How democratic is a democracy when...

[Artaxerxes]

Also the right to protect oneself and resist tyranny. Or do you still believe all your politicians are as clean and pure as fresh snow?

Unbelievable, you think your small arms are any use against today's weapons? What are you going to do, shoot down a MOAB when its dropped on you?

How is it Americans can sometimes possess less intelligence than the homo erectus?

[Hammerfest]

Good thing the US isn't a democracy. (It's a federal republic.)

[Mihalik]

You either deal with millions of retards voting, or one retard with unlimited power in charge. No system is perfect.

Perfect, no. A better alternative, yes. Technocratic democracy. Tying the vote for academic and professional attainment or to political understanding (qualifying for a vote via a civics/current events test).

[Sunseeker]

Perfect, no. A better alternative, yes. Technocratic democracy. Tying the vote for academic and professional attainment or to political understanding (qualifying for a vote via a civics/current events test).

A functional technocracy or meritocracy wouldn't rely on such a flawed system of voting where you have to hope the smart people run for the positions they're qualified for, and hope the population is smart enough (by test or whatever measure) to realize how qualified they are.

[Mihalik]

At some point you realize idealism doesn't make the world turn and start voting for pragmatism. That's how democracy works. And you can't assume the majority is stupid or ill-informed. That's just a panacea for your own ego and a false one at that. Pragmatism is what is always going to ultimately win because people just want to live their lives mostly free of hardship.

As far back as Socrates that has been shown to be not true. Democracies especially in the face of adversity tend to abandon common sense and flock to the most outrageous demagogues, with the biggest hollow promises. It's the main weakness of democracy.

[falagar112]

Our version of "democracy" has little to do with actual democracy as it was envisioned by the ancient greeks.

The ostracizing system they had would have prevented people like Trump/Wilders/Le Pen to win elections, and they had systems in place to discourage large multinationals (yes, even back then) - you can't call our political system a democracy when we only copied a few parts of it and ignored the rest.

So yes, call it what you want, but no country in the world today has a democracy as envisioned by those that created the concept.

[Xirrohon]

the people voting don't have the full picture, are being lied to, have to live with political omissions and are generally subject to one sided election campaigns?

How fair is a democracy when you have a deeply split country where the split between two camps is roughly 50/50, and the last % are swayed through false promises, easy solutions and bravado?

What is a democracy worth if people are that easy to manipulate and political parties and their agendas are that hard to see through?

What is the point of a democracy when your candidates can promise you one thing, and then upon being elected have a 180° turnaround without any repercussions?

Why is it that politics is more of a self serving institution, instead of being what it's supposed to be - the extended arm of the nation.

Where the fuck is benevolence, secularism, humanism? They seem to be running away.

fml I shouldn't be smoking this late, but holy shit the world has become such a depressing place. I see shitlords as head of states whichever way I turn.

Its been this way for a very long time. Trump has just made us more aware of it.

[Z-Man]

So we have to live by the tyranny of the stupid majority, is that what you are trying to say?

Fortunately, the founders put the Electoral College in place to prevent the people from electing an unqualified candidate.

[StayTuned]

Fortunately, the founders put the Electoral College in place to prevent the people from electing an unqualified candidate.

*cough cough*, not everyone lives in the USA.

[Tierbook]

Unbelievable, you think your small arms are any use against today's weapons? What are you going to do, shoot down a MOAB when its dropped on you?

How is it Americans can sometimes possess less intelligence than the homo erectus?

Quantity has a quality all it's own.

[Forgettable]

Indeed OP. We should implement benevolent dictators everywhere, immediately! It's for the good of the people.

[Knolan]

Your languages are really hard to learn and your climate is quite cold. But I get the feeling that exactly this cold climate and your complicated language make you superior.

But in all honesty, "people are dumb" is a cop out. After all, a democracy is only good if the country itself doesn't suffer from the decisions of a majority. From Brexit, Trump and Erdogan, it is very obvious that the world has a major problem: Secular, younger progressives VS. religious, older conservatives. The former are usually city dwellers with well paid jobs, the latter are usually countryside residents with low wage jobs. Fuck me if I'm in the wrong here.

The leaders and ideologues however are usually the same. Loads of bravado, false promises and gangsta tactics.

Media manipulation is cancer.

