AOTC should be rewarded at the end of a patch.

[Maldehv]

Normal Gul'dan group 915+ item level required!!

[Baelic]

Anyone struggling to find a group cause of elitist jerkbags needs to go look at Perky Pugs, the group was born out of the #friendshipmoose campaign near the end of WoD.

Their discord is here

[gonzajd777]

Nothing is more fustrating than normal/heroic groups asking for AOTC, so I gotta bust out the fake achievement addon and hope they don't armory me.

As a raider who has every AOTC up to NH, been in mythic guilds, hardcore guilds. The lot. Ilvl should matter AOTC should not.

Proposal. Award AOTC like a PVP achivement. At the end of the raid patch. Fixes the problem right-out.

First of all, and its just my opinion... LFG should not exist, at least no for heroic and mythic raid.
With this tool people it is not interested in get into a raid group.

on the other hand Ilvl means nothing... today more than ever soo... with AOTC RL has a filter that separate shit who can not handle a mech and cant carry his ass from good players.

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Frankly, atoc is a very poor judge anyway. I was in an atoc group where we had people standing on the tanks, not doing the chain correctly, not bursting down the inquisitor. Ilvl is always the best judge in a group, All you're really doing is dramatically reducing your sample of players to pick from.

no its not dude, you know a shit... just an example Arms warrior could have 910 ilvl but if the gear is shit from world quest and mytic+ with no enough mastery
his dps will be shit... reeeeally shit, tanks are another fucking good example... ilvl means NOTHING...

every fucking retarded dum with good enough time to play can easly get a very high ilvl..

best criteria for RL is AOTC (not ATOC dude) and armory too see how many kills has on guldan... stop your pathetic QQ and create your own pug, select ppl for ILVL and send me a PM when you kill Hc Gul'dan

[melodramocracy]

I said that I raid lead this, and was higher than most of the dpsers, who had much higher ilvl. I made no mistakes across the entire run of the 10 bosses. I didn't get lucky with drops, I ran a lot of M+ 10 or higher in order to get this gear. Part of my ilvl upgrades was a second legendary, and upgrading my first legendary from 910 to 940.

TLDR: You lack the brain capacity to understand what 'carry' means.

You went up 15 ilvls in 7 days per your own posting, demanded AOTC for a pug when you didn't have it yourself. I stand by my comments.

[Vaerys]

Yeah ilvl. I imagine most people in 900+ know what they are doing as well as, if not better than someone with a heroic guldan kill.

Having killed the boss doesn't mean anything either. You could have bought a kill or been utter garbage and got carried. If anything ilvl means a bit more since ilvl would mean you at least have kills on other bosses.

If all of their experience is speedrunning tough Mythic+, then I imagine they could learn the Gul'dan fight easily enough, but they would probably still make a few mistakes their first few times.

Problem with pugs is they're uncoordinated mess, people don't communicate, don't discuss tactics, most people lie or stay silent when they don't know jack squat so they don't get kicked, and just try to do "leet dps" instead of mechanics, so you usually wipe to stupid shit like no one killing eyes on gul'dan or no one soaking souls. And "raid leaders" in pugs rarely hold people accountable for not doing mechanics, usually they only whine at people who did low dps or died, so ofc everyone tries to skip doing mechanics so they don't die and don't lose dps... Catch 22.

This is why I like to post logs that reflect mechanics, like damage on adds that need to die fast, or interrupts.

You know it's funny, I would legitly have better luck back in SoO with less geared people on Garrosh than people in massive heroic gear. To the point that for the heirloom farms I would avoid getting anyone above 455 (I think that's what it was) Because for some reason, despite their gear, they sucked.

Around 550 was what you would need to pull your weight in flex difficulty.

You went up 15 ilvls in 7 days per your own posting, demanded AOTC for a pug when you didn't have it yourself. I stand by my comments.

Gaining item levels comes just from running a lot of mythic+ without particular good luck. The more luck, the less you would need to run, and he already said he ran a lot.

[Soluna]

You went up 15 ilvls in 7 days per your own posting, demanded AOTC for a pug when you didn't have it yourself. I stand by my comments.

What part of 'I run a lot of M+ 10 or higher in order to get this gear' is it that you don't understand?

