A damage over time spec SHOULD do more sustained damage than a normal or burst spec

[BannedForViews]

Well if they needed affliction by 10% affli would still be much better than Shadow...

I wonder how many Locks cried about shadows being soooo strong in EN and they need to balance it. And Now that they are so insane...

I know why Warcraftlogs is getting so much hatred: because it delivery Real Data and numbers. Simcraft numbers are Bullshit but Warcraftlogs shoes Real Data.

Shadow is still very strong. Shadow is also designed for cleave in 7.2. That is a choice blizzard made and have nothing to do with any other specs power.

[Fleckens]

Shadow is still very strong. Shadow is also designed for cleave in 7.2. That is a choice blizzard made and have nothing to do with any other specs power.

Shadow gets beaten by affliction even at that though, a fight like Elisande is where shadow truly shines and yet affliction still performs better there. Of course they have to choose to do it and could instead direct that damage into the boss, but the fact remains that they are just superior to shadow in pretty much every way at the moment. The fact they have the option actually makes them even stronger, shadow can't choose to do less add damage to focus more on boss.

Shadow is currently the worst performing class in nighthold though, so it's not that affliction is crazy overpowered but rather than it's probably just a bit too good and shadow is a bit too weak.

Also your 7 specs that can pull similar(although it's mostly lower) numbers are pretty much all melee, which blizzard seem to want to do higher damage on average than ranged. Most other ranged dps specs are far below affliction.

[BannedForViews]

Shadow gets beaten by affliction even at that though, a fight like Elisande is where shadow truly shines and yet affliction still performs better there. Of course they have to choose to do it and could instead direct that damage into the boss, but the fact remains that they are just superior to shadow in pretty much every way at the moment. The fact they have the option actually makes them even stronger, shadow can't choose to do less add damage to focus more on boss.

Shadow is currently the worst performing class in nighthold though, so it's not that affliction is crazy overpowered but rather than it's probably just a bit too good and shadow is a bit too weak.

Also your 7 specs that can pull similar(although it's mostly lower) numbers are pretty much all melee, which blizzard seem to want to do higher damage on average than ranged. Most other ranged dps specs are far below affliction.

You're conflating potential with strategy. Shadow can cleave very hard on the adds but the prevailing(?) strategy is to time when the adds die which requires a lot of focused bursting. The adds aren't cleaved down willy nilly like in heroic. It isn't so simple to say "oh, shadow can cleave 3 targets well but look they don't do as well as affliction" because that isn't true. Mythic Elisande is NOT heroic Botanist, where shadow rapes affliction.

To the rest of what you said, yes, shadow is all of a sudden pretty weak, but once again, that is because blizzard changed the spec for 7.2 and hasn't balanced it properly. I won't be shocked at all if shadow comes up in the near future, definitely before ToS, and that has nothing to do with affliction. Crying that affliction is better (even though shadow has raped affliction for most of Legion) is silly. Shadow should just cry that it's weaker than it was, but everyone else is stronger. It shouldn't compare itself to affliction like it deserves to be as good and/or better because it wants to be, because no one deserves anything. We get what blizzard decides to give us.

And yes, most high performing specs are melee, except marks/bm hunters, frost mages, demo locks, and elemental shaman, along with affliction. There are also fewer ranged specs at 11 out of 24, and I just named 6 of them that are doing very, very well. Balance is also very capable, especially on the more progression fights right now. Is affliction at he top of the list? Yes, it is, but it's well established how much affliction can benefit from RNG, we are aware that the new traits have given affliction a lot more power (and we cap at 47 where others may still find more power in their last traits), and we get a lot of souls now from a raid that is full of adds that provide them "all of a sudden" (whether it's been bugged from launch or not, blizz will probably never share).

tl:dr, it's far too early to claim that affliction is what shadow was in EN. The numbers don't come anywhere close to supporting that claim, and there is no real reason to nerf them right this second besides envy that affliction is currently edging other specs out for the top spot. No one was crying for nerfs to top specs in 7.1.5, so why do it now. Lets see how it plays out, and if affliction is too strong, they'll fix it, but we don't all the belly aching.

