A damage over time spec SHOULD do more sustained damage than a normal or burst spec

[Fennixx]

But it was possible to keep 2 weapons at about the Dame Level. I have one weapon at 46, our WL has 2 weapons at 44/45.

You either make every spec the same or you have distinction. Warlocks have a spec for every situation when others just suck at some fights.

If you play a WL or mage at top level you can be always strong. That was the case in EN Top once you had all the good traits in your weapon.. .

If you wanna focus on one spec forever Maybe it is smarter to play Shadow or Elemental. But in this case you just have to Deal with being weak on many fights.

Problem is: some people feel entitled to do optimal/above average dps on most fights using only one hybrid Spec. And worse they claim pures are OP (ir always good) but forget they are good across ALL specs, which never been easy to get good gear for.

If a pure dps player gets good gear for 3 specs, he should be able to adapt better and be above average on ALL/most fights. Otherwise there would be no reason to play a pure.

On topic: early data tells aff is really strong on ST and if it stays as It is MG will be nerfed again

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Well no, if a priest for example is not good at dps, it's not good as a dps class period, that it can heal doesn't change the fact that it's a bad dps class. You won't be brought as a dps class because you might be able to heal on the occasion than your main healers can't raid, you get brought because you're a dps. You'd think this pure dps entitlement was long gone as it's been quite a few expansions since hybrid tax was a thing, but I guess a few still cling to the past as a way to make excuses.

It has nothing to do with hybrid tax. Its about giving a reason pures to exist. If you have 3 dps specs, they are either equal on strenghts and weaknesses (impossible and boring) or have niches. If they have niches, chances are they can adapt better to the wide variety of encounters (using 3 dps specs). Thats probably the reason mages and locks are pretty much always on the top (amongst all 3 specs).

EDIT: lets not even start talking how the meta game is WAY easier to hybrids than it is to pures (questing, queues, getting groups to raids and M+, etc.)

[Deleted]

Okay, you're objective. And I don't give a shit what you say. Affliction is fine as is.

Fatal echoes nerf. There you go, we're fine.

Stop being ignorant - thanks.

[Typhoria]

By that logic, all melee should do more damage than ranged.
Each class and spec (for the most part) has their day in the sun, it's nothing new.
But in terms of balance, i wish they would balance each spec to perform no more than 5% from the mid range. So the total would at the most be 10% from worst to best. This would be for a long fight where burst from short fights would be averages out. So on some actual fights we would expect variance, especially if there are adds.

[Fleckens]

It has nothing to do with hybrid tax. Its about giving a reason pures to exist. If you have 3 dps specs, they are either equal on strenghts and weaknesses (impossible and boring) or have niches. If they have niches, chances are they can adapt better to the wide variety of encounters (using 3 dps specs). Thats probably the reason mages and locks are pretty much always on the top (amongst all 3 specs).

EDIT: lets not even start talking how the meta game is WAY easier to hybrids than it is to pures (questing, queues, getting groups to raids and M+, etc.)

You already have that, it's called having 3 specs to use in different situations, giving you far more flexibility than a hybrid dps could ever possibly have.

For some reason you seem to have a real grudge against anyone playing hybrid classes, Guessing you're mostly pugging so you have trouble getting into groups?

[Uzkin]

Now that Soul Conduit has been nerfed by 40% and Fatal Echoes during Reap by 50% do you think Affliction will still be viable in single-target boss fights (i.e. no adds dying regularly)? Or will it be reduced to a niche spec for some add fights and massive-aoe fights?

[Fennixx]

You already have that, it's called having 3 specs to use in different situations, giving you far more flexibility than a hybrid dps could ever possibly have.

For some reason you seem to have a real grudge against anyone playing hybrid classes, Guessing you're mostly pugging so you have trouble getting into groups?

No, not at all. Both my Warlock and my Demon Hunter are very well progressed on Mythic NH (missing only Guldan). Also my alt mage and spriest both have constant pugs on heroic.

It doesnt change the fact I can pug way easier when healing (priest) or tanking (as demon hunter) and also have faster queues and improved rewards. The metagame is just retardely easier as an hybrid.

Also... when I play my demon hunter (currently my main cause we didnt have one a month ago) I don`t get mad on Afflocks, Assassination rogues or frost mages if they eventually outdps me on single target. Thats how supposed to work, at least one pure dps spec on top (or close to) on most fights.

