs work. Damage on Krosus, including adds, has fire as the worst or one of the worst classes in the game at any percentile. This remains true on almost every single boss in the instance. Take Mythic Guldan with plenty of big aoe cleave that you would think fire would shine on and guess what? Its dead last at 99th percentile all the way down to 50th. Fire just sucks and this buff is a good start.

Read again what i said. Fire has to focus adds, when affli just tunnels boss... switching = losing a lot of dps. In normal progression raid fire won't be that far behind of affli lock.

[mrgreenthump]

Read again what i said. Fire has to focus adds, when affli just tunnels boss... switching = losing a lot of dps. In normal progression raid fire won't be that far behind of affli lock.

Does it matter? Removing the adds will only make Fire worse, due to us actually gaining from the adds.

[Imaskar]

A good start? Implying it will continue? Haha)
ps. no, fire rarely gain something off the adds on krosus, only if you spawn them on purpose in the end. In general case, you only loose on ignite not fully ticking and dropped casts.

[Deleted]

Never forget, that Warcraftlogs Data is screwed because top mages all go for frost. It is very likely that if half of the top mages played frost, the other half Fire, both Specs would be a lot closer.

In our raid our best mage switched to frost 6 weeks ago and our bad mage stages Fire...

When you look at pure dps potential: Fire has one player at 1.024m dps at Trilliax. Lets sad he goes up to 1.08m Now, he would have besten most ranged Specs at single target...

[stomination]

Never forget, that Warcraftlogs Data is screwed because top mages all go for frost. It is very likely that if half of the top mages played frost, the other half Fire, both Specs would be a lot closer.

In our raid our best mage switched to frost 6 weeks ago and our bad mage stages Fire...

When you look at pure dps potential: Fire has one player at 1.024m dps at Trilliax. Lets sad he goes up to 1.08m Now, he would have besten most ranged Specs at single target...

Ever asked the fire mage why?

I would be fine going frost if I had a better frost relic

[mrgreenthump]

When you look at pure dps potential: Fire has one player at 1.024m dps at Trilliax. Lets sad he goes up to 1.08m Now, he would have besten most ranged Specs at single target...

And still 18,5% behind frost.. But Trilliax is a bad boss to compare to, because at best 1-2 ranged can tunnel it and others have to deal with the mechanics, even if you overgear it, you still need to eat the cakes and soak explosions.

[Deleted]

Does it matter? Removing the adds will only make Fire worse, due to us actually gaining from the adds.

Yes it does matter. Fire does not gain dps by focusing adds, they are often too split. And noone will ask affli lock to soak the end of bridge. I have 2 fire mages in my raiding group and i have never saw them on the bottom of dps metter...

[Deleted]

And still 18,5% behind frost.. But Trilliax is a bad boss to compare to, because at best 1-2 ranged can tunnel it and others have to deal with the mechanics, even if you overgear it, you still need to eat the cakes and soak explosions.

But thats the problem. Frost is overtuned by some margin.

In order to balance all 3 specs, you would have to nerf frost mage too.

It is the same like destro/Demo Locks asking to be as powerful as affli or arms asking to be as powerful as fury.

You will pick frost for 7.2 because it is so insanely powerful. Frost will be nerfed in 7.2.5. for sure.

Pick frost for now and be happy frost is so strong. Fire needed a buff because it was so far behind most Specs.

Comparing to FOTM Specs (Affliction and Frost) is senseless.

- - - Updated - - -

Ever asked the fire mage why?

I would be fine going frost if I had a better frost relic

Then farm them. Getting a Good Relic is quite easy.

Getting the right legendary is a real Problem.. .

- - - Updated - - -

Btw i am playing Fire because frost is IMO more challenging and it is only an alt char. So IMO frost should be stronger than Fire at ST.

[Deleted]

MY balance view goal is getting 90.0 score in warcraftlogs
heroic:
(skorpyx removed, exodar padding, best mages are frost)
75% = Fire 78.1
90% = Fire 77.6
so 12,5scor = 16% buff needed

Mythic
(skorpyx removed, best mage are frost)
75% = 78.7
90% = 79.0
So 11,2score = 14,2% buff needed

So Fire needs 14-15% buff and in 7.2.5 most of that dmg needs to be converted into pyroblast / flamestrike and nerf pyrobracer (pref revamp). Koralon's could also be nerfed and that dmg put into scorch.
The big issue is despite the 7.1.5 changes fire scales horrible and needs buffs every 2-4weeks if you take that into account fire would nee 17% buff. Unholy DK's seem to scale even worse though.