[Fleckens]

You're conflating potential with strategy. Shadow can cleave very hard on the adds but the prevailing(?) strategy is to time when the adds die which requires a lot of focused bursting. The adds aren't cleaved down willy nilly like in heroic. It isn't so simple to say "oh, shadow can cleave 3 targets well but look they don't do as well as affliction" because that isn't true. Mythic Elisande is NOT heroic Botanist, where shadow rapes affliction.

To the rest of what you said, yes, shadow is all of a sudden pretty weak, but once again, that is because blizzard changed the spec for 7.2 and hasn't balanced it properly. I won't be shocked at all if shadow comes up in the near future, definitely before ToS, and that has nothing to do with affliction. Crying that affliction is better (even though shadow has raped affliction for most of Legion) is silly. Shadow should just cry that it's weaker than it was, but everyone else is stronger. It shouldn't compare itself to affliction like it deserves to be as good and/or better because it wants to be, because no one deserves anything. We get what blizzard decides to give us.

And yes, most high performing specs are melee, except marks/bm hunters, frost mages, demo locks, and elemental shaman, along with affliction. There are also fewer ranged specs at 11 out of 24, and I just named 6 of them that are doing very, very well. Balance is also very capable, especially on the more progression fights right now. Is affliction at he top of the list? Yes, it is, but it's well established how much affliction can benefit from RNG, we are aware that the new traits have given affliction a lot more power (and we cap at 47 where others may still find more power in their last traits), and we get a lot of souls now from a raid that is full of adds that provide them "all of a sudden" (whether it's been bugged from launch or not, blizz will probably never share).

tl:dr, it's far too early to claim that affliction is what shadow was in EN. The numbers don't come anywhere close to supporting that claim, and there is no real reason to nerf them right this second besides envy that affliction is currently edging other specs out for the top spot. No one was crying for nerfs to top specs in 7.1.5, so why do it now. Lets see how it plays out, and if affliction is too strong, they'll fix it, but we don't all the belly aching.

I've been 10/10 mythic for a while now, I'm well aware of how Elisande works on mythic, the goal is to burst boss as hard as possible while timing the first set of adds in the first phase. Outside of that part you do want to focus more adds except maybe the last 1-2 blue adds, but even if shadows cheese and cleave on adds they don't really have to they still won't do as much damage as affliction no matter what they are doing.

Also I'm not quite sure where you found mm hunters and ele shamans performing that well outside of a few padded aoe fights like spellblade or tichondrius with the keeping bloods at boss tactic and the other mentions while good are still not quite at the level of affliction at the moment, not to mention frost is already getting a big nerf to their icy veins uptime in next patch.

Also funny that you would mention 7.1.5 because while I agree that affliction is nowhere near what shadow was in EN it's pretty close if not better than shadow was in 7.1.5 when stm had been nerfed but all the other damage had been buffed, and yet they nerfed our dots by 14% and 11% as well as all damage by 4%. Even if we got that damage back now we still would not be able to compete with affliction on almost any fight.

[Locks4fun]

Shadow priests can spec into holy and heal. Warlocks can't. That should warrant 5% less damage on their dps spec. The fact shadow priests were top dps and can also spec into heals during EN is beyond ridiculous.

Affliction was forced to run WIA and SE during EN and was near the bottom in dps despite BY FAR the longest ramp up time of any class. We also had to maintain positioning on the boss and our SE which is stationary. No other class or spec had to deal with all of that. For dealing with and surviving EN we should be top dps the remainder of the expansion we deserve it.

[Fleckens]

Shadow priests can spec into holy and heal. Warlocks can't. That should warrant 5% less damage on their dps spec. The fact shadow priests were top dps and can also spec into heals during EN is beyond ridiculous.

