Mythic Raid Rewards and Reducing RNG

[Artunias]

This topic is solely aimed at guilds clearing mythic bosses. In all honestly I feel like for any kind of casual player that's just running PUGs the current systems work pretty well for them, but for the organized higher end Mythic crowd? I think it's terrible. So these ideas would only apply to Mythic bosses, but I think there is a lot to be desired when it comes to the award for the time investment in Mythic raiding. A few things I'd like to see that would make it feel much better to me.

Artifact Power

Mythic bosses need to drop substantially more Artifact Power than their heroic counterparts. It takes months for even above average Mythic guilds to clear 7-8 or more bosses. While most people are full clearing heroic in 1-2 weeks. It takes a tremendously larger amount of time to kill a Mythic boss, than it does a heroic boss. That time investment needs to be rewarded. Also AP is even more important to Mythic players, it's not fun to endlessly grind random shit outside of raid times all week just so you can get AP.

I think Mythic bosses should award 3x the AP that they currently do, and this would feel good.

Loot, Trading, and RNG

I have two things here I want to discuss. First loot trading rules in a run that meets the "guild run" requirements and secondly loot RNG.

Loot Trading - This needs to be more free if you meet the guild run rules. You should be able to trade pieces even if they are higher ilvl, and you should be able to trade bonus roll items. I've seen so many items go to waste on bonus rolls that someone else in the raid would have LOVED to have, and the person who bonus rolled just sold it to the vendor. I understand that in PUGs and what not, the system serves a purpose. And as I mentioned above, I think the system is fine for PUG play. But at the organized level? It sucks when you could help a guild member progress and get an item they really wanted, but because of the system restrictions your only option is to vendor it.

RNG and Titanforge

I have two things here that I think should be addressed. And again, ONLY mythic bosses would do this. It might also be fine for the weekly M+ cache to be involved if you can clear a 15+ IN TIME

Mythic bosses should drop a currency. That currency would serve two purposes. There would be a vendor with trinkets and tier pieces on them. This vendor WOULD NOT be able to Warforge or Titanforge. But for that one trinket, or one tier piece that you get boned on. This would provide an outlet to obtain it. I think the balance would be around 18 kills to buy one item.

The second part of this currency is the vendor would also sell an item that would allow you to upgrade your items by 5 item levels to whatever the current cap is. I believe the balance for this item should be 8 kills.

This creates an exclusive reward and progression system for the Mythic raiders, as there is not anything that is exclusive to them anymore due to the Titanforge system. I am not inherently against the Titanforge system, but I think Mythic raiders deserve a way to combat the extreme RNG that is currently in the game.

[Softbottom]

Artifact Power changes I can agree with. Some guilds smash their faces against mobs for weeks and get 0 AP. AP needs to go away all together though cause the system sucks.

You should be able to to trade loot that is higher ilvl than what you are wearing I agree. Trading bonus rolls I don't agree with. You get x amount of seals per week and you use them to bonus roll on specific bosses you want loot from. What will end up happening is you will have an OP item from X boss that only drops if you are rolling for a specific loot spec and your entire guild will roll only that boss hoping for that item to bonus roll then trade it. That is not how the seals were intended to work.

WF/TF sucks. I liked Throne of Thunder WF the best. You got lucky and it proc'd and you got 4 ilvl increase. It never eclipsed the next higher difficulty with a WF item (your Heroic WF 1hander didn't eclipse the ilvl of the Mythic base version). LFR/Normal/Heroic pieces that TF higher than mythic items is dumb. The disparity between ilvls as a whole is getting ridiculous.

[Bullettime]

Titanforging is one of those things that sounds good but in reality is just fucking retarded. Extremely item level bloat and puts this huge gray area over the difficulty gap and the value of pushing into higher content.

Warforged is fine. 5 ilvls or whatever can be really nice without breaking things. But getting stuff a 905 from the Broken Shore or a 905-910 from heroic just feels ??? even if the chance is technically low.