And I demand AotC from the people joining my run, because I spent 2 whole hours looking at videos to understand all mechanics of Gul'dan HC exactly, and made many notes about it. Not to mention that I did normal Gul'dan quite a few times by joining random pugs and trying to dodge all mechanics first hard (of course, some mechanics were missing, like Dreadlord summon) but it wasn't difficult to fight against that. I was nearly 100% sure that I could avoid everything on Gul'dan HC, and the only way I can reliably find people of similar confidence in the fight was to ask for people with curve.

What's so wrong with that? If I can get a group of curved people, and play as good or better than them, then it's not a boost at all. But sure, stay under your rock and don't accept me, not because of lack of skill, but just because I didn't have an achievement that you see as something more than what it truly is, a small stepping stone.

[melodramocracy]

What part of 'I run a lot of M+ 10 or higher in order to get this gear' is it that you don't understand?

And I demand AotC from the people joining my run, because I spent 2 whole hours looking at videos to understand all mechanics of Gul'dan HC exactly, and made many notes about it. Not to mention that I did normal Gul'dan quite a few times by joining random pugs and trying to dodge all mechanics first hard (of course, some mechanics were missing, like Dreadlord summon) but it wasn't difficult to fight against that. I was nearly 100% sure that I could avoid everything on Gul'dan HC, and the only way I can reliably find people of similar confidence in the fight was to ask for people with curve.

What's so wrong with that? If I can get a group of curved people, and play as good or better than them, then it's not a boost at all. But sure, stay under your rock and don't accept me, not because of lack of skill, but just because I didn't have an achievement that you see as something more than what it truly is, a small stepping stone.

Nothing's "wrong" with it at all. Let me ask you, now that you have the achievement, do you bring along folks that don't have it?

[david0925]

Anyone struggling to find a group cause of elitist jerkbags needs to go look at Perky Pugs, the group was born out of the #friendshipmoose campaign near the end of WoD.

Their discord is here

People are elitist jerkbags because they want to quality control their group? Nice bait.

Making arguments like "oh you may not have earned your achievement" doesn't mean anything. People can buy 10/10m characters too. There is no point in making this kind of stipulation because it goes both ways for every single criterion you can use to filter people, and AoTC is simply the easiest way to do an initial screening.

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Nothing's "wrong" with it at all. Let me ask you, now that you have the achievement, do you bring along folks that don't have it?

of course you do. Everyone are nice and assume the best in everyone for making their group when they just have to type on MMO.]

-------

I personally avoid pugging as much as possible, but I just find it amusing that people that can't get AoTC tries to get into an AoTC group. If you are as good as people that earned them then go earn them. If you are a super 20/20m raider on an alt then just tell the RL to armory your main. Every time people make arguments like "im a good player i just happen to not have this achievement that groups ask for", is just silly.

[Deja Thoris]

I made no mistakes across the entire run of the 10 bosses.

Everybody makes mistakes. All this shows is you lack objectivity and the ability to self critique.

[antelope591]

Requirements wouldnt need to be so harsh if people put in the bare minimum into their class. Take today for example I took a chance on a 890+ AOTC group and sure enough Im doing 800k while half the raid is doing 400k or less and the group falls apart on tich. I find you have to get to 905+ groups before you get any type of consistency. For Gul'Dan I wouldnt dream of joining anything less than 900.

[david0925]

"Requirement" won't be met if too few people can meet them.

AoTC is everywhere because groups can sell them literally every 15 minutes. Ilvl is crazily inflated because Blizzard doesn't know how to control their own system with WF/TF (player power jump across tiers/patches has never been remotely as bad as it has been in legion). The reality is simply if I can fill a group of 15-20 people with AoTC when I am a pug leader, it will take me much more to consider someone without (of course you can link me relevant information otherwise), and if I can fill a raid with with 900+ people, I won't invite that 880 unless there is a compelling reason, which people are free to provide.

I don't know why people love talking about the hypothetical situation of a godly player that may not have AoTC or is only at 870. Sure that can happen. So go get your gear from lesser bosses or get AoTC elsewhere and come back and show your godliness.