Affliction was forced to run WIA and SE during EN and was near the bottom in dps despite BY FAR the longest ramp up time of any class. We also had to maintain positioning on the boss and our SE which is stationary. No other class or spec had to deal with all of that. For dealing with and surviving EN we should be top dps the remainder of the expansion we deserve it.

Hybrid tax hasn't been a thing for years, so that argument doesn't really work. Also holy shit that entitlement you got that, you should really try and play a class that doesn't get so much love. Compared to most hybrid classes who have been shit more than they have been good across the expansions, classes like locks and mages have only had rare periods where they weren't good.

[Deleted]

Shadow priests can spec into holy and heal. Warlocks can't. That should warrant 5% less damage on their dps spec. The fact shadow priests were top dps and can also spec into heals during EN is beyond ridiculous.

Affliction was forced to run WIA and SE during EN and was near the bottom in dps despite BY FAR the longest ramp up time of any class. We also had to maintain positioning on the boss and our SE which is stationary. No other class or spec had to deal with all of that. For dealing with and surviving EN we should be top dps the remainder of the expansion we deserve it.

Demonology had good single target in EN. If hybrids shouldn't deal as much damage as a pure dps since they have other specs then affliction can't complain about low dps when they could have swapped to something more useful too.

Likewise if an encounter has adds with a high priority you can swap to destruction for it. You don't need to be overcompensated for being weak in that situation since your class allows you to be good at that scenario too.

[Sam the Wiser]

I for one can't wait till Warlocks are placed back down below. It's because of this community that my main had to suffer since we were continually used as an example of being "OP".

[Fennixx]

Hybrid tax hasn't been a thing for years, so that argument doesn't really work. Also holy shit that entitlement you got that, you should really try and play a class that doesn't get so much love. Compared to most hybrid classes who have been shit more than they have been good across the expansions, classes like locks and mages have only had rare periods where they weren't good.

Mages and locks always been fine across ALL specs

Most hybrids also were fine across ALL specs. Do not compare a single hybrid dps Spec to a whole class.

[Fleckens]

Mages and locks always been fine across ALL specs

Most hybrids also were fine across ALL specs. Do not compare a single hybrid dps Spec to a whole class.

Well no, if a priest for example is not good at dps, it's not good as a dps class period, that it can heal doesn't change the fact that it's a bad dps class. You won't be brought as a dps class because you might be able to heal on the occasion than your main healers can't raid, you get brought because you're a dps. You'd think this pure dps entitlement was long gone as it's been quite a few expansions since hybrid tax was a thing, but I guess a few still cling to the past as a way to make excuses.

[BannedForViews]

I for one can't wait till Warlocks are placed back down below. It's because of this community that my main had to suffer since we were continually used as an example of being "OP".

The salt. my goodness. You people are so damn pathetic.

- - - Updated - - -

Well no, if a priest for example is not good at dps, it's not good as a dps class period, that it can heal doesn't change the fact that it's a bad dps class. You won't be brought as a dps class because you might be able to heal on the occasion than your main healers can't raid, you get brought because you're a dps. You'd think this pure dps entitlement was long gone as it's been quite a few expansions since hybrid tax was a thing, but I guess a few still cling to the past as a way to make excuses.

So for like first 6 months of Legion, I'm sure all your posts were about how your shadow priest was too strong and needed nerfed right? Because you know full well that shadow was significantly stronger than the second dps spec during that time, than affliction is now.

[Fleckens]

The salt. my goodness. You people are so damn pathetic.

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So for like first 6 months of Legion, I'm sure all your posts were about how your shadow priest was too strong and needed nerfed right? Because you know full well that shadow was significantly stronger than the second dps spec during that time, than affliction is now.

Actually I was, just went back and checked some of my posts from back then to be sure and I was pretty much saying that shadow was too strong in raids and garbage in 5 man's so I was for nerfing stm and buffing the rest of our damage(which is pretty much what they did). Looking back at the posts I did defend that shadow should be top damage with stm due to it's punishing mechanics but that I'd much rather they just remove it as it was impossible to balance properly.