[BrioWoW]

Yeah, got a 905 relic from regular mythic kara yesterday. Like, gee, so glad I am doing mythic night hold, maybe it can hold up to mythic kara.

[D3athsting]

The awkward moment when you 2 chest a +11 and get a curious coin and the day after you get a 910 ring after 1 minute of pew pew at world boss in broken shore...

[Nitros14]

Titanforging is awful because it means you end up DE-ing loot from progression mythic kills. The item level bloat is absurd.

[darkwarrior42]

RNG is a something Blizzard specifically wants, because they're so focused on the "OMG I JUST GOT A TITANFOGE" they couldn't possibly care less about anything else that happens as a result of the system.

RNG drops have been a part of the game forever. They had a system that let you compensate for bad luck... then, in a move that demonstrates how in love they are with RNG slot machines, decided to get rid of it in favor of another RNG system.

I don't disagree with anything you posted, but there's zero chance of any meaningful changes prior to the next expansion. Blizzard doesn't admit to errors with substantial game systems during the expansion they're introduced, they only admit to it after the next expansion is announced when they say something like "This didn't work out the way we intended, so we're going to do _____ instead."

[Softbottom]

RNG is a something Blizzard specifically wants, because they're so focused on the "OMG I JUST GOT A TITANFOGE" they couldn't possibly care less about anything else that happens as a result of the system.

RNG drops have been a part of the game forever. They had a system that let you compensate for bad luck... then, in a move that demonstrates how in love they are with RNG slot machines, decided to get rid of it in favor of another RNG system.

I don't disagree with anything you posted, but there's zero chance of any meaningful changes prior to the next expansion. Blizzard doesn't admit to errors with substantial game systems during the expansion they're introduced, they only admit to it after the next expansion is announced when they say something like "This didn't work out the way we intended, so we're going to do _____ instead."

I kinda wish they stopped turning the game upside down every xpac. They literally change stuff that isn't broken every xpac to give the game a "new" feeling. Alot of the time it's for the worse.

[Myztikrice]

It's also keeping the game alive

[Grobovshik]

It's also keeping the game alive

For new players or ppl, who can play a lot. I really like raiding system, when you can clear highest level content w/o any preparation (flask and pots are easy). Now I have a feeling Im playing 2 different World of warcrafts, 1 is raids, 2nd is preparation for them (ap grind, M+, and tons of other shit). I dont really want to play 2nd, but I cant play 1st w/o it (clearing all raids, which arent NH mythic is 2nd too, fking TF and legendary system).

[Bullettime]

It's also keeping the game alive

I wouldn't really say that at all. Warforged is fine. Sockets are fine. Tertiary stats are fine. All of those add to the excitement of getting new loot and when it rolls higher without breaking the game.

The entire system of Titanforging literally is an RNG roll that destroys the entire reward model of the game.

[Toogoodman]

Honestly TF is a dumpster fire, the best way they could fix it in the current xpac would be as follows

Normal Gear warforge +5 ilvl
Normal Gear Titanforge +10 ilvl

Heroic Gear warforge +5 ilvl
Heroic Gear Titanforge +10 ilvl

Mythic Gear warforge +5 ilvl
Mythic Gear Titanforge +10 ilvl

As for M+ and M+ Cache - If you do Max level (+15) for the weekly, because +10 is simply too easy, then your cache grants you BASE mythic ilvl, and the max roll an item can roll from an M+ dungeon would be BASE mythic ilvl.

To get a roll for the base mythic ilvl the M+ needs to be +10 or higher, this would be ridiculously easy with the introduction of the next tier. I also think that its mandatory, the current system fucking sucks, i have a 910 heroic ring off of Spellblade, and when the Mythic version drops i wont even look at it unless it TFs which is just stupid.

[Marrilaife]

Trading bonus rolls I don't agree with. You get x amount of seals per week and you use them to bonus roll on specific bosses you want loot from. What will end up happening is you will have an OP item from X boss that only drops if you are rolling for a specific loot spec and your entire guild will roll only that boss hoping for that item to bonus roll then trade it. That is not how the seals were intended to work.