Never forget, that Warcraftlogs Data is screwed because top mages all go for frost. It is very likely that if half of the top mages played frost, the other half Fire, both Specs would be a lot closer.

Unfortunatly you can't simply count this way. Since no one seems to count it properly. I also notice more bad hunters and warlocks than mages for example. I saw hunter being in top 10 parses on warcraftlogs with utility legendary compared to every firemage in top 100 having bis.

[Erolian]

Yes it does matter. Fire does not gain dps by focusing adds, they are often too split. And noone will ask affli lock to soak the end of bridge. I have 2 fire mages in my raiding group and i have never saw them on the bottom of dps metter...

These types of responses don't actually mean anything in the face of this much factual data. You're right that spread adds suck for fire but if you're having enough adds spawning that fires mages need to swap to them your guild sucks at the boss to begin with in this scenario. So you have two fire mages in raid that aren't the bottom? Congrats they're probably better players than your other dps. What does all of that mean though? Nothing. We're talking about the class assuming roughly equal skill across the raid and the overall damage that's dealt. It doesn't matter what happens in any particular guild. The trend of what is good and what isn't is right in your face and neatly organized for anyone to look at.

[Deleted]

But thats the problem. Frost is overtuned by some margin.

Heroic: Maghteridon > Exodar
(position and score lowers the lower %)
75% = 94.4score (2e)
90% = 96.0score (1e)
99% = 95,2score (1e)

Mythic: Magtheridon > Vash = Exodar
(position and score lowers rapidly the lower %)
75% = 87.1score (9e)
90% = 88.5score (5e)
99% = 87.8score (2e)

It's performance on mythic is fine. But you see their are some strange things. Their is a huge difference in skill and on heroic their insanely strong and could be said overtuned. Why this is? Well, most of this is because of Shard of Exodar and Thermal Void talent.
Shard of Exodar causes a lot of padding on zerg fights which is heroic raids, this is especially for frost where the legendaries are less impactful than fire.
Second is Thermal Void to ability to get near 100% uptime is insane. This does come at the cost of the frostmage tunneling the bosses and the rest of the ranged needing to do tactics. Their something to be said that tunnelvision spec should not deal more dmg, like current ranged vs melee. But that isn't current balance phylophy

Cross class/spec performance Frost isn't overtuned. But it has some undesired gameplay element.
Hopefully they adressed this with the TV change and also remove double Icelance and than buff frost to 88.0-91.0 score.

Shard of Exodar is a legendary that results in padding on zerg bosses giving misleading statistic on warcraftlogs.

[Deleted]

It isnt SOE. Best mage at Trilliax without SOE has 1.2m dps. Best mage at Krosus has 1.089m dps - without SoE.

Frost isnt legendary dependent as Fire. You can actually look at that Warcraftlogs Data and see that at mythic NH Sie is often Not in the top 3 of legendaries.

And even on Heroin you can see result like this without Share of Exodar:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Frost nerfs/Double IL fix will happen for sure in 7.2.5. Frost is overtuned and it Simply isnt possible to buff Fire and Ariane to the Dame insane Level.

[Wobe]

So, you see a lot of speculation and rambling on this thread, but no real numbers......

Fire was WAYYYY behind, especially in a single target situation. For the avg BiS sims fire was around 800k, a flat 6% damage buff brings that up to around 848ish. This still isn't even close to being competitive in a single target situation.

2 target cleave, Frost is one of the best specs in the game because of Splitting Ice and Artic Gale. This coupled with the Legendary bracers can make for some insanely huge cleave damage throughout an encounter.

4+ Target cleave. THIS is where you'll see Fire start to gain steam. If you have 4 targets that are up for an extended period of time so that Ignite is able to cleave onto these targets while you use LB as well you're going to see Fire be one of the better specs.

Snap AoE. Fire was never really bad for snap AoE, even before the buffs. Double Flamestrike, flamepatch, DB, and living bomb will just provide an even greater amount of snap aoe now.

TLR - It's probably a good idea to have both of your Artifact weapons leveled as far as possible before the release of ToS. Most likely you'll be able to get one fully to 52 and then maybe half way on the other. Since ToS seems to be mostly single target with maybe 3 AoE type encounters I'll probably stick to leveling my Frost weapon first, and then I'll be able to dump my remaining AP into Fire. The wrench is, if Blizzard does something to Arcane and we have to level 3 Artifact Weapons, we're screwed, one will definitely be significantly behind if not leveled equally. As far as legendaries.........good luck and catching them all.....