So just because you may not be able to look at your own class fairly doesn't mean others can't. Again I'll repeat myself once more, affliction is similar to or slightly stronger than shadow was in 7.1.5 after stm was nerfed, and blizzard clearly considered that too strong still. And now frost mages are already getting a big nerf leaving only affliction as the top caster left with a big gap between them and the rest(with maybe the exception of bm hunters and demo warlocks, although both are still worse than affliction).

[BannedForViews]

Actually I was, just went back and checked some of my posts from back then to be sure and I was pretty much saying that shadow was too strong in raids and garbage in 5 man's so I was for nerfing stm and buffing the rest of our damage(which is pretty much what they did). Looking back at the posts I did defend that shadow should be top damage with stm due to it's punishing mechanics but that I'd much rather they just remove it as it was impossible to balance properly.

So just because you may not be able to look at your own class fairly doesn't mean others can't. Again I'll repeat myself once more, affliction is similar to or slightly stronger than shadow was in 7.1.5 after stm was nerfed, and blizzard clearly considered that too strong still. And now frost mages are already getting a big nerf leaving only affliction as the top caster left with a big gap between them and the rest(with maybe the exception of bm hunters and demo warlocks, although both are still worse than affliction).

Okay, you're objective. And I don't give a shit what you say. Affliction is fine as is.

Fatal echoes nerf. There you go, we're fine.

[chronia]

Well no, if a priest for example is not good at dps, it's not good as a dps class period, that it can heal doesn't change the fact that it's a bad dps class. You won't be brought as a dps class because you might be able to heal on the occasion than your main healers can't raid, you get brought because you're a dps. You'd think this pure dps entitlement was long gone as it's been quite a few expansions since hybrid tax was a thing, but I guess a few still cling to the past as a way to make excuses.

Agree with you here, the hybrid tax of 5% was not good for the game at all, and i don't think anyone wants to get back to Vanilla or TBC situations (not all examples apply to both Vanilla and TBC ) where pally's and druids got laughed at when they want to dps or tank, or priests that want to dps, warriors are the only tanks, SP only get brought to be a mana battery for the warlocks and more examples that existed in the past.

I do believe however that pure's should always be in the top tier to upper mids with atleast one spec, as they don't have any options other than completely rerolling to a different class when long term balancing is screwed up by Blizzard and all their specs are bottom to low mid tier. A situation for example where in this case warlocks (but could be any class) where none of the specs are good enough to play a prominent role on progress for several raids in a row (EN, TOV and NH) where alot of guilds didn't even consider to bring them should not happen.

[Deleted]

How stupid can people be to believe that a Shadow will go Holy when Shadow sucks. Or a feral will go Balance or Guardian.

A mage can always go frost if fire sucks. As did our mages. A feral is more likely to reroll class than change spec.

Thats why Hybrid Tax is stupid. If you have tons of utility - that can be taxed like older versions of Shadow or Shamans. But not a "Shadow can go heal so Shadow should be bad".

[Fleckens]

Agree with you here, the hybrid tax of 5% was not good for the game at all, and i don't think anyone wants to get back to Vanilla or TBC situations (not all examples apply to both Vanilla and TBC ) where pally's and druids got laughed at when they want to dps or tank, or priests that want to dps, warriors are the only tanks, SP only get brought to be a mana battery for the warlocks and more examples that existed in the past.

I do believe however that pure's should always be in the top tier to upper mids with atleast one spec, as they don't have any options other than completely rerolling to a different class when long term balancing is screwed up by Blizzard and all their specs are bottom to low mid tier. A situation for example where in this case warlocks (but could be any class) where none of the specs are good enough to play a prominent role on progress for several raids in a row (EN, TOV and NH) where alot of guilds didn't even consider to bring them should not happen.