[Lord Pebbleton]

First of all, and its just my opinion... LFG should not exist, at least no for heroic and mythic raid.
With this tool people it is not interested in get into a raid group.

on the other hand Ilvl means nothing... today more than ever soo... with AOTC RL has a filter that separate shit who can not handle a mech and cant carry his ass from good players.

You could argue that ilvl is a bad criteria since, as you said, it doesn't exactly reflect one's skill. But I believe that saying it means nothing is quite of a stretch.
If I were to lead a pug and fill it with people I don't know, I would go for those with high ilvl + Curve, because I don't want to take my chances by accepting people that don't come near those standards. Sure, they might be the best players in the world, but I would have no idea about that, and I'd be too pressed on to form a group to go check everyone on armory.

All in all, ilvl does matter for pugging purposes. If I have ilvl900 and AotC, they're gonna pick me. If I die stupidly, they will replace me with another guy of similar ilvl and AotC before thinking "Maybe this ilvl880 guy will perform better than a 900".

EDIT: Also, as someone else previously pointed out, the dps pool is so large that requirements for pugs are able to skyrocket and become unreasonable. That's not a game flaw, it's players'.

[david0925]

If you really want to quality control your group I guess the best way is to look at logs, but there are issues involved with that too. In the end every filter method has holes in it and you are just picking the most effective way of filtering people.

AoTC is not foolproof; not by a long shot, but if I don't want to take 10+ minutes to make a group it would be my go to method with a ilvl requirement.

[Baelic]

People are elitist jerkbags because they want to quality control their group? Nice bait.

Making arguments like "oh you may not have earned your achievement" doesn't mean anything. People can buy 10/10m characters too. There is no point in making this kind of stipulation because it goes both ways for every single criterion you can use to filter people, and AoTC is simply the easiest way to do an initial screening.

That makes no sense. You state that AoTC screening is "easy" but yet at the same time state how it's easily circumvented. Which would implying that the notion of screening at all is pointless. There's nothing wrong with quality controlling your group, but using a metric that literally requires them to have already done the content (I need experience to get a job, but I don't have experience) is asinine at best in my eyes.

Yet people still do it, and I will still call them elitist jerks for doing it. Fuck, I even gave a legit solution for how to avoid such things.

[waysted]

Why? AOTC is pretty much proof that the player knows the fights. It really sucks when someone doesn't know a certain mechanic and dies/wipes the raid.

[Soluna]

Nothing's "wrong" with it at all. Let me ask you, now that you have the achievement, do you bring along folks that don't have it?

Depends on how much time I have available. If, due to real life circumstances, I can't kill Gul'dan HC until tuesday, I will of course make a run demanding curve to be done fast. Same if I want to just get over with it at any point of the week due to real life responsibilities. But, if I have a lot of time in my hands, I usually ask for people to tell me what they know of the fight, and by that ,I mean actual player placement depending on their specc, how many are required for a specific mechanic to be countered, etc. And if their answers are satisfactory, then I take them. I really like helping other people getting curve (did that a lot in EN, although that was a lot easier), but sometimes, if you bring too many non-curved people, you see everyone dying like flies to Gul'dan's beam in P1 and everyone leaves while the encounter is still going on lol.

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Everybody makes mistakes. All this shows is you lack objectivity and the ability to self critique.

-.- Yeah, but I made no critical mistakes that costed my character's life, the group's life, I executed all the mechanics properly, and did 600-800k dps depending on the fights that mattered (Gul'dan/Elisande/etc). And if you tell me 'Hurr durr 600-800k dps is too low scrub git gud - Well, it didn't seem like the other curved people, with 5-10 ilvls higher than me, could do much more dps. I also play destro, not FotM frost mages or DH or fury warrs.

Edit: If that gets you on at nights, I used Unending resolve to go through one of the rings during Elisande

[Deja Thoris]

-.- Yeah, but I made no critical mistakes that costed my character's life, the group's life, I executed all the mechanics properly, and did 600-800k dps depending on the fights that mattered (Gul'dan/Elisande/etc). And if you tell me 'Hurr durr 600-800k dps is too low scrub git gud - Well, it didn't seem like the other curved people, with 5-10 ilvls higher than me, could do much more dps. I also play destro, not FotM frost mages or DH or fury warrs.