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Now that Soul Conduit has been nerfed by 40% and Fatal Echoes during Reap by 50% do you think Affliction will still be viable in single-target boss fights (i.e. no adds dying regularly)? Or will it be reduced to a niche spec for some add fights and massive-aoe fights?

Yes, it will. Effigy is quite good, even with MG.

The worst issue is T20, which turns us more and more into a tunnel spec.

[Fleckens]

No, not at all. Both my Warlock and my Demon Hunter are very well progressed on Mythic NH (missing only Guldan). Also my alt mage and spriest both have constant pugs on heroic.

It doesnt change the fact I can pug way easier when healing (priest) or tanking (as demon hunter) and also have faster queues and improved rewards. The metagame is just retardely easier as an hybrid.

Also... when I play my demon hunter (currently my main cause we didnt have one a month ago) I don`t get mad on Afflocks, Assassination rogues or frost mages if they eventually outdps me on single target. Thats how supposed to work, at least one pure dps spec on top (or close to) on most fights.

If you wish to actually play as dps though, you'd have a much easier time getting a group as a pure class so I'd say it's balanced out like that. Luckily I don't have to pug mythic+ but I would not want to try and pug those as a shadowpriest, while pretty much every pure class has at least one spec that's really good for mythic+, you are pretty much forced into the healer role, so what you see as a positive is not always so.

Also outside of affliction locks, you pretty much part of the top single target classes so your argument there doesn't really make much sense, demon hunters are very good at almost everything at the moment and in a really solid spot right now, if you're getting outdps'ed chances are you are either just outplayed or outgeared. I'd take your argument a bit more seriously if you were a shaman, druid or priest.

[Fennixx]

If you wish to actually play as dps though, you'd have a much easier time getting a group as a pure class so I'd say it's balanced out like that. Luckily I don't have to pug mythic+ but I would not want to try and pug those as a shadowpriest, while pretty much every pure class has at least one spec that's really good for mythic+, you are pretty much forced into the healer role, so what you see as a positive is not always so.

Also outside of affliction locks, you pretty much part of the top single target classes so your argument there doesn't really make much sense, demon hunters are very good at almost everything at the moment and in a really solid spot right now, if you're getting outdps'ed chances are you are either just outplayed or outgeared. I'd take your argument a bit more seriously if you were a shaman, druid or priest.

Shadow is quite good on High M+ (and pretty much required for EoA last boss on higher keystones). I know because I do on mine (guild gr tho). Oh, and shadow multidot is what afflock should be able to deliver. And that cleave...

Elemental has very good priority damage and insane AoE. It tops one encounter on M NH (Spellblade), pretty much the same as destro locks (which also are good on priotity add dmg and tops one fight).

Druids... Druids... Balance = very good cleave and tops Tichondrius dps. Feral? Granted, there isnt anything feral excels compared to other melee. And lets not forget Druids also have THE BEST healing spec and one of the tops tank specs.

Oh, you dont wanna heal or tank?Ever? Cute, the game has an option for you, thats called pure dps! Otherwise, enjoy playing half a class...

[Fleckens]

Shadow is quite good on High M+ (and pretty much required for EoA last boss on higher keystones). I know because I do on mine (guild gr tho). Oh, and shadow multidot is what afflock should be able to deliver. And that cleave...

Elemental has very good priority damage and insane AoE. It tops one encounter on M NH (Spellblade), pretty much the same as destro locks (which also are good on priotity add dmg and tops one fight).

Druids... Druids... Balance = very good cleave and tops Tichondrius dps. Feral? Granted, there isnt anything feral excels compared to other melee. And lets not forget Druids also have THE BEST healing spec and one of the tops tank specs.

Oh, you dont wanna heal or tank?Ever? Cute, the game has an option for you, thats called pure dps! Otherwise, enjoy playing half a class...

The whole point was that demon hunters don't really have any major flaws despite being a hybrid, so you're playing a hybrid that feels like what a pure class should be in your mind, so you can't say you really look at it from the perspective of a hybrid dps. But anyways, lets take a look at your arguments.

Shadow is okay in high mythic+ but far from the optimal choice, especially for certain dungeons with too many low health mobs. Also outside of crazy high ones where the fight takes forever most other classes should still be on par/beat shadow on last boss in eye considering how low our single target is, having perma execute only really brings us about on par with other classes. Shadow multidot is nice, but there's barely any fights where it has any use these days, and tomb is looking to be similar in that regard.