Yeah definitely, en and tov was pretty shitty for warlocks. I don't actually think warlocks were bad in 7.1.5 but since not many had played them before that as most warlocks in high end guilds had rolled other casters like sp there weren't many geared warlocks around, especially since it's easier to get legendaries for as single spec with shadow than for 2-3 specs with warlock as it kept changing what was the spec to go.

if we go by warcraftlogs nighthold before 7.2 was probably the most balanced wow has been in a long time. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#region=1

But guess we will see if warlocks go down to a bit more balanced level with this bug fix, 12% extra UA chance is a lot and that might explain why warlocks went up so much since 7.2 even on fights where they shouldn't be able to make much use of the reap change.

[Deleted]

Yeah definitely, en and tov was pretty shitty for warlocks. I don't actually think warlocks were bad in 7.1.5 but since not many had played them before that as most warlocks in high end guilds had rolled other casters like sp there weren't many geared warlocks around, especially since it's easier to get legendaries for as single spec with shadow than for 2-3 specs with warlock as it kept changing what was the spec to go.

if we go by warcraftlogs nighthold before 7.2 was probably the most balanced wow has been in a long time. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#region=1

But guess we will see if warlocks go down to a bit more balanced level with this bug fix, 12% extra UA chance is a lot and that might explain why warlocks went up so much since 7.2 even on fights where they shouldn't be able to make much use of the reap change.

Warlocks werent bad in EN....

Overall they had at least one strong spec for nearly every fight. A problem was keeping up several specs. Even now a top warlock has to be able to play at least 2 specs.

[chronia]

Warlocks werent bad in EN....

Overall they had at least one strong spec for nearly every fight. A problem was keeping up several specs. Even now a top warlock has to be able to play at least 2 specs.

And that is a different can of worms though, in a expansion like Legion (esp not the first few months) you couldn't expect ppl (apart from top 10 guild players maybe) to keep up with 2-3 specs, gear them all, get relics and legendaries for all specs and also get a decent numbers of traits in each spec.

This is somewhat better now with catch ups, vastly increased legendary droprates and the likes but at the start it was nearly impossible for almost all players.

[Deleted]

And that is a different can of worms though, in a expansion like Legion (esp not the first few months) you couldn't expect ppl (apart from top 10 guild players maybe) to keep up with 2-3 specs, gear them all, get relics and legendaries for all specs and also get a decent numbers of traits in each spec.

This is somewhat better now with catch ups, vastly increased legendary droprates and the likes but at the start it was nearly impossible for almost all players.

But it was possible to keep 2 weapons at about the Dame Level. I have one weapon at 46, our WL has 2 weapons at 44/45.

You either make every spec the same or you have distinction. Warlocks have a spec for every situation when others just suck at some fights.

If you play a WL or mage at top level you can be always strong. That was the case in EN Top once you had all the good traits in your weapon.. .

If you wanna focus on one spec forever Maybe it is smarter to play Shadow or Elemental. But in this case you just have to Deal with being weak on many fights.

[chronia]

But it was possible to keep 2 weapons at about the Dame Level. I have one weapon at 46, our WL has 2 weapons at 44/45.

You either make every spec the same or you have distinction. Warlocks have a spec for every situation when others just suck at some fights.

If you play a WL or mage at top level you can be always strong. That was the case in EN Top once you had all the good traits in your weapon.. .

If you wanna focus on one spec forever Maybe it is smarter to play Shadow or Elemental. But in this case you just have to Deal with being weak on many fights.

Now its easily possible indeed i have 46,42,40 (i think not sure about the 3rd atm, prepatch i had 54,54,4x) with reasonable gearsets to match, but when talking Week 1 EN it was not possible to get 2-3 specs with all the good traits, legendaries, geared up and with the good relics ready off the bat to be good at every boss. While for example firemages were doing really good to reasoably good with one spec. The longer it went the easier it became to get 2-3 playable but the first few weeks that was definately not the case for the vast majority of players.