How democratic is a democracy when...

[Taneras]

It's not democracys fault that people are dumb.

Come to Scandinavia. Pick any country and you're better off than being in the states. We all enjoy far more liberty, freedom and equality than most of the world, and easily more than the US.

Makes me wonder how you justify people wanting to immigrate to the US in mass numbers.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The good thing is that the old conservatives will be an extinct breed within the next decade and the world will finally have the option to move forward. That's the good thing about life, all things eventually come to an end, religion and conservatives will eventually be so outnumbered they won't have a place in society anymore.

And hopefully the newer generations won't turn into the next era's conservatives.

[Deleted]

A two party system isn't necessarily bad, it's basically a coalition, I think you lot have them in Europe right?
Also, I really dislike the attitude of because you voted for someone that must mean you are an idiot. I think it misses the bigger picture as to why people voted that way.

We have multiple parties, especially looking at the Netherlands, Belgium and co, they often have 3 to 5 parties in their coalitions to form blockades against extremist parties, that's why our countries work well, because someone like Trump would never have the chance to rule a country unless 60% of the population voted for him.

[StayTuned]

A two party system isn't necessarily bad, it's basically a coalition, I think you lot have them in Europe right?
Also, I really dislike the attitude of because you voted for someone that must mean you are an idiot. I think it misses the bigger picture as to why people voted that way.

That's why I mostly like the German system. While there is a "winner", that winner always has to work with other parties and form coalitions. No idea really gets thrown away, a lot of people get some of the things they wanted and the parties keep each other in check (unless it's election time, then they destroy each other).

Voting for someone doesn't make you an idiot. Being confronted with the results, the ultimate consequences, of your vote and closing your eyes to it does, however.

World is getting black and white, and with each passing day it's just more black and white. But when you say that ultimately it's all the same shit when you look at the issues from above, as a neutral, you receive a shit storm from both sides. Because everyone thinks their solution is the greatest to have ever seen the light of this earth.

[Deleted]

So we have to live by the tyranny of the stupid majority, is that what you are trying to say?

There is no such thing as tyranny of the majority. If the majority decides, the majority is in the right and you have to respect that. Wether you disagree or not. Your voice is not worth more than anyone else's.

You have a vote, you have the freedom to inform yourself and you have the power to influence those around your sphere.

That is democracy and that is fair.

And believe me, the alternatives, where you try to forcibly silence people instead of letting them have a voice, leads to war.

[Wezmon]

This is an inherent problem of democracy.. people look out for themselves and parties have to be elected and so have to tell the public what they want to hear.

Extreme example, say you could prove beyond all doubt that a 50% tax was better for the population as a whole. You ran one party suggesting this tax vs another suggesting no tax. Which would get into power?

All parties have to pander to the electorate just to "stay in business"

[StayTuned]

There is no such thing as tyranny of the majority. If the majority decides, the majority is in the right and you have to respect that. Wether you disagree or not. Your voice is not worth more than anyone else's.

You have a vote, you have the freedom to inform yourself and you have the power to influence those around your sphere.

That is democracy and that is fair.

And believe me, the alternatives, where you try to forcibly silence people instead of letting them have a voice leads to war.

But what's the point of it if your vote doesn't just works against your opposition but also against you?

You are hurting yourself with your vote because the people you are voting for are not sincere.

You have a manipulated majority that doesn't even understand what the consequences of their actions are.

[Lady Dragonheart]

In all seriousness, I think that the biggest issue is that people, currently, prefer to be entertained by politics than have it be agreeable with them on a personal level of investment.

[Ghostpanther]

There is no such thing as tyranny of the majority. If the majority decides, the majority is in the right and you have to respect that. Wether you disagree or not. Your voice is not worth more than anyone else's.

You have a vote, you have the freedom to inform yourself and you have the power to influence those around your sphere.

That is democracy and that is fair.

And believe me, the alternatives, where you try to forcibly silence people instead of letting them have a voice, leads to war.

Agreed. It also leads to oppression like we saw with Stalin and Hitler. And even now in N. Korea.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

In all seriousness, I think that the biggest issue is that people, currently, prefer to be entertained by politics than have it be agreeable with them on a personal level of investment.

I can admit that politics does entertain me of sorts...and also irritate me.

[Deleted]

But what's the point of it if your vote doesn't just works against your opposition but also against you?

You are hurting yourself with your vote because the people you are voting for are not sincere.

You have a manipulated majority that doesn't even understand what the consequences of their actions are.

Then you vote on someone else. You have a brain. Think. Even a blank vote or no vote at all is an option to express your voice.

What you can't expect is for your voice to be louder than other peoples.

Also, who are you to say the majority was manipulated? They exerted their free will. That is the opposite of manipulation. Wether they let themselves influence by others is their choice. Their vote is worth as much as yours. You can't claim to be worth more votes than them. You are not special. You are the same as everyone else.
Democracy allows promises, but can also punish those that don't fulfill them.

Btw i hope this isn't related to the US system, because that can't be called a democracy.

[Fudal]

It's not democracys fault that people are dumb.

Come to Scandinavia. Pick any country and you're better off than being in the states. We all enjoy far more liberty, freedom and equality than most of the world, and easily more than the US.

Each of the Scandinavian countries are equal to a single state in land mass and population. The number of people that are ignorant about the actual differences is astounding. The state income tax rate is less than 8%, the top federal rate is 39% for a maximum of 47% before any deductions, and generally around 8% sales taxes. Whereas in Denmark [ chosen for comparative purposes] you pay up to 65% income tax, 8% social services taxes, and a 25% sales tax (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/denmark/sales-tax-rate). All of this for you to support a population of less than 6 million people, 87% of whom live in major urban centers.

Tell us again how we should manage the governance of 340 million people spread over an area 75 times larger than your country?

[StayTuned]

Agreed. It also leads to oppression like we saw with Stalin and Hitler. And even now in N. Korea.

Which ultimately ends with Erdogan and the current situation in Turkey. They didn't have a fair, democratic vote. They had a vote where the No fraction was under heavy attack, slandered, silenced and imprisoned. You had people living outside of Turkey swaying the results in a country they don't even primarily (or at all) live in.

It was only democratic in the sense that you were "allowed" a choice.

[Ghostpanther]

But what's the point of it if your vote doesn't just works against your opposition but also against you?

You are hurting yourself with your vote because the people you are voting for are not sincere.

You have a manipulated majority that doesn't even understand what the consequences of their actions are.

You have to understand that not to vote is worse than not voting. At least you can say you had some impact even if it was only a small fraction when you did vote. It is one of the few exercises of our rights we have in a democracy.

[StayTuned]

Also, who are you to say the majority was manipulated? They exerted their free will. That is the opposite of manipulation.

I promise you no more wars. You vote for me. First thing I do is to start two new wars. Does that sound familiar?
I promise you less bureaucracy and more self governance. You vote for me. Now you have to sign individual trade/tax deals for all your goods with all countries that buy from you. Does that sound familiar?

Sorry, but manipulation is very easy to see once you dissect promises vs. actions.

Populism and media manipulation are the cancer of informed, democratic voting processes.

[mickybrighteyes]

So we have to live by the tyranny of the stupid majority, is that what you are trying to say?

Yup.

And it's not changing anytime soon.

[Super Kami Dende]

You can't have a proper democracy with a 2 Party system like America does. There are far to many inbetween Voters that have to take the large amounts of shit policies regardless of the side they want.

I lean largely left, but the DNC in America is full of shit to me. The Republicans are also full of shit to me. With these systems it usually comes down to 1 or 2 Largely important issues people choose a side for and have to take the rest of the shit with them.

[StayTuned]

You have to understand that not to vote is worse than not voting. At least you can say you had some impact even if it was only a small fraction when you did vote. It is one of the few exercises of our rights we have in a democracy.

You should always vote. If you don't vote, it's the same as if you voted for the winner. The problem is that we don't have the option of "all is shit, give me new options".

[mickybrighteyes]

There is no such thing as tyranny of the majority. If the majority decides, the majority is in the right and you have to respect that. Wether you disagree or not. Your voice is not worth more than anyone else's.

You have a vote, you have the freedom to inform yourself and you have the power to influence those around your sphere.

That is democracy and that is fair.

And believe me, the alternatives, where you try to forcibly silence people instead of letting them have a voice, leads to war.

Socrates would like to share an opinion on that...

[downnola]

"democracy", you keep using that word. If you're talking about the US, we are not now, nor have we ever been a democracy. We are a democratic republic, which is an important distinction. It was in fact created, because it was assumed the voters were idiots who didn't know what was going on.

A statement like, "The U.S. is not a democracy; it's a democratic republic." is a distinction without a difference. Democracies, like other classes of government, vary in structure and implementation. But variations aren't enough to negate the fact that they're still democracies. When the U.S. Government claims it's authority from a source other than the constitution (ie. the consent of the governed), then it would be correct to say the U.S. is no longer a democracy.