Edit: If that gets you on at nights, I used Unending resolve to go through one of the rings during Elisande

Link logs or I'll tell you you're full of shit.

Actually, I'll do it now, I know you won't link logs.

[Soluna]

Link logs or I'll tell you you're full of shit.

Actually, I'll do it now, I know you won't link logs.

First of all, I'd rather not give logs as I don't want everyone to know my character's name in the game (provided anyone has logged the fight and I could even somehow, track any of the 15-16 other people that did Gul'dan with me and are from different realms), second, I don't need to prove anything and third and most important, my laptop can barely handle with 14-15 fps Gul'dan HC with everything aside from projected textures to 1, due to me studying abroad, I am not some rich boy to either move my gaming pc from my home country, or to buy a new one. Using a logs program in the background would be the equivalent of killing my pc intentionally.

Anyway, all this started because I was telling the OP to man up and do what I did. Then some retard (maybe it's you, cba to check), started talking about me getting carried. And if you think that 600-800k is not achievable by havocing dreadlord+gul'dan or empowered eye+gul'dan, or FnB spam during eyes of gul'dan spawns with legendary cape and wrists for destro, then you either don't know the class, or you are just too thick to accept it. Or you are surrounded by shit warlocks, or affli ones cause that's the new lock FotM. It's your fault if you don't believe it, and if you keep taunting me I will reply no further, simply because I don't need to prove anything to you, I got my curve 8)

Edit: If by mistakes, you meant something like me not performing at 97 percentile or something with WoL.... well I can't do that, but I've been averaging a 85-93 for all EN Mythic fights. I am pretty sure Gul'dan was a 78 at least though. Not so good, but I kept missing chaos bolt windows, a few secs of havoc here and there, or one of the worst things, I couldn't use the extra action button for most of the fight because the DBM timers were in front of it, and my laptop screen isn't big enough for them not to overlap with said button.

[furiousferret]

At 899 ilvl and no AotC I may as well be a leper.

Last week we got him down to under 2% twice, and we're running it tonight. Grinded like crazy and my dps is up 50k in the sims, and improved my rotation. The problem is half the guild burned out so we're losing people and only a few of us are actively trying to improve our dps, the rest just show up. I don't blame them (its the natural order of this game) but it does make things harder. I could see myself burning out after all the work I did the past few weeks (I started raiding in late March).

AotC has become my white whale, and hopefully that ends tonight. I'm too prideful to pay, and under qualified to get in a pug...when you can get 910's with AotC why invite a 900 without one.

[potis]

Why? AOTC is pretty much proof that the player knows the fights. It really sucks when someone doesn't know a certain mechanic and dies/wipes the raid.

Stupidest comment by far.

AoTC means jack shit, maybe after they have killed the boss 5 times they have a clue, but AOTC itself means absolutely nothing.

At least 9/10 people that have AoTC but 1 or 2 Guldan kills by now have no fucking idea how the Guldan fight works and they simply bought it or got carried.

They know the basics, Inquisitor first, or eyes first, but they dont know what to do and when to maximize and to not cause wipes.

They do not soak, they tend to misplace flames or kill others and their DPS is atrociously low despite their 900 + ilvl.

I can tell you that for a fact by how many times i wiped back in February to get my AoTC with pugs and how obvious and bad are people with 1 HC Guldan kill versus people that dont have it but have like 10 weeks of 8-9/10 clears in NH.

Those players are 10 times better and will play better in order for stuff to die, compared to the delusional scrub that got carried.

I play in a casual guild, most people quit so i started pugging extras for our 1 raid per week and AoTC means jack shit.

Only thing that matters when getting a DPS as example is how many times they have actually killed shit.

I armory check everyone before i invite, i have given AOTC to about 12? people the last 3 weeks and have 1 shotted everything apart from a 0.1% wipe on Guldan on this Wednesday cause voila, melee dc's and gets flame at the same time.

Number of kills in the raid is more important than AoTC cause it means the person actually been there multiple times and has a fucking clue.

Armory checking is where its at, AOTC is just an indication its gonna be a wipefest on Elisande/Guldan, the only 2 fights that are actually a bit risky and can cause wipes in there with a pug at this point.