Yep, you're right, first thing that came to my mind with the idea of trading bonus loot was the immediate rise of extreme abuse by "hardcore" guilds especially the ones with split runs, using alts to funnel the mains would just gain another dimension.

What I don't understand is why they removed any form of raid-specific currency, we used to have badges or valor dropping from raids so even if a person finished the raid with no loot they got some currency towards "badge gear" ensuring they didn't waste their time. No idea why this concept was scrapped.

Titanforging is a topic on its own, but generally what it created is ilvl inflation, tuning problems (things are either too easy for players in titanforged gear or too hard for players with non-titanforged gear), power creep (we wouldn't need the whole debacle about mobs scaling with ilvl if power creep wasn't so out of control), watering down of sense of reward and putting emphasis on quantity of drops (mass farming easy to average difficulty content in hopes at least a few titanforge) rather than quality (focusing on hardest difficulty you can tackle).

The proper reward structure should encourage players to move onto harder content as they outgear the easier one, but in legion players got tons of incentives to farm trivial content (titanforges, legendary chance / BLP, fast AP) and very little for actual challenging content. That is the problem. Farming trivial shit became too rewarding even for people who outgear it by miles. It created "content" but a fake one. If Blizzard added rewards for farming boars in Elwynn forest for max level characters it would suddenly become "content" but boring and lame one while also infesting low level zones with max level characters clearing everything to the ground leaving no space for true newbies.

[Myztikrice]

I wouldn't really say that at all. Warforged is fine. Sockets are fine. Tertiary stats are fine. All of those add to the excitement of getting new loot and when it rolls higher without breaking the game.

The entire system of Titanforging literally is an RNG roll that destroys the entire reward model of the game.

Destroying the reward model of the game is not mutually exclusive with keeping the game alive, and my response didn't have anything to do with titanforging, it was a response to a user saying they hated Blizzard revamping the game every expansion.

[Probably]

I don't get why everyone has a problem with TF. I feel it's just mythic raiders who believe they are owed something, or ALWAYS deserve the best reward. The world (or Blizzard) doesn't owe you a thing.

I'm a mythic raider and I'm in full support of TF. It gives everyone a reason to be excited now and then. So what if Johny LFR raider rolled a 910 BiS trinket. How does that hurt you? If you raid mythic you will always have the overall best chance to have the best gear in the game, and the probability of the 925 TF dream is the highest for you too.

However, I would love to see the loot rules for trading items changed. I agree that it's pretty restrictive. I'm sure someone would argue that gearing is too easy and that only makes it easier.

I could be down with increased AP from mythic bosses too. I mean shit...I can get over 10 million from an order hall quest...but only a little over 1 million from a mythic boss...

[Tusq]

I don't get why everyone has a problem with TF. I feel it's just mythic raiders who believe they are owed something, or ALWAYS deserve the best reward. The world (or Blizzard) doesn't owe you a thing.

I'm a mythic raider and I'm in full support of TF. It gives everyone a reason to be excited now and then. So what if Johny LFR raider rolled a 910 BiS trinket. How does that hurt you? If you raid mythic you will always have the overall best chance to have the best gear in the game, and the probability of the 925 TF dream is the highest for you too.

However, I would love to see the loot rules for trading items changed. I agree that it's pretty restrictive. I'm sure someone would argue that gearing is too easy and that only makes it easier.

I could be down with increased AP from mythic bosses too. I mean shit...I can get over 10 million from an order hall quest...but only a little over 1 million from a mythic boss...

Having killed Nythendra on mythic doesnt define you as a mythic raider.

Or you're part of the 0,1% of mythic raiders who support the TF system.

People do stuff do feel rewarded. And let's assume that the reward is gear. Why is it "fine" that someone getting lucky in an lfr raid that took 30 minutes, got the same item as someone who has spend 9 hours a week raiding, plus 40h a week to prepare (ap grind etc etc.)?
There's no logical explanation. Except the business model from Blizzard. Rewarding casuals which rewards them with more subscribers.