For profit journalism is cancer.

Honestly, this kind of thinking is the real cancer. The thing is, people think differently than you and that does not imply ignorance. I also like how you think that you and people like you are immune to manipulation and lies.

ANTIFA is made almost exclusively of secular, younger progressives, that doesn't make them right. In case of Brexit, those old, religious conservatives have been or directly payed the price of a war that was fought to keep their sovereignty, for them giving it up is the most stupid idea ever, and they do have a point.

I know it is hard, but put yourself in the other people's shoes, do you think America is better today for someone who wanted to finish high school, get a factory job and lead a simple life, dedicated to work and family? In their perception it isn't and they will use their right to vote to try and change that. And most important of all, a net gain of economy doesn't not necessarily benefit those people.

[Allybeboba]

It's not democracys fault that people are dumb.

Come to Scandinavia. Pick any country and you're better off than being in the states. We all enjoy far more liberty, freedom and equality than most of the world, and easily more than the US.

Except in many European countries your liberties and freedoms is are controlled by the government for the sake of perceived safety.
We have a saying here in the states. "Those who can give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". We also say, "Those who deny freedom for others do not deserve it themselves."
Have a wonderful day.

[Z-Man]

*cough cough*, not everyone lives in the USA.

Not yet...

[Allybeboba]

I assume you're a Trump supporter. Only a Trump supporter would be really upset about broken promises at this time. What is it you are unhappy about? Trump has pushed action on the wall, he's signed a drain a swamp law that bars politicians from lobbying for a number of years after they leave office, he created a new rule that for every new spending item a bureaucracy asks for, they must also recommend 2 to be cut. Gorsch to the supreme court. He's against TPP. There's a lot of accomplishments there in his first 100 days. He didn't get everything but honestly he got quite a lot.

Kek...
I see plenty of people on both sides of the political spectrum quite upset at him. The strangest of all are the ones that are most verbal are the ones that can't even vote in an US election.

- - - Updated - - -

The first saying was actually Franklin criticizing what was essentially privatization at the expense of government authority, but hey whatever, nobody else cares when they use it so why should you

They were both quotes from his memoirs.

[Ravenblade]

I am sticking with Plato here and since the problems which led to the fall of the Attic democracy seem to resurface these days I think it is important to remember what he once stated about democracy. He didn't believe in democracy to function permanently because people usually do not educate themselves about the matters at hand but rather get influenced by educated people with personal agendas who tell these people what actually matters and how much. He also described the effect of the lack of said education in his allegory of the cave which kind of describes why facts even if known are denied on grounds of incomprehensibility. The effects he described as anarchic society which leaves little unity but huge divisions leading to excesses and extremes leading to a complete dismantling of ochlocratic societies where the most evil tyrants of all will ultimately assume the reigns and using the cries for extreme levels of liberty to create extreme levels of slavery and tyranny. It has happened once and as it seems is going to happen again since only a few really want democracy to actually survive.

[StayTuned]

Honestly, this kind of thinking is the real cancer. The thing is, people think differently than you and that does not imply ignorance. I also like how you think that you and people like you are immune to manipulation and lies.

ANTIFA is made almost exclusively of secular, younger progressives, that doesn't make them right. In case of Brexit, those old, religious conservatives have been or directly payed the price of a war that was fought to keep their sovereignty, for them giving it up is the most stupid idea ever, and they do have a point.

I know it is hard, but put yourself in the other people's shoes, do you think America is better today for someone who wanted to finish high school, get a factory job and lead a simple life, dedicated to work and family? In their perception it isn't and they will use their right to vote to try and change that. And most important of all, a net gain of economy doesn't not necessarily benefit those people.

You misunderstand.

I can put myself in their shoes without a single problem. The issue is that those whom they voted for will do nothing to make their lives better.

[petej0]

You misunderstand.

I can put myself in their shoes without a single problem. The issue is that those whom they voted for will do nothing to make their lives better.

Politicians care about Power and their Party. That isnt a problem with Democracy, that is a problem with people in power.

[Deleted]

Yes, thats the quint essence of every of your postings.

Do you actually have to add something useful to the discussion? Or is discrediting human right activists any kind of helpful to the discussion about democracy?

Antifa aren't human rights activists, they're extremist loonies.

[Tico]

Very good questions to think about.