How to lead a pug group in heroic Nighthold?

[Avikur]

I am not able to commit to a raiding guild due to real life comments, I'm never sure from one day to the next when I will be able to log on. I enjoy raiding so I join pug groups each week, the problem with this is they tend to fail - a lot! Mainly because the leaders go on ilvl alone and don't bother looking at things like do they have previous experience, gems, enchants etc.

I've decided I'd like to set my own pug groups up, my main is a ilvl 900 MM hunter and between him and my alt Warlock I have 10/10 progress in heroic so should I set the ilvl requirement at 900 for HC NH?

What's the quickest and easiest way to check people's progress and gear?

Which tanks and healers are best to go with?

Any specs I should stack or avoid?

Is 2-4-14 the best setup?

I know the tactics for each fight from a ranged DPS point of view, but I'm not sure on where to set melee and tank markers, and if I need to give any other instructions, such as making groups etc, like on star, how many groups should I make and do I just put all ranged together etc?

Any other tips or advice for leading a pug raid?

[Deleted]

I've decided I'd like to set my own pug groups up, my main is a ilvl 900 MM hunter and between him and my alt Warlock I have 10/10 progress in heroic so should I set the ilvl requirement at 900 for HC NH?

900 is way too high for heroic NH, if you are checking people's armory etc. for enchants and gems, 880-ish is fine enough.

What's the quickest and easiest way to check people's progress and gear?

Wow armory

Any specs I should stack or avoid?

No, you don't need perfect class composition for heroic. If you want easy tankhealing get paladin tanks, and don't get BrM tanks cause you don't know what they will be like in a pug (a good brewmaster is really good, a bad brewmaster is really bad, the difference is way more huge than with other tanks).
Make sure you have a good composition of ranged/melee (e.g. not 12 melee and 2 ranged dps) and try to get at least 1 of each of resto shammy, resto druid and holy priest in your healer team for easy times.

Is 2-4-14 the best setup?

Best for what? Many of the fights are easier with bigger groups, so 2-4-12 will give you an easier time than 2-3-9. On the other hand more people is bigger chance someone will fuck up.

I know the tactics for each fight from a ranged DPS point of view, but I'm not sure on where to set melee and tank markers, and if I need to give any other instructions, such as making groups etc, like on star, how many groups should I make and do I just put all ranged together etc?

Check guides for eahc role on Icy Veins or watch Fatboss videos.

Any other tips or advice for leading a pug raid?

Expect a lot of work for no reward beyond what you would normally get from a raid. People shittalking, people randomly leaving your raid, rebuilding half your group if you wipe even once. Etc.

If you are serious enough about the thing, make a raid on openraid.org and try to get a regular group together. Or join one of the excellent regular raids alreayd present there.

[Stanislav]

warcraftlog people, you would be surprised how many people with achiv and 900+ parse grey.

you got to be firm but fair, someone says GOGOGOG you call them out on it, someone face pulls on purpose you boot them, tank doesnt listen to your strat you kick them mid boss.

best runs i ever had i had to be like hitler, you cant be lax because people will start fucking around.

some advice i can give you is never invite groups of people in the LFG tool, they can be 920ilvl healer tank and dps and they will still ruin your run by not following orders. also if one of them leaves or needs to be booted you lose all 3.

dont let people "suggest" invites, have everyone apply and check everyone.


just think about how your raid leader in a guild makes 19 other people listen to him and respect him, and am up the intensity because in a pug you mos likely will have alot of people who dont give a fuck.

[Deleted]

What's the quickest and easiest way to check people's progress and gear?

wowprogress. Gives you accurate information about their gear and kills, with dates of each first kill. There is no better progress measure.

Which tanks and healers are best to go with?
Any specs I should stack or avoid?

For Heroic, this is completely irrelevant.

Is 2-4-14 the best setup?

More people is generally easier. 2/2/6 is far more difficult then any other comp. I usually run 2/3/9, but some people prefer 2/4/14, and some even a full 35ppl raid. it doesn#t really matter as long as you don't go 10 ppl (most abilities don't scale well below 2/3/9).

I know the tactics for each fight from a ranged DPS point of view, but I'm not sure on where to set melee and tank markers, and if I need to give any other instructions, such as making groups etc, like on star, how many groups should I make and do I just put all ranged together etc?

Read guides. Wowhead/FatBoss TV are good. This is knowledge a raid leader should definitely have if the group wants to succeed.

Any other tips or advice for leading a pug raid?