[Marrilaife]

Having killed Nythendra on mythic doesnt define you as a mythic raider.

Or you're part of the 0,1% of mythic raiders who support the TF system.

Some people are shortsighted, who cares if power creep is out of control, raid tuning is out of whack and can't be fixed when player power of target playerbase isn't well narrowed down, and whole reward structure is turned upside down promoting grinding and gambling rather than putting skill and effort, because Joe Shmoe can get excited 5% of the time. Who cares 95% the time he's disappointed because boss drops are trash when not titanforged. But that 5% excitement! The downsides outweigh upsides except for people who are addicted to gambling / grinding and for them the system is their wet dream.

Even non mythic raiders start seeing the problems for example the fact every m+10 pug and every hc NH pug requires way more gear than drops in there. Why? Because groups fill fast with overgeared players who enter in hope of titanforge / legendaries. That means pug leaders have no pressure to lower the requirement and players below the current gear threshold get marginalized.

[Probably]

Having killed Nythendra on mythic doesnt define you as a mythic raider.

Or you're part of the 0,1% of mythic raiders who support the TF system.

People do stuff do feel rewarded. And let's assume that the reward is gear. Why is it "fine" that someone getting lucky in an lfr raid that took 30 minutes, got the same item as someone who has spend 9 hours a week raiding, plus 40h a week to prepare (ap grind etc etc.)?
There's no logical explanation. Except the business model from Blizzard. Rewarding casuals which rewards them with more subscribers.

No one is making anyone spend more time playing a video games than most people spend working during a week. They are not entitled to anything for doing that, and I would reccomend taking a long look at their decisions that led them there.
Anyway..

I guess that makes me part of 0.1% that you somehow magically came up with. What's wrong with catering to the majority? I mean that makes way more sense from so many different angles in comparison to making sure the few mythic raiders get exactly what they want. It's not just your game or my game; it's Joe Shmoes game too. He pays his subscription just as we do. That's life.

[nicbizz]

Having killed Nythendra on mythic doesnt define you as a mythic raider.

Or you're part of the 0,1% of mythic raiders who support the TF system.

People do stuff do feel rewarded. And let's assume that the reward is gear. Why is it "fine" that someone getting lucky in an lfr raid that took 30 minutes, got the same item as someone who has spend 9 hours a week raiding, plus 40h a week to prepare (ap grind etc etc.)?
There's no logical explanation. Except the business model from Blizzard. Rewarding casuals which rewards them with more subscribers.

I bet that anyone raiding heroic and below loves the WF/TF system. Yes, it benefits casuals more than mythics. WoW is a business at the end of the day, and its good business to cater to your largest group of customers. Unfortunately, mythic raiders form only a very small part of the ecosystem - 5,000 mythic guilds x 30 raiders = 150k subscribers. That's less than 10% of the playerbase. A game design that makes 95% of your customers happy, while only inconveniencing the other 5%? That's a damn good system. Give the guy a raise.

The RNG is just icing on the cake. Variable rewards are addictive https://www.quora.com/Why-are-variab...ards-addictive (Link is not of a study, but a quick explanation on why it is). It's the reason why people stay glued to slot machines, even if they theoretically know that it is a losing game. When you see that 910 TF piece drop in Normal NH? Huge jolt of reinforcing feel-good. It's more motivation to run lower content, which keeps you engaged longer, and hopefully, continuing your subscription.

Don't count on the system going away soon. There's just way too many positives, and hardly any downside - as someone else said, Johny LFR getting the occasional 925 piece doesn't really affect Mythic Danny in any way. Johny is never ever going to be able to compete with Danny. Danny's e-peen will always be larger, perhaps not that big a difference as before, but definitely still larger.

[Deleted]

I guess you have to re-evaluate what variable rewards are, especially in the context of Legion loot system. It's just frustrating, not nearly exciting. It's a feeling of relief, just like with legendaries.