Elemental is similar in that it only really has one thing it's good at. Luckily that thing is also quite valuable in mythic+, but they are still pretty damn bad at pure single target damage.

Boomkins like a mix in between while still bad on single target, also it's not really great to look at tichondrius dps when most of those high dps logs come from just keeping the adds alive for ages, pretty much just padding. If you look at damage to the more important targets as well as boss damage they drop far down the ladder, all the way down to the bottom if you look purely at boss.

And lastly that argument goes both ways, don't want to deal with the trouble of finding groups as a pure dps? Guess what, game got an option for you there and it's called hybrid classes.

[Fennixx]

The whole point was that demon hunters don't really have any major flaws despite being a hybrid, so you're playing a hybrid that feels like what a pure class should be in your mind, so you can't say you really look at it from the perspective of a hybrid dps. But anyways, lets take a look at your arguments.

Shadow is okay in high mythic+ but far from the optimal choice, especially for certain dungeons with too many low health mobs. Also outside of crazy high ones where the fight takes forever most other classes should still be on par/beat shadow on last boss in eye considering how low our single target is, having perma execute only really brings us about on par with other classes. Shadow multidot is nice, but there's barely any fights where it has any use these days, and tomb is looking to be similar in that regard.

Elemental is similar in that it only really has one thing it's good at. Luckily that thing is also quite valuable in mythic+, but they are still pretty damn bad at pure single target damage.

Boomkins like a mix in between while still bad on single target, also it's not really great to look at tichondrius dps when most of those high dps logs come from just keeping the adds alive for ages, pretty much just padding. If you look at damage to the more important targets as well as boss damage they drop far down the ladder, all the way down to the bottom if you look purely at boss.

And lastly that argument goes both ways, don't want to deal with the trouble of finding groups as a pure dps? Guess what, game got an option for you there and it's called hybrid classes.

So, we finally got there. You talk about padding.

But...

Ignore most of afflock's top logs are done by people ignoring mechanics and getting as much uptime on drain soul as possible. A Very selfish playstile that doesnt warrant stacking the class.

In the end, we can probably say 7.2 aff single target damage is Very High. OP? Not in the way guilds would Stack 4 locks as they did with shadow priests in EN and ToV.

[BannedForViews]

Stop being ignorant - thanks.

Stop being a troll - thanks.

[Fleckens]

So, we finally got there. You talk about padding.

But...

Ignore most of afflock's top logs are done by people ignoring mechanics and getting as much uptime on drain soul as possible. A Very selfish playstile that doesnt warrant stacking the class.

In the end, we can probably say 7.2 aff single target damage is Very High. OP? Not in the way guilds would Stack 4 locks as they did with shadow priests in EN and ToV.

You can't really call hitting adds that are kept alive for the sake of padding the same thing as doing pure single target boss damage. Also unless you look at 95%+ logs then boomkins aren't even above affliction on tichondrius. If a class has high enough single target it will definitely get brought even if it's not the greatest at other mechanics, just take a look at assassination rogues.

The reason locks were not used in nighthold I've already mentioned several times, but I'll be nice and mention it once again. affliction locks(and locks in general) were not that great up until 7.1.5 so most guilds did not really have a ton of locks, especially not ones with affliction legendaries, also it's first really in 7.2 that locks truly started to shine. On the other hand every guild had geared shadowpriests and while they have turned out to be pretty shit now for most things now, they were pretty good for nighthold due to 3 reasons. Star augur execute, before the change you needed insane execute damage and a niche where stm fit well into. Elisande was the next, just being an overall good fight for shadow, however 7.2 nerfed the bracers which were really good on that fight as well as the haste buff mechanic, causing it to make insanity decay faster, these changes made shadow a lot worse on the fight(still decent for it though, and it's one of our best fights). Lastly Gul'dan's phase 3 shadow is really good at as it's essentially 2-3 target cleave most of the time, and when it's not it's mostly execute range on boss.


I have little doubt that if progress happened in this patch(especially if before the hotfix locks just got) that affliction locks would have been used a lot to make the dps checks on fights like star augur and elisande.
I have also never claimed that locks were on par with sp prior to 7.1.5, sp was pretty much in a completely different league to everyone else while warlocks are just a bit too good right now. However I guess they may not even be overpowered anymore with the hotfix they got, will have to wait and see the logs in the coming days.