Communicate clearly. Easy, simple english sentences. Be concise. Don't use "maybe, could, might". Your word rules the raid. if you tell person X to do X, you expect them to do it. Period. No discussions. You lead, not 5 other people who all have different views on what needs to be done. have a strategy prepared, stick to the strategy you picked. There is nothing worse then 5 people discussing 5 different tactics. In the end, nobody will know what to do.

If you want to invest in some light reading, get some military command tactics book, preferably about/from Carl von Clausewitz (he was a prussian general). Its gold for raid, especially PUGs.

[Avikur]

Thanks, some really good advice, I definitely agree a raid leader needs to know the fights, i'll check out some of the sites you mentioned, nothing worse than a leader who doesn't know what to do, hasn't done the raid themselves before or isn't clear or decisive. I'm so fed up of getting into groups just for it to fall apart after a few bosses because the raid leader hasn't picked the right people and has just seen a high ilvl and gone with it, i'd rather spend extra time getting good skilled players that will make it a fast smooth run. Maybe I'll start off setting up some normal runs to get a feel for leading a raid first.

[gdr441]

Lol nowadays you see so many stupid groupfinder leaders demanding 890 normal NH & 900+ for Heroic, its so pathetic you lose interest in pugging alts. :-/

[effs]

Lol nowadays you see so many stupid groupfinder leaders demanding 890 normal NH & 900+ for Heroic, its so pathetic you lose interest in pugging alts. :-/

Even then there's no guarantee you'll get invited, with an ilvl of over 900.

[wowaccounttom]

best you can do to lead one is to find people already doing that content and tell them to not die to stupid mechanics or they get kicked

[Sencha]

Lol nowadays you see so many stupid groupfinder leaders demanding 890 normal NH & 900+ for Heroic, its so pathetic you lose interest in pugging alts. :-/

Be raid leader then.

[Leadsop]

Best way is the usual way - stack the raid with 910+ guildies, list in Group Finder 905+ ONLY and MUST LINK AOTC, demand that people get in your Discord to listen to you broadcast emo music and tell inside jokes to your guildies, and then kick every single person who someone whispers to you about because they messed up a mechanic.

It's easy.

[Deleted]

best you can do to lead one is to find people already doing that content and tell them to not die to stupid mechanics or they get kicked

Thats the best strategy for failing.

If I see groups that have "Failers will be kicked" or something in the title or decsirption, I avoid it like the plague. because in almost every case, the atmopshere will be super toxic and the raid not kill Gul'dan.

Kicking people who clearly can not do the fights is something that needs to be done. Everyone knows that. You don't need to adverstise it, except if you want to look like a dick. I have an ilvl 900+ tank and have done some fights on mythic. my guild clears NH HC in 1 1/2 hours. When I'm not there for the guild raid and have to pug NH, I won't join groups that have such things in the title. I want to have a decent run, not some fukfest where people are constantly accused, terrified and kicked.

I don't think you need to know the fight outside your role. If something's going wrong don't be afraid to ask others in the group. Over time you'll learn to diagnose other issues naturally.

Thats the best way to look uninformed and weak. people will start to discuss stuff, and you get several people telling several different things. In the best case, thats only a distraction and slows you down, in the worst case it really hurts the run.

Leader not knowing their shit causes friction. Avoid friction. Be clear, concise and decisive, and have the knowledge to back your decisions up. Period.

[Heathy]

pugging heroic is going to be pretty painful at the moment i think because its current content for a lot of ppl so, if they are joining your pug they are either 1) not actually raiding and probably don't really know what to do or 2) they are alts. neither of these things really inspire confidence.

I think it only really gets tricky at spellblade, you don't want to overlap the fire elementals or that'll probably be a wipe so, good spacing on the markers for dropping them apart. think its 6 yards you can use dbm range checker to set them up and when ppl get charged they can just run over to a mark and wait for the detonate.

starcaller 2 groups and hugging

botanist 2 adds vs 1 in normal, everyone needs to really need to be aware of where they are and kill them or run away from them asap.

tichondrius, runes need to be popped as soon as ppl are over 75% or so. try to just get rid of them and top everyone off again. even if that means running them into melee.

the rest are pretty much the same as they are in normal except there is just more overall damage, elisande does double orb rings gul'dan has demon adds that have to be interrupted. oh yeah the fel bonds on gul'dan can be brutal when they are empowered if your not in the centre you'll get flung off the platform.

tanks and healers should really know what to do, I heal and each fight plays out slightly differently each time, different ppl take damage, you just react to it i've done a bunch of heroic clears now and i think i know when damage is coming on all the fights and am just ready for it, there isn't really any specific healer tactics that i know of beyond, heal, don't stand in fire and move to the marker when your the bomb. or in the case of tichondrius, if there is no one left on your side, run into melee with the rune, but not right before swarm or echoes of the void because that will one shot random ppl. if you take runes into echoes of the void just don't hug the pillar, LOS the boss, but keep the rune until it ends, then pop it.

hope it helps

[SoLoR1]

Lol nowadays you see so many stupid groupfinder leaders demanding 890 normal NH & 900+ for Heroic, its so pathetic you lose interest in pugging alts. :-/

Well i joined one of those 905+ group for heroic NH.... it was done in under 1h30 with 0 wipes and barely anyone died, unless he was fooling around. Also not like its hard to get alts above 900 anyway... i usually join guild runs with "bad" geared alts and with my main/good geared alt this 900-905+ groups

[Ealyssa]

I usually do 2-3 PUG in heroic every week :

-nobody under 905. Don't care about what randoms say here. They never started a pug cleaning HM. People are terrible at this game and now even badies can reach 900 by being carried.

-armory people for multiple kills. Don't be fooled by the achievement. Again too much people were carried on Guldan. I even saw a PUG wiping for more than an hour on Guldan when every single character was curved. Helped a friend finishing it, as I'm a tank, would have left way sooner. Boss didn't die in the end.

-Avoid leading too much actually. People should now what to do. Keep it to the basics (which side for what on Tich, normal/russian skorp, etc.)

-1 warning and then kick. For everyone.

[HappyLuckBox]

I say this everytime. Check their logs. grab anybody who parses purple or higher. INSTANT grab anybody who has multiple gold parses. AVOID blue parses or lower.

The other method is to use wowprogress, but this method doesn't actually tell you how GOOD a player is, just how experienced they are, which doesnt necesarilly translate to sucess in a pug because it can just mean the guy is in a guild that carries him frequently.


Everytime I have joined a pug that said checking logs, it has always been a one shot group with no hassle no issues. Groups tha tuse wowprogress are hit or miss. Groups that check for aotc in the description are usually fail.

slight tangent:
How great/convenient would it be if wArcraftlogs would release an addon that quickly showed you the performance/rankings of players who queue for yor groups when you hover over their name?

[Matthias]

At this point you really shouldn't even need to know the strats in and out, if you understand them from one perspective.

I always find the best pugs on Tuesday or Wednesday at peak time. This is when everyone logs on to knock NH out on their mains. Check peoples logs, more important then AoTC imo. Someone said don't 900 is too high and go for 880. Lol, don't be absurd, you go as low as 880 only if your running on a Monday, early in the weak be draconian and demand 895, but make sure they parse as such.

[sociald1077]

get a group from openraid and stop worrying. No need to raid lead if you are not certain you want to

Unfortunately OpenRaid seems to be dying. It was so good in MoP, and usefull during WoD, but now there are very few raids listed.
Sad day.

[Deleted]

So far people explain you how to build pug group. I will tell you my view on how to lead a pug group.

For starters - act like leader.
Use names - assign specific people do a specific job and do it clearly. Do not be afraid to use /rw.
Hard statements - "When boss do X We do Y!". Do not use words like "if", "might", or wording like "can someone do X" etc, it will make you look weak.
It is your group therefore - your rules. Hiss anyone who try to impose his way of doing the encounter. Demand explanation of why people failed. Even if you kill the boss, if the person can't give you a good excuse he is worth the replacement.
Also cut off right away abusing and passive aggression acts. I would add to keep an eye of rolling items. You should be the arbiter if some fighting over items come, liek it or not. But this is optional, most pug leaders I have encountered do not bother with this

And last but not least - do not be afraid to kick/replace people. Noone is irreplaceable.

[Banard]

Is 2-4-14 the best setup?

People who think some ratio below 30 people is the best set up are very "special" people. I love at 907 ilevel when i click on a group and get this whisper ..sorry we are full when they have less then 30 people.

its moronic....you want to start leading a good group? take 30...and create a wait list....after you kill the first boss look at the logs...kick lowest heals/dps and grab of the WL. Etc etc etc..

I argued once with a guy who was 2,3,9 was the best..cant take more...he invited me and i did the same dps as 2 of the people in his raid and needed very little heals....told him he was right guess he was full and left.

Some weird ideas floating around out there...

here is a thought...blizzard nerfed some bosses because they WHERE MORE DIFFICULT WITH A SMALLER GROUP...max out that raid.

[melodramocracy]

Be elitist while underperforming yourself. Make sure to kick low DPS when your tanks don't execute properly. Only then will you fit the bill of a proper pug